Mosconi's high run and could the previous generation compete today

[ShootingArts]

good point!

IMO you are comparing apples and oranges, unless you can prove that the table Crane or Mosconi played on has same size pockets as today's pockets or cut style? big difference, many pool players weaknesses gets exposed when they are at snooker table due to pocket size and shap, not how big the table is.. in reality 14.1 , 95% of the times uses half of the pool table, any more then player is not playing the game right, or break too hard!

Naji,

Good point about playing a half table game as much as possible in 14.1. Bridge balls keep the shots shorter too. The main difference between the eight and ten foot tables is four feet or five feet, not eight or ten. On the other hand, rough numbers, you have half again the playing area on a ten footer compared to an eight footer. Since the same balls are used either table, you have slightly longer shots, far less congestion.

Hu

 

[JB Cases]

anyone who thinks an 8ft with buckets isnt way way way easier needs to go spend a week in Dallas. c players look like a players on those tables. if the pocket cuts are generous a good straight pool player might not miss for week. the idea that its tougher because of a smaller area is nonsense because a top straightvpool player manages the balls he leaves very little to chance.

 

[JB Cases]

The fourteen plus one thing leads to confusion. If I count it as fourteen ball racks some people say I am counting wrong, if I count it as fifteen ball racks some people disagree. I won't quibble over 34 or 37 racks though, not that important.

As for those that want to talk about crack pipes or such, I strongly suspect that they have never played under the conditions Mosconi routinely played under. Tables varied widely, all other conditions varied widely. I have played on the old tables, eight footers, nine footers, ten footers, and super eight tables, and played on them without climate control. I have played with clay balls and the older plastic balls. I have played on the directional cloth, enough of a change in itself to cripple one of today's players until they adapted to it.

Unlike people who haven't played under similar conditions to Mosconi, I can compare the two. Today's players are hothouse players, the western Europeans and US players at least. That definitely includes me. It is a whole lot easier to make shots and play in general now. Different world.

Willie Mosconi had to almost daily adapt to widely varying conditions and perform regardless of conditions. Just playing very similar equipment all the time gives today's players an advantage playing on that equipment. The ten foot Diamond still has the same pocket angles, the same cushion rubber and profile, the same quality leveling system as the nine footers. Still has nice lighting and nice climate control. I have played on Diamond seven and nine footers. No real changes to make because the pockets, cloth, and cushions play the same. The ten footer may have tight pockets and the longer distance matters but they are essentially playing under the same conditions as playing the Diamonds they play all the time.

As I have said many times, bring yesterday's players to today, and they would very rapidly be playing in their same position in the pool hierarchy. Bring today's players to the past and most of them would regain the same position they hold today but it would take considerably longer.

There was a hell of a lot more to learn when I started playing pool. A typical set of balls had several balls in it that played substantially different, you had to know those balls. the directional cloth made a ball curve one way up table, another down, and affected cross side shots to a lesser degree. Knowing the effects of lighting was important, some of the gaff tables I played on were gaffy just because of the angle of the lighting. Some gaffy just in the morning or afternoon. Shots could go with a door open that didn't go for the best players of the day with the door closed.

A lot more variables could come into play even fifty years ago and the variables had more effect because they were larger. Anyone who hasn't played under those conditions hasn't a clue just how much different it was.

A final note to an already long post: Still a lot of straight pool fans among the pro's. I'm quite sure some have tried runs on eight footers just to try to prove that if they shot on an eight footer then they could break Willie's record. Notice that none seem to have came forward with big numbers after trying on an eight footer? Most straight pool players dislike playing on an eight footer because of congestion and won't even attempt playing on a seven footer for the same reason.

(elvicash, I quoted you but obviously the first paragraph is the only part that is a direct reply to you.)

Hu

mosconi almost certainly played most of his exhibition games on brunswick tables with brunswick cushions and the cloth he was familiar with. he spent most of his career on the exhibition circuit working for brunswick and going to rooms outfitted with brunswick tables.

he was also very particular and would likely not have played on crap equipment. as well the room owners would have made sure that the equipment was in the best shape because willie was a star back then and would have been treated as such.

any long run is impressive. but it dims when equipment variables are taken into account.

if this were basketball and I increased the hoop size by 20% and subsequently set a free throw or 3point record using that larger hoop there would be universal condemnation from basketball fans and players.

