My little gripe with the APA, what do you think?

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was on a team for a few seasons playing only 8-ball as an SL7. I won the MVP title each season, and won the MVP tournaments a few times, losing in the regional. The last season I played, I won the MVP title again, went and won the MVP tournament again. The MVP regional tournament was 6 or 7 months away, and I decided to pay the $100 entry fee up front.

When I registered for classes at the college I go to, a class I needed was at the same time and weekday that I had league, so I told my team captain I needed to take the season off to go to school.

Several months letter, I received a letter in the mail telling me I was disqualified from the upcoming MVP regional event. I called up the league operator and asked her what the problem was, and she said I was not active on a team, and therefore I was disqualified.

I told her that if I had been warned about it, I could have easily hopped onto another APA team on a different weekday, as I know several team captains.
She told me that it's not the APA's responsibility to warn me, I need to read the fine print.

Fair enough. Even though I was never told I needed to remain active on a team within the 6 or 7 month time frame, I should have read the fine print

I asked the league operator if I could have my $100 entry fee back since I was disqualified, and she said "Nope, sorry" and hung up.

This was a little over two years ago. I never played the APA again after that. I didn't care so much about the $100, it was the principle of the whole thing.

What do you think? Should they have at least warned me before disqualifying me? Should I have at least gotten my entry fee back?
 
Several months letter, I received a letter in the mail telling me I was disqualified from the upcoming MVP regional event. I called up the league operator and asked her what the problem was, and she said I was not active on a team, and therefore I was disqualified.

I told her that if I had been warned about it, I could have easily hopped onto another APA team on a different weekday, as I know several team captains.
She told me that it's not the APA's responsibility to warn me, I need to read the fine print.

Fair enough. Even though I was never told I needed to remain active on a team within the 6 or 7 month time frame, I should have read the fine print

I asked the league operator if I could have my $100 entry fee back since I was disqualified, and she said "Nope, sorry" and hung up.

This was a little over two years ago. I never played the APA again after that. I didn't care so much about the $100, it was the principle of the whole thing.

What do you think? Should they have at least warned me before disqualifying me? Should I have at least gotten my entry fee back?

There isn't currently a warning program in place for LO's when someone who won a Singles Qualifier Board has done something to disrupt their eligibility for a Regional event. Many LO's qualify dozens/hundreds of players for the program twice a year. Attempting to track each and every player every week to make sure they are meeting all eligibility requirements would take away from the other responsibilities a League Operator has in running a business.

That's partially why all the rules are posted on the document you signed to compete in the event. To correct you or the LO who informed you, it's in BOLD print that you must stay active on a team in the format you qualified in, not small print.

It sucks that you lost eligibility, but I have known APA to pass the eligibility down to one of the players you beat when that does happen, so the spot typically does still get put to use.

There are numerous ways to qualify on a singles qualifier, and there are numerous prices depending on the amount of participants and the type of qualifier you are competing in. It would be impossible to track and refund each player who failed to meet the eligibility requirements.

At the same time, several players in each Regional either forget about the Regional event or decide they have something more important to do that day and don't show up for the event, and they don't get refunded either.
 
It's your captain's fault tbh for not letting you know this.

You need a minimum amount of games in order to participate in their singles tourneys etc.
 
I'm just confused as to your regional qualifier process. If you won the MVP tournament wouldn't you automatically get an entry into the regional for free? Around here they do have regional qualifier tournaments and if you win you can pay $100 to get in to the regionals. Personally I think that it is your responsibility to keep current as every team I have been on it is common knowledge that you have to have a minimum of 4 matches played each session leading up to playoffs and regionals.

The $100 return could be argued either way. I know BCA will give refunds on National tourney entries but charge you a $10 fee for paper processing.
 
If you are not entering, you should get your money back.

Sounds like someone got a $100 bonus.
 
She told me that it's not the APA's responsibility to warn me, I need to read the fine print.

I should have read the fine print

I didn't care so much about the $100, it was the principle of the whole thing.

Should I have at least gotten my entry fee back?

Sounds to me like you should have read the fine print, then found another team to play on that better fit your school schedule....if you really wanted to play.

