While Mosconi holds the "official" high run record, what made the man the best that ever lived was not his number 526, but rather his number 15.
Mosconi has the high run, or does he really ?
- Thread starter stevekur1
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I agree that 15 is impressive, but you may want to check out this.
It's a shame there are no films or videos of Mosconi in his prime. Greenleaf too, of course, but we've never seen Greenleaf, whereas we've seen plenty of Mosconi well past his prime playing in "legends" tournaments or against Fats. That was not the real Mosconi.
One big disadvantage Mosconi had in these tournaments is that he didn't pick up a cue unless he got paid and after the post-Hustler boom was over there weren't many paying opportunities, so he was rusty. Still good enough to handily beat Fats at those games, but not strong players that probably played all the time, like Lassiter or Jimmy Moore. And it wasn't straight pool either.
The closest thing on film to prime time Mosconi was his televised match against Jimmy Caras in 1963. He didn't distinguish himself, though he was sharked by the referee and missed a ball early in what could have been a good run. The referee was calling the balls and actually leaned over and pointed his finger at the ball just as Mosconi was shooting - he was shooting over a ball medium distance so it was very miss-able.
I understand he wasn't such a nice guy a lot of the time. That sort of came through in the two exhibitions where I saw him in the early 60's. I would say his attitude came off as "let's wipe the floor with this local hero, do the damn trick shots and get the hell out of here". I have no doubt that he could be a nice guy away from the table, but playing pool didn't seem like it was fun for him.
One big disadvantage Mosconi had in these tournaments is that he didn't pick up a cue unless he got paid and after the post-Hustler boom was over there weren't many paying opportunities, so he was rusty. Still good enough to handily beat Fats at those games, but not strong players that probably played all the time, like Lassiter or Jimmy Moore. And it wasn't straight pool either.
The closest thing on film to prime time Mosconi was his televised match against Jimmy Caras in 1963. He didn't distinguish himself, though he was sharked by the referee and missed a ball early in what could have been a good run. The referee was calling the balls and actually leaned over and pointed his finger at the ball just as Mosconi was shooting - he was shooting over a ball medium distance so it was very miss-able.
I understand he wasn't such a nice guy a lot of the time. That sort of came through in the two exhibitions where I saw him in the early 60's. I would say his attitude came off as "let's wipe the floor with this local hero, do the damn trick shots and get the hell out of here". I have no doubt that he could be a nice guy away from the table, but playing pool didn't seem like it was fun for him.
He ran 276 balls on a 10ft table. The amazing thing about that record is that Greenleaf supposedly rarely tried to go for high runs after a game ended. He would put on exhibitions day after day often running 125 and out and then stop the run and do a few trickshots. It was after a 125 and out that he had run that the spectators urged him to keep going and he ran 276. I have to believe if he had continued all those other 100+ runs that he would have had a 300+ or better run.
The record in tournament play on a 5x10 is by Joe Procita: 182 in 1954 against Mosconi.
Irving Crane was the first to run over 300 on a 5x10 in exhibition: 309 in Logan Utah in 1939.
Mosconi ran 309 in exhibition in 1945, then 322 (April 22, 1953, Platteville, Wisconsin) and 365 (November 13, 1953, Wilmington, North Carolina). It's not clear which of these exhibition runs were on a 5x10, although the 309 probably was. Mosconi comments in his biography that the 365 started with him breaking the head ball into the side pocket, so his opponent had no shot during the game except the lag. The run took "more than an hour and a half."
A high run of 355 is also listed for Mosconi in 1953 but without any other information and Mosconi does not mention it in his biography.
The longest run in any cue sport discipline was by Tom Reece in 1907 at English Billiards: 499,135 (unfinished). That was on a 6x12 table, but Tom was not using much of the table.