 

[KRJ]

anyone who thinks an 8ft with buckets isnt way way way easier needs to go spend a week in Dallas. c players look like a players on those tables. if the pocket cuts are generous a good straight pool player might not miss for week. the idea that its tougher because of a smaller area is nonsense because a top straightvpool player manages the balls he leaves very little to chance.

Then put the money up, let's find a 8 foot gaffe table, and bring a case full of money.

The pockets are the least of someone's concerns for a big run. A poor break shot, bad position, miscue, focus, bad roll, bad luck, clusters, etc.,etc.etc. They all end runs early.

It's so easy, thus nobody can run 500 on that table... weird.

 

[one stroke]

I've played on a couple of the old tables used in tournament play in the ten foot era and they were not that tight.

Here's another thing worth considering. Balls per inning counts rose about 20% once they switched to 9 footers. That corresponded with the change from a race to 125, which was the norm on ten footers, to races to 150.

Comparing the DCC 14.1 challenge of 2013 to that of 2014, it took about 70 to qualify for single elimination in 2013, but this year it took, if memory serves, 108, and the sample size was huge and the players were the same, for the most part, both years. the guys ran almost 60% more on the smaller table with no change in pocket size. Thsi does not correspond to the perceived difficulty difference in my books.

Today's players can definitely break 526,and can also likely beat Cranfield's 768 in practice. Don't sell them short.

I keep hearing today's players can do it for 30 yrs yet it still hasn't been done ,,let's put them in a suit n tie ,,a old cue open up the pockets turn down the lights add smoke and turn off the A/C and have at it and see how it works out for them


1

 

[Str8PoolPlayer]

Didn't we just broach this topic ... over and over and over and over and over ?

"Talk is Cheap ... Money buys Whiskey".

(I'm likin' Willie more with each new thread).

 

[wrldpro]

facts & opinions

Wow guys after reading a little bit of a few 14.1 threads I am in shock and awl at the same time. I want to set in my opinion a few things straight that are obviously mentioned in to how they should be looked at.

If anyone runs 527 or more at anytime it will not be the record or someone who beat Mosconis record and they now have some type of all time highest run.
The only way to have the high run record is to run 527 or more in an exhibition or tournament setting which would only be in 1 of 2 places and that would be at the DCC 14.1 challenge or the SBE 14.1 challenge or another that is set up in the future that is an exhibition or tournament format.
A 527 run or more in a poolhall or someones home will only be considered to be compared to the same run as Babe Cranfields 768 and other runs over 526.I don't know how many runs there have been over 526 but im for sure its more than 10 not to mention also Mosconi ran 600 once and quit to go to Dinner.
Now as far as comparing equipment and conditions here are a few things to consider.
Years ago when Mosconi was playing equipment was way different.They played on slow cloth with cushions that didn't have as much response as todays tables.Cues and tips are much better today than back then.As for the pockets no one really knows who made how many balls on what size pockets but with Simonis cloth the balls slide much much easier into the pockets.
The players now playing on the very easy Simonis cloth shoot with open bridges and back in the days of the nappy wool cloth almost every player had a closed bridge because it required more stroke to move the cue ball around the table.
And lastly Mosconi and other players didn't go out of there way to make high runs with favorable conditions like in someones home in a small area where cool air can be pumped in the room to help the air conditions which helps tremendously with the balls spreading out and breaking apart from the stack easily.
Mosconi and others never had ball polishers and never removed any of the balls to be cleaned or polished with wax or silicone which again makes for an advantage to have the balls spread apart from the stack very easy.im not sure about a lot of the players from Mosconis era of pool but Mosconi wore a sports jacket most of the time not a t-shirt and flip flops or tennis shoes in a climate controlled environment.
So what im saying basically is there are to many variables on high runs so unless someone runs 526 in an exhibition without any added avantage than Mosconis record stays intact forever.

 

[lfigueroa]

that is a good question. what actual value would there be? paid invitations to tournaments? probably not.

motivational speaking gigs? probably not.

would people accept testimony that a run happened or would it need to be on video? if on video then i guess the player could possibly make a little money selling the dvd.

other than a point of pride and recognition i dont know what the record would be worth.

after all, the only reason it is a record is because of the affidavit. Mosconi was already famous for his tournament and challenge match victories.