Any action on the APA's part today...could be considered to be "special treatment":D;)

Glen
 
The only issue that I have with your story is how she treated you. I'm never a fan of "sorry" and hanging up, without even trying to be sensitive about the situation. Just not good business. Even if you have to tell someone something they aren't gonna want to hear, you can be a bit more sensitive to that person when breaking the bad news. That's how I handle my customers. They aren't going to like your answer, they sure won't like it if you're a jerk to them as well.

Of course, we don't know how your tone with her was, either....
 
APA gripe

A few years ago,I was playing in an APA 9ball singles qualifier@the local level. I won my first two roundsand when I got to the finals,the guy I was playing did not play on a 9 ball team.I asked him how could he play if he was not on an active team.He said if he won he would get on a team.The rules state you must be on an active team in the format in which you are playing. I asked the league operator about this rule.Her reply was "I have latitude with the rules".What are your thoughts on this?
 
Sounds to me like you should have read the fine print, then found another team to play on that better fit your school schedule....if you really wanted to play.

Any action on the APA's part today...could be considered to be "special treatment":D;)

Glen

Agreed. It was my responsibility.

But by principle, if they are gonna send me a letter in the mail saying I'm DQ'ed without warning, they should have sent a check for my $100 entry along with it.

After I won the MVP tournament, the league director told me I could pay my $100 entry immediately, or if I wanted, I could pay it right before the tournament, several months later.

I payed it immediately. It strikes me as a little dishonest, that another player in my position, had they instead waited to pay their entry fee until later, and they got DQ'ed, they wouldn't have had to pay the $100.

I don't care about the money, its just the principle of the whole thing that really irks me, if you know what I mean. :angry:
 
Bad L.O.

i would be willing to bet money our L.O. who runs a 150+ team league would have let you know without hesitation.
 
Agreed. It was my responsibility.

But by principle, if they are gonna send me a letter in the mail saying I'm DQ'ed without warning, they should have sent a check for my $100 entry along with it.

After I won the MVP tournament, the league director told me I could pay my $100 entry immediately, or if I wanted, I could pay it right before the tournament, several months later.

I payed it immediately. It strikes me as a little dishonest, that another player in my position, had they instead waited to pay their entry fee until later, and they got DQ'ed, they wouldn't have had to pay the $100.

I don't care about the money, its just the principle of the whole thing that really irks me, if you know what I mean. :angry:

Fine print or not, I still think you got the shaft in this situation. Especially since the LO offered to accept early payment.

They shouldn't accept anyones money until they know they are eligible to play. IMO.
 
Rubyron...He was "eligible" when he paid his entry. It was the fact that he skipped a session or two, that DQ'd him. It is common knowledge that you have to remain active (read: continue playing on a current session team) to participate in Regional and National APA events. That's part of their marketing ploy...keep people playing year-round (not a bad idea, as a business concept...but it hurts people who don't want to play all year). That said...'rules' is 'rules'! I don't agree with the "Sorry" and hangup, but as mentioned, we don't how his comments with the L.O. went either. I think cuetechasaurus is an okay guy, but I've seen a lot more 'whiny' 'pissed-off' attitude players, than I have seen "I could care less" League Operators. As a former L.O. myself, it is certainly not possible to keep track of the eligibility of all single's qualified players, unless you have a really small league area (less than 50 teams)...and it's definitely not the L.O.'s 'responsibility' to notify anybody. The computer program is what spits out ineligible players, not the L.O. themselves. Remember, all local data is sent in to the national office, on a weekly basis, and I believe (you current L.O.'s correct me if I'm wrong) that's where the DQ's are initially generated.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

They shouldn't accept anyones money until they know they are eligible to play. IMO.
 
I'd want the 100 bucks back.

They have the resources to notice that a player is inactive, and then send them a letter (probably a computer generated form letter). So why don't they have the resources to notice when you're not playing enough and then send a letter of warning a little earlier? And with this letter you are told you must participate in X more matches or you can't play... and if you're unable to participate, you must write or call within X timeframe to get your entry back.

There's no reason to charge someone an entry fee for a tournament they aren't playing in. I don't care how big the APA is, and how impractical it is to track each-and-every whatever. You don't take 100 bucks from someone and then chalk it up to "well, the system is just too big to worry about every misspent 100 dollar bill." Ten bucks, yes... 100 bucks? No. You find it. You get it back to me. There can't be THAT many entries into this MVP tournament. 100 bucks is more than a lot of people want to pony up even if they manage to qualify.
 