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I'm sure imop from old stories and seeing some rare footage and reading on the subject i take it that Greenleaf was the more natural player like a willie hoppe as opposed to Mosconis machine like cold calculated qualities...if he could have put down the booze i believe mosconi would have been a brides maid for much longer than he did....its a shame how Greenleafs life went down, dude was like a gotdam KING!:thumbup:
Hi-Run
Just my two cents worth to go with the Greenleaf thing.
A little story I remember reading goes something like this;
Joe Procita and Ralph Greenleaf were to shoot together in a few exhibitions matches, on a 5 X 10 table.
The first game started by Greenleaf winning the lag and having Procita break. From the break, there were a couple loose balls and Greenleaf ran 125 out.
The second game started much like the first game, in which Greenleaf wins the lag and Procita has to break. Again, after the break, there were a couple loose balls and Greenleaf runs 125 out.
So, the third game starts, and, as you may have guessed, Greenleaf wins the lag and Procita has to break. Needless to say, after leaving a couple loose balls from the break, Greenleaf runs 125 out.
375 balls on a 5 X 10 without a miss!
Just my two cents worth to go with the Greenleaf thing.
A little story I remember reading goes something like this;
Joe Procita and Ralph Greenleaf were to shoot together in a few exhibitions matches, on a 5 X 10 table.
The first game started by Greenleaf winning the lag and having Procita break. From the break, there were a couple loose balls and Greenleaf ran 125 out.
The second game started much like the first game, in which Greenleaf wins the lag and Procita has to break. Again, after the break, there were a couple loose balls and Greenleaf runs 125 out.
So, the third game starts, and, as you may have guessed, Greenleaf wins the lag and Procita has to break. Needless to say, after leaving a couple loose balls from the break, Greenleaf runs 125 out.
375 balls on a 5 X 10 without a miss!
Supposedly, Cranfield ran over 700 twice. I mentioned it to Irving Crane once, and Irving said he thought it highly likely, suggesting that Cranfiled may have had more 300+ runs in practice than any player that ever lived.
Charles Ursitti, who was Mosconi's business manager, claims that Moconi's "record" run was not his highest, but that as it came in a public exhibition, it is the one that is recognized.
Our sport does a very poor job of managing its records. Hopefully, our generation will fix this.
If and when John Schmidt sets a new record, thankfully, the fact that it on tape will not only ensure that the run is recognized, but the tape itself will offer the next generation of players a very valuable learning aid and piece of pool memorabilia. It is our bad luck that we cannot study footage of Greenleaf, Mosconi, Crane, Cranfield or Eufemia doing their best work.
The Wright brothers were the first to fly a heavier than air, man carrying aircraft, or were they?
Historical revisionism will never cease. It's too much fun.
Orville
Historical revisionism will never cease. It's too much fun.
Orville
If someone offered the equivalent of a million dollars in today's money to run 1000 balls back in Mosconi's day, I think he would of done it in less than five years and retired forever. I saw him at the end of his run, doing an exhibition at a place that also sold tractors and hot tubs, and he looked real unhappy...even as a kid I could tell he wasn't enjoying it.
Engerts 491 or whatever on a nine footer is probably just as good, Mosconi and others have almost certainly done better without unquestioned verification, but 526 is still THE number.
Put Willie on easy tables and throw golf pro level cash at him and I think he would do it. He ran so many 150 and 200 and outs and then just quit I think he had the talent. I can't imagine a golfer being 6 or 7 under on the front side quitting before playing the back nine...almost every time he was in that situation.
Regarding ten footers, if anyone has played on both, what difference in overall difficulty would you say an old school 5x10 has compared to the new, tight Diamonds being used today? 200 ball run on a standard old 5x10 would roughly be what on a Diamond?
I wonder if someone put a prize out there, maybe only 25k, to run a 527+ on film, if someone like Holmann, Engert, Schmidt wouldn't make a serious effort at doing it. If every AZ'er offered up 50 bucks (get the video free), Diamond tables chipped in, and maybe some other sponsorship, any chance this could happen?