Some things are not about money. Some things you just want to do because they need to be done

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Get a big prize it will be broken in a short time if by no one other than the chineese. They got skills for sure and we do not know the depth of the quantity of people playing pool in China/Tiawan. There are also great players in the USA and Eaurope who could do the the same like I said if there was a large prize. I do not expect such a prize to materialize anytime soon.

That being said I think the 526 will be beaten within 10 years on video because the game is being played more and talked about more and while it might not be a a mainstay tourney game with lots of events. I feel many of the elite players are practicing the game and can put out the 100+ run on the current tough equipment. I have the score sheets for DCC many of the elite players are running a 100 once or more in a single ticket at the Derby. Ralph ran 2 great numbers this year in less than a single ticket he did not take all his innings. Players are running balls on tough equipment, not sure they are great 14.1 players the strategy of today's players would probably not hold up to players of old but as far as running balls even on tough equipment today's players are at a high level.

People talk about Mosconi and his greatness. I wish I had seen him play, i did not. I have seen some video but all i have seen is either trick shots or stuff from later in his career no good video of him in his prime in actual competition. Without doubt he was great and his run 526 on whatever table was great actually super awesome. But that was the game of the day and he was actually paid a very good salary to tour around run pool balls, he wanted to run a 100 in each of his appearances and almost invariably he came with the run usually stopping at a 100 and going over to his trick shot show.

Now if we paid Neils or Ralph or John S a similiar wage probably $5k+/week these days I think they would all be able to come with a daily 100 pretty much on command, similiar to Mosconi. Just my opinion I think Mosconi was a very elite player head and shoulders above the players of his day plain to see from his tourney record he crushed players in long events pure dominance. But notice he did not play short sessions the super long format guaranteed the best to win. He was the best of his era. Not all players were allowed to play, It was invitational and short fields. We have the opposite today large field if you got the entry you can play. Rotation games to a short number 7,9, 11 whatever the best is not guaranteed to win any race or any event. Mosconi in a match to 1000 points was pretty safe and he put together a record of dominance. He has the highest recognized run. I know he was the real deal and he would have loved the modern equipment, all of the great players from back in the day would have loved this new equipment. They knew alot and did not share the knowledge like people do today. We have lessons, books, DVD's Youtube etc. People today play great and we have a lot less players there was pool room on every corner back then not so much today.

I think the 526 will be beaten and sooner than most think. Myself I will accept any run on video as being a new record no matter if the BCA or WPA or whoever recognizes it. Video will be proof enough for me.

Personally I wish Marop would get some fresh cloth and get John S to play 5-6 hours a day for 2,3 or 4 months on his Metro 9' table. I think the 526 could potentially be done by John if he decided to focus on it for a couple of months or more. I have seen him rain 100's like water on very tough equipment. Marops table is looser than a DCC Diamond so a lot more true straight pool shots can be played. I think John would very easily be 100+ every day (multiple times every day), 200+ every week and 350+ every month. Just my opinion would not take long for John to run a huge number. He has no reason to dedicate himself to such an effort but if he wanted it he could run that number and more.

If John doesn't do it himself that record will be beaten by someone from Euope or South East Asia and mark my words it will be done on video and sooner than you think and i say that because it is being practiced and videoed more than it being played as competition. More 14.1 is played today than 10 tears ago the game has returned I travel quite a bit and I see it played in pool rooms, practiced and taught. We have alot of that to thank Mr Bob Jewett and Greg Sullivan for the DCC event since then a few other events emulate that event. Bob spent alot of his own money sponsoring the high run event and Greg/Diamond along with others since then has stepped up to sponsor the DCC high run event and playoff tourney. Such an event will be the impetus of the practicing player who will eventually run the big number and hopefully it will be caught on video for all to see. I think it would be great for it to happen at the DCC or perhaps one of the other high run events lending that "official status" to the run. I do not expect that as the equipment at the Derby is usually pretty tough. All of those DCC 100+ runs are truly worthy of respect.