There are a couple of misperceptions in this thread, and I'd like to clarify how the singles program works.

It starts at the local level, with a tournament involving 4-8 players. The winner can advance to the regional level, if the qualifier board is processed by the LO and sent on to the national office. The LO has about a month to process the board and send it in.

The money for the board can be collected any number of ways. Each player on the board could pay an equal up-front fee ($12.50 if there are 8 players, as much as $25 if there are only 4). Each player could pay a per-match fee ($7 per match with 8 players, around $16 with just 4 players). The winner could pay the entire fee, so those who do not qualify don't pay anything. There are many other ways to collect the money, but the important thing is to collect enough to cover what has to be sent to the national office. The fee is for the local qualifier itself, it is not an entry fee to the regional event. There is no entry fee at the regional or national levels.

Some LO's incorporate singles qualifiers into their MVP tournament. Some of those who do so will pay the entire fee from the Player's Fund as part of the MVP program, while others give the winner the option of paying. If the winner chooses not to pay, the board is simply discarded and not processed/sent. In some cases, the winner is given some period of time (less than a month) to decide. There is NO option to pay at the regional site, because it is not an entry fee to the regional.

Once the board has been completed and the fees collected, the winner is given two tear-off cards, one to mail to the national office and one to keep. The one that's mailed notifies the national office that this player has won a singles qualifier and they should expect the paperwork and fees within the next month or so. This protects the player's eligibility, in case the board gets lost on the way to the LO (often the LO isn't the one running the board), or gets lost on the way from the LO to the national office.

The second card is kept by the player, and is called a "Regional Eligibility Certificate." It protects the player's eligibility in case there's a snafu at the national office and the player is accidentally left out of a regional. I have never seen this happen, but if it ever does the player is guaranteed an opportunity to play in a regional. On the back of this card, in print that's NOT fine, are the requirements for remaining eligible. There are only four requirements. (1) Notify your local League Operator that you have won a singles qualifier, (2) Remain a current APA/CPA member (pay your yearly membership fee), (3) Remain on the roster of a team in the format in which you qualified, and (4) Contact your local League Operator if you haven't received a regional information packet 30 days prior to the event.

That's it - four requirements. Actually, just three, if you consider that staying on a team means you will eventually pay your membership fee if it comes due before your regional. There isn't even a requirement to play another match before your regional. When I'm running the qualifier, I personally hand the winner the card and tell them to make sure they read the back. I specifically point out that they must stay on a team to remain qualified. I also tell them that if they fail to remain qualified, they will lose the money they paid.

A couple of months prior to each regional event (there are two a year, and the qualifying windows for those events close three months prior), the LO gets a list of players qualified from his/her area and is asked to verify skill levels and eligibility. It is then that we discover a qualified player failed to remain on a team. An entire session or more may have passed, at which time it is too late to "rescue" a player who couldn't read and follow the four requirements. Sometimes, it's only a few weeks, and in those cases I personally contact those players and do what's necessary to get them on a team. Sometimes that simply means finding a team with an open roster spot and contacting the captain to make sure they don't intend to fill that spot with a player who is actually going to play. Though I am not required to do this, I do it because the player paid money and wants to stay qualified. I can't speak for other LO's.

When the national office receives a processed board, they bill the LO for the fees. They have no idea how the fees were collected or how much the winner actually paid. Often times, neither does the LO, if they were not the ones actually running the qualifier. Regardless, the national office received the fees for literally thousands of boards, so imagine the hassle they would have to go through to refund different amounts to the hundreds (not exaggerating) of players who can't follow four instructions. Not that I'm saying they should, as the money was paid for the local qualifier, which actually happened.

As for the requirement to stay on a roster, it's not there to make sure APA "continues to get your money" for some period of time. The singles program is a benefit for APA members, and the national office often incurs a deficit to provide the program (yes, they lose money on it when participation is down, because they guarantee the payouts at nationals). As such, do you really think they want their loyal members to be knocked out at regionals or nationals by players who don't even play in the league? In addition, players who are required to remain on a roster tend to show up and play occasionally, so we as league operators get some data with which to gauge whether a player has improved since they qualified and should be playing at a higher skill level.