Engerts 491 or whatever on a nine footer is probably just as good, Mosconi and others have almost certainly done better without unquestioned verification, but 526 is still THE number.
Put Willie on easy tables and throw golf pro level cash at him and I think he would do it. He ran so many 150 and 200 and outs and then just quit I think he had the talent. I can't imagine a golfer being 6 or 7 under on the front side quitting before playing the back nine...almost every time he was in that situation.
Regarding ten footers, if anyone has played on both, what difference in overall difficulty would you say an old school 5x10 has compared to the new, tight Diamonds being used today? 200 ball run on a standard old 5x10 would roughly be what on a Diamond?
I wonder if someone put a prize out there, maybe only 25k, to run a 527+ on film, if someone like Holmann, Engert, Schmidt wouldn't make a serious effort at doing it. If every AZ'er offered up 50 bucks (get the video free), Diamond tables chipped in, and maybe some other sponsorship, any chance this could happen?
Recollections of Mosconi
I was fortunate enough to see Mosconi in 3 exhibitions--two in one day, then a third a year or so later.
The first one, a matinee session, his opponent, a local player, broke and left Willie a long, tough shot. Willie drilled it in and ran to 57, at which point he scratched. When he got back to the table, he ran 94 and out, then asked the crowd if we wanted to see him go to 150. We did! So he did. Then stopped to do trick shots.
In the evening session, after 3 martinis and a bottle of chianti, he ran 150 from the opening break. Since this only took him about a half hour, he asked if we wanted to see 200. We did. And of course he did it. Then stopped to do trick shots.
The third time I saw him, it was about like the others. He ran 150 and out, extended it to 200, and did trick shots.
At the time, I was 17 and I'd been playing for about a year. It was 1967 and Willie must have been well into his 50's. The thing that amazes me when I think back, is he never missed a shot. Not one. The single scratch was his only mistake and I think that was freak kick. The other incredible thing was I don't recall any of his trick shots missing either. It was the first exhibition by a pro I'd ever seen, so I kind of thought they all made all their wing shots and other complex trick patterns.
In any case, I've had the opportunity to watch a lot of the great pool shooters. I lived in NYC for many years, so I got to watch Miz, Hopkins, Colavita, Ervolino and Makula (sp?), among others. I was very good friends with George Makula, and probably logged a thousand hours watching that tormented genius at work, including countless 100+ runs. And Ervolino, with his mesmerizing slip stroke, fascinated me too. I was also fortunate enough to be seated right above the table when Mike Sigel ran his 150 and out against Mike Zuglan in the semis of the US Open. So, believe me, I have seen a lot of incredible 14.1.
But I have never seen such mastery as Willie exhibited. The man never missed a shot in 3 exhibitions!
I was fortunate enough to see Mosconi in 3 exhibitions--two in one day, then a third a year or so later.
The first one, a matinee session, his opponent, a local player, broke and left Willie a long, tough shot. Willie drilled it in and ran to 57, at which point he scratched. When he got back to the table, he ran 94 and out, then asked the crowd if we wanted to see him go to 150. We did! So he did. Then stopped to do trick shots.
In the evening session, after 3 martinis and a bottle of chianti, he ran 150 from the opening break. Since this only took him about a half hour, he asked if we wanted to see 200. We did. And of course he did it. Then stopped to do trick shots.
The third time I saw him, it was about like the others. He ran 150 and out, extended it to 200, and did trick shots.
At the time, I was 17 and I'd been playing for about a year. It was 1967 and Willie must have been well into his 50's. The thing that amazes me when I think back, is he never missed a shot. Not one. The single scratch was his only mistake and I think that was freak kick. The other incredible thing was I don't recall any of his trick shots missing either. It was the first exhibition by a pro I'd ever seen, so I kind of thought they all made all their wing shots and other complex trick patterns.