14.1 is the best 1 person practice game. Get a camera, run some balls maybe you can beat the Mosconi record if not I promise you will learn more about the balls than you ever did playing short rack rotation games.

If/when it gets done it will be because someone wanted to do it, not for the money, but for the satisfaction of proving to themselves they could.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

As several others and myself have already pointed out, not much monetary value, that's for sure. So they could sell a couple of thousand dollars worth of DVD's maybe, big wup. To set the record they would have to buy an 8 ft table (which will probably cost as much as they would make in DVD sales), and have it set up with similar bucket pockets. They would have to buy one or two video cameras if they don't already have them. And you can't just play perfect to get the high run record, you have to get crazy lucky with all the rolls too so they would have to be willing to go into it planning for the possibility that it may take months of 40 hour weeks to break this thing. And they have to make sure they are video taping every second of every moment at the table, making sure every run is caught non stop with no camera interruptions.

Or, instead they could be out playing golf, or doing whatever else they enjoy doing. And when they do want to play or practice, they could have most of their practice time be focused where it might actually help them win what little money there is in pool today. They would want to play on 9 ft tables, probably diamonds, because that will give them the most benefit towards today's tournaments since that is what they are mostly played on. And they would probably want to primarily play 10 ball or 9 ball, because that is what most of the tournaments are in and practicing the same game you are playing in tournaments will obviously be most beneficial for those tournaments. And if they wanted to mix it up, they would probably play one pocket since that is what the second most tournaments are in, and because that is one of the primary games they can find action in. The last thing they would want to be playing or that would give them any benefit is straight pool (extinct game) on an 8 ft table (used in zero tournaments and not enough challenge to do them much good) with bucket pockets (again no tournaments with bucket pockets and not enough challenge to do them much good).

So they could spend all that time, money, and effort trying to break a record in a game that has been dead for decades, to maybe make a couple of grand if they are lucky, or they could go play golf or do something enjoyable or when they are actually playing and practicing they could do it in games and on equipment where it might actually help them in the modern day events as opposed to wasting time playing a game that has been about extinct for decades on a table size that is used in zero tournaments and with bucket pockets that are used in zero tournaments and are a joke and do them little good for sharpening their skills. The decision not to pursue the record isn't rocket science. But if it ever is made worth their while, you will see how quickly it gets broken.

Yeah, no monetary value. I shall have to call up the US Olympic facilities and have them spread the word that not everyone, even if they win gold, will find themselves on a box of Wheaties.

Don't expect everyone to get it...

"When the Persian military officer Tigranes heard that the prize was not money but a crown [of olive], he could not hold his peace, but cried, 'Good heavens, Mardonius, what kind of men are these that you have pitted us against? It is not for money they contend but for glory of achievement!'"

Herodotus, Histories, 8.26.3

Lou Figueroa

 

[one stroke]

mosconi almost certainly played most of his exhibition games on brunswick tables with brunswick cushions and the cloth he was familiar with. he spent most of his career on the exhibition circuit working for brunswick and going to rooms outfitted with brunswick tables.

he was also very particular and would likely not have played on crap equipment. as well the room owners would have made sure that the equipment was in the best shape because willie was a star back then and would have been treated as such.

any long run is impressive. but it dims when equipment variables are taken into account.

if this were basketball and I increased the hoop size by 20% and subsequently set a free throw or 3point record using that larger hoop there would be universal condemnation from basketball fans and players.

Yes you are correct however today's players are playing in better lighting better cloth and a heat and humidity controlled environment and arguably better cues washed balls , smokeless rooms and such ,, a player or yesteryear would foam at the mouth to play in these conditions


1

 

[smashmouth]

please, watch Appleton's 200 ball run and try and tell me today's guys couldn't be competitive

 

[real bartram]

You believe equipment was better in the 1930's than in 2013? No air conditioning, no modern cue technology, no fast cloth?

What was the pocket size on the table Crane used to run 300? He was a vocal critic of tables with large pockets because he thought it gave weak players an advantage? Do you know for a fact the pocket size?

I would say Crane was at a significant disadvantage with the equipment he had when he ran 300 in the 1930's.

