Moving Rings

opiesbro

opiesbro

Big Al Customs
Silver Member
So I made my first billets and after the first try cutting the slots I got it right. So I got them all cut up and installed with solid black phenolic and a metal ring on either side of the billet. As I was cutting them down to size with a carbide tool and then the dilemma came. The cutter did not cut the metal rings clean and pushed them to the point it moved and ruined the billet and other rings beyond saving. So I'm glad I made my slots a little long. Last night I started the process over with the intensions of trimming them this time with my router. I figure that will put less pressure on the metal rings and cut them better. Pictures are of the rings before I cut them off last night. As you can see I grooved the tennon to hold the epoxy.

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If you're going to trim metal rings with your cutter you have to take small passes and make sure it doesn't get hot. I let heat build up once long ago and it loosened the metal ring, epoxy got to hot.
 
Your carbide insert looks terrible.

Either it's the wrong type with no sharp positive rake to it, or it's really worn out.

I think it's the wrong one by the looks of it. You need a good insert made for aluminum.

Do a search for carbide inserts and you'll find what I'm talking about. The right cutter would make a world of difference.


Royce
 
RBC said:
Your carbide insert looks terrible.

The right cutter would make a world of difference.


Royce
Click to expand...

I agree on both counts. I use HSS cutters for this. If you are going to use carbide. You are going to have to get some really good ones.

Larry
 
RBC said:
Your carbide insert looks terrible.

Either it's the wrong type with no sharp positive rake to it, or it's really worn out.

I think it's the wrong one by the looks of it. You need a good insert made for aluminum.

Do a search for carbide inserts and you'll find what I'm talking about. The right cutter would make a world of difference.


Royce
Click to expand...

I will call a gentleman at Iscar and see if he can help me out. So is cutting them with a router any better?

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in my experience the best carbide cutter in the world is not going to cut as good as a properly sharpened hss cutter in this scenario. If your running one of the desktop lathes balls out then you definitely want to use sharp cutter. The one your using now is probably only going to just mow over the metal regardless of what you do with it.

I would suggest "i did, after this same situation" is to grab that $5 bag of aluminum rings and glue up some sacrificial test pcs. experiment with cutters, rpm and feed rate. Cheap knowledge.
 
From my experience your better off using a router. Ive had the same thing happen to me but never with a router.

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Were the phenolics the same OD as the nickel rings when you
glued them?
 
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Might try flat face and then screw in mandrill to hold rings in place and keep the expanding ring from expanding when cut.

Also no need to groove the tendon for better hold, just give .005 clearance for glue to bond and roughen inside of phenolic with sand paper or small file to break glaze. Have never had any complaints of rings falling off.
 
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Royce is correct about the insert. Look for the Aluminum cutting inserts with a 0.2mm radius. They have a lot less cutting pressure compared to the 0.4mm or 0.8mm inserts.
Well sharpened HSS is also very good.
If you are getting a lot of heat,ie you can not put your finger on the part when it is being turned, you have too much surface speed,(too high RPM), dull tool, too big a cut depth,wrong cutting geometry for the material type.
 
You are cutting your steak with a butter knife

Take the time to learn tool geometry, there is lots of info out there. The insert you are using was designed for cutting steel. The rake angles of that insert are all wrong for cutting soft materials. The general rule of thumb is the softer your material the more positive rake you need on the tool and greater the clearance angles. As well on inserts designed for steel the cutting edge is usually honed so it is not super keen. When cutting soft materials your cutting edge has to be sharp. Learn what is going on where the tool meets the material, it will help you tremendously.
 
opiesbro said:
I used Devcon 5 minute which I haven't had problems on rings like this before. I'm sure there is better epoxies for this.

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Throw it in the trash can.
5-minute and non-threaded narrow collar=hackery.

1/4 helical carbide end mill turns down rings spinning the other way like butter.
 
opiesbro said:
I used Devcon 5 minute which I haven't had problems on rings like this before. I'm sure there is better epoxies for this.

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Click to expand...

Al,

This is a great topic you are addressing and one every Cuemaker has to deal with or has dealt with. As they say we always learn from our mistakes not our sucesses. So it is good you ask the question and there has been some great advise and observations in the thread for you to build on.

Metal rings create heat when you cut them, file or sand them no mater what. The amount of heat they are exposed to is directly related to the sensitivity of the person doing the operation. This is one of many items I refer to in my Program Procedures as an HLA protocol or Hightened Level of Awareness Operation.

Single pointing with a dull cutter can and will cause silver to glow if the cutter hesitates for at all. IMO even sharp HSS or Carbide single pointing puts too much heat in a pin point area. Hysol epoxy has the highest heat resistance properties I know of and that is only 450 f. Good enough for space Shuttle work but not cutters that make too much heat. (Danger Will Robinson). LOL.

I use saw cutting machines to cut my butt and shaft tapers with very sharp carbide teeth and install metal rings on the cue when it is only about .020 over final taper pass. All passes to final are very light to keep heat to a lowest coeffienct as i possibly can achieve. Six wing cutters on a 20000 rpm router will produce the same type of results also. Even when I sand rings I don't stay on one ring area for more than 10 seconds with a very light touch. With metal rings, slow and steady wins the race. Once the expoy has been compromised with heat in a ring area you can bet money that that cue will have a ring pop in the finish down the road.

Also with cutting off ring to size on the lathe I have found that using and environmental cutting fluid Tap Free is the way to good, the metal with not light up from the carbide wheel and the wood or other material won't burn. There are no oils in Tap Free which is sold at Enco.

With metal rings slow and steady always win the race because with one false move you can soften the epoxy with heat.

JMO,

Rick
 
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opiesbro said:
I used Devcon 5 minute which I haven't had problems on rings like this before. I'm sure there is better epoxies for this.

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Click to expand...

I think you are asking for trouble with the 5 minute epoxy and the cutter.

When you are gluing two dissimilar materials, such as the metal ring and the phenolic, use the best slowest curing epoxy you can. There is a good reason why adhesive companies make epoxies with different cure rates...:deadhorse:
 
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