In any case, I've had the opportunity to watch a lot of the great pool shooters. I lived in NYC for many years, so I got to watch Miz, Hopkins, Colavita, Ervolino and Makula (sp?), among others. I was very good friends with George Makula, and probably logged a thousand hours watching that tormented genius at work, including countless 100+ runs. And Ervolino, with his mesmerizing slip stroke, fascinated me too. I was also fortunate enough to be seated right above the table when Mike Sigel ran his 150 and out against Mike Zuglan in the semis of the US Open. So, believe me, I have seen a lot of incredible 14.1.
But I have never seen such mastery as Willie exhibited. The man never missed a shot in 3 exhibitions!
Good Read
I totally agree with you about Willie. He was the best player of all time.
Here is my story on how I met Willie.:
When I was 14 or 15 years old. My friend Alan & I would play 14.1 every day, b/c that was the game that everyone played in NY.
Anyways, Alan's father owned a big company and along with his partner. They received two invites to join a high dollar country club on Long Island.
Willie Mosconi was there to promote people into joining. Alan & I went and I said I was the son of the business partner. It worked and we got it. We had lunch with Willie and he treated us like Gold. Really talked to us a lot, maybe b/c we were the only kids there. At one point he said "now I am going to run 150 balls in a row without missing". Everyone was watching and he ran 150 and then put down his cue. It was unbelievable. Also at that time there was a beer commercial on Tv that Willie did trick shots as they talked about the beer. The last shot Willie hits the cue ball down the table, it hits the bottom rail, jumps up in the air and comes back at him like someone threw it at him and he catches it. My first question to him was how did you do that. He showed me how and I can do it but not like him with such return force.
I asked him how did you become so good. He told me that he lived in pool rooms everyday of his Life. He then stated that I should not do what he had done and it was best to go to school and get a good job. He told me that he never knew a pool player that was rich from playing pool. I never forgot what he told me and it did help in my Life. I will always have respect for men like that.
I totally agree with you about Willie. He was the best player of all time.
Here is my story on how I met Willie.:
When I was 14 or 15 years old. My friend Alan & I would play 14.1 every day, b/c that was the game that everyone played in NY.
Anyways, Alan's father owned a big company and along with his partner. They received two invites to join a high dollar country club on Long Island.
Willie Mosconi was there to promote people into joining. Alan & I went and I said I was the son of the business partner. It worked and we got it. We had lunch with Willie and he treated us like Gold. Really talked to us a lot, maybe b/c we were the only kids there. At one point he said "now I am going to run 150 balls in a row without missing". Everyone was watching and he ran 150 and then put down his cue. It was unbelievable. Also at that time there was a beer commercial on Tv that Willie did trick shots as they talked about the beer. The last shot Willie hits the cue ball down the table, it hits the bottom rail, jumps up in the air and comes back at him like someone threw it at him and he catches it. My first question to him was how did you do that. He showed me how and I can do it but not like him with such return force.
I asked him how did you become so good. He told me that he lived in pool rooms everyday of his Life. He then stated that I should not do what he had done and it was best to go to school and get a good job. He told me that he never knew a pool player that was rich from playing pool. I never forgot what he told me and it did help in my Life. I will always have respect for men like that.
In 1967 he would have been playing very often because new rooms had been opening since The Hustler came out, and he was the guy Brunswick sent to get the new room going with an exhibition. So he was probably as sharp as ever (he would have been 53 or 54 in 1967). But after that the boom soon ended and those new rooms started closing. By the time of the Fats and legends matches he had gotten rusty again, plus now he was 65 or more.
In one of the exhibitions I saw he played the Chicago city champion, and this guy was SLOOOWWW. George Fels writes about it in Mastering Pool. Willie was clearly irritated, and didn't play his best game. He won, of course. According to George, he lectured his opponent after the exhibition, saying he will never be first class unless he speeds up his game.
Thanks for the testimony on Willie.