14.1 is not the game most good players play all the time now days
That's why the runs are not broke

 

[Bavafongoul]

526........Was that too fast for you?................5...........2............6.
Plus there was no air conditioning.....Willie had just driven hundreds of miles from a prior exhibition.....and he also didn't take any warm-up or practice.
And the cloth wasn't Simonis and the table was indeed a Brunswick, albeit 8', as Willie was contractually obligated to only play on Brunswick equipment.

All in all, a feat that's "Herculean" in scope by any standard and few players today have the gumption, brass or skills to even attempt tackling these old records.
Rest assured, all records are meant to be broken but only the "Crème de La Crème" of pool players have the ego, as well as the abilities, to go after breaking them.


Matt B.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Interesting and "endeless" thread as these kind of threads are.
Most of the arguments from every point of view are already presented, I would only like to point out that pocket size does not play such a significant role in straight pool high runs, it is rather the consistent manipulation of patterns in a good way, especially when one plays on slow cloth.
A smaller table has the advantage of not having to play too long shots but at the same time the disadvantage of offering narrower position areas.
Let's not forget that Mosconi did not miss in that run, he quit...
Regarding the comparison between players of different eras, I believe almost everybody would bet her/his money on the old timers in straight pool and new timers in 9ball etc ("as they were/are"..), still it's quite impossible to have an absolute outcome due to the vast condition differences.
I grew up as a player in the '80s - early '90s which I prefer compared to nowdays, and I have a feeling I would like even better to have lived in the era of the old timers, those guys played virtually under a huge variety of tough conditions without any hi tech equipment and performed very impressively, in a unique style.
Petros

 

[ShootingArts]

he played on brunswick tables

mosconi almost certainly played most of his exhibition games on brunswick tables with brunswick cushions and the cloth he was familiar with. he spent most of his career on the exhibition circuit working for brunswick and going to rooms outfitted with brunswick tables.

he was also very particular and would likely not have played on crap equipment. as well the room owners would have made sure that the equipment was in the best shape because willie was a star back then and would have been treated as such.

any long run is impressive. but it dims when equipment variables are taken into account.

if this were basketball and I increased the hoop size by 20% and subsequently set a free throw or 3point record using that larger hoop there would be universal condemnation from basketball fans and players.

As usual you take a little truth and wrap it in half truths, fancy, and fantasy. You are correct Mosconi played on Brunswick tables. You vary between half truths and outright fantasy from there in your posts. I suppose I should give you an attaboy for stating Willie played on Brunswick tables. That is more accuracy than found in most of your posts that I have read on AZB.

Hu

 

[naji]

Naji,

Good point about playing a half table game as much as possible in 14.1. Bridge balls keep the shots shorter too. The main difference between the eight and ten foot tables is four feet or five feet, not eight or ten. On the other hand, rough numbers, you have half again the playing area on a ten footer compared to an eight footer. Since the same balls are used either table, you have slightly longer shots, far less congestion.

Hu

Agree, but like JB said, re-wording, Players that are good of breaking clusters, and ensuring an insurance balls will always dominate the game, regardless of table size.

Agree, also longer shots has higher pocketing error rate, but usually in 14.1 the multi balls selection availability tends to eliminate the need for long hard shots most of the times..

 

[lfigueroa]

please, watch Appleton's 200 ball run and try and tell me today's guys couldn't be competitive

There is a huge gulf between running 100 and 200. There is a similar stretch between 200 and 300. Between 200 and 500... Well, I'll let you figure it out

Lou Figueroa

 

[measureman]

Mosconi 526
:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:
It will never end.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Nevertheless, this is great fodder for a riveting documentary. if I still had my film company, I would've been all over this ten years ago. With the advancement in high definition video on small portable cameras, you could literally follow five pros from around the world in real time as they attempt to break this record, all while compiling footage, interviews, and documenting history of the game.

It's riveting. Absolutely.

There was a documentary about seven years ago called "king of kong" which involved the world of competitive arcade game playing, and the all time records are kept by a website, where if you break a record you submit your video with no edits and it is judged and accepted. The movie documented the arcade version of Willie Mosconi, who has multiple high score records, and one is donkey Kong. With a challenger who set out to break the donkey Kong record. It's riveting but at the same time, opens up to a niche world of competition.

This could be done for billiards.