To cuetechasaurus, I feel bad that the LO responded the way she did on the phone. I don't know if she was reacting to your tone or not, but in either case she could have been a little more sympathetic. On the other hand, when that call comes in, there's really not much I can say except "I'm sorry, but there's really nothing I can do. You were informed of the requirements when you qualified and the money was sent to the national office months ago. You're free to contact them if you feel you deserve a refund."

By the way, most players don't know (even though it's printed right on the board) that the actual fee for a singles qualifier is $120. The LO is supposed to keep a portion of that as an "admin fee". The vast majority of LO's forego their portion of the fee to reduce the cost of the board for their players. In my area, we qualified over 200 players for singles a couple of years ago, before the economy went south. That's over $4000 in income that I gave up to keep my customers' costs down. It's not always about making as much as you can.
 
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One of the loopholes is that the Vegas Tournament covers two calendar years and not a full league year. If you qualify in the fall but don't pay your dues again or play in the winter too bad.
 
This happened over two years ago and you're just now posting about it? Sounds like you are still upset - glad you shared your story with us so you can get others perspectives on it (sounds like vast majority are with you on this).
 
I currently play in the apa, and was a local division rep for some time, untill recently when a similar situation occured. I was managing a small (7 team) division for apa on a volunteer basis. We had 7 teams and the league office really wanted me to hustle up another team to fill our bye week in the schedule. So, I find several others to form a team and we get the bye slot filled. The captain of our new team is a good friend of mine from local tournaments,etc. and immediately becomes a 7. The other members of this new team also play very well and they would like me to host a singles qualifier for our league. I set it up and we run a 16 player board, double elimination with 5 spots to advance to regionals. Knowing the players from the new team did not have enough games I called the day of the tournament to speek with out L.O. Unable to get a hold of them, I spoke to someone in the office who said these new players were ok to enter as long as they remained active (sending in money every week)on a team. So the tournament is held and the new capatin I mentioned is one of the 5 that win. Well after a while I get a call saying that I am to inform him and 2 others that they are dqed for not having enough games before the tournament. No refunds of their money. I argue that I had been told by the same office otherwise, they say too bad not our problem. I mean the main guy in question was a 7 do they think he is sandbagging? WTF I basiclly told them I wasnt going to be their go between for this nonsense and then informed them of where they could stick their division rep position. Long story short, this kind of thing happens and I just come to expect it from apa. I play for a team with some good friends and we have fun but thats because we all know not to expect anything from apa, once your money is in their hands that's where it stays.

Oh and in case you didn't guess- how many teams do you think we have this session? yea, not 8.
 
I currently play in the apa, and was a local division rep for some time, untill recently when a similar situation occured. I was managing a small (7 team) division for apa on a volunteer basis. We had 7 teams and the league office really wanted me to hustle up another team to fill our bye week in the schedule. So, I find several others to form a team and we get the bye slot filled. The captain of our new team is a good friend of mine from local tournaments,etc. and immediately becomes a 7. The other members of this new team also play very well and they would like me to host a singles qualifier for our league. I set it up and we run a 16 player board, double elimination with 5 spots to advance to regionals. Knowing the players from the new team did not have enough games I called the day of the tournament to speek with out L.O. Unable to get a hold of them, I spoke to someone in the office who said these new players were ok to enter as long as they remained active (sending in money every week)on a team. So the tournament is held and the new capatin I mentioned is one of the 5 that win. Well after a while I get a call saying that I am to inform him and 2 others that they are dqed for not having enough games before the tournament. No refunds of their money. I argue that I had been told by the same office otherwise, they say too bad not our problem. I mean the main guy in question was a 7 do they think he is sandbagging? WTF I basiclly told them I wasnt going to be their go between for this nonsense and then informed them of where they could stick their division rep position. Long story short, this kind of thing happens and I just come to expect it from apa. I play for a team with some good friends and we have fun but thats because we all know not to expect anything from apa, once your money is in their hands that's where it stays.

Oh and in case you didn't guess- how many teams do you think we have this session? yea, not 8.

If i were you, they would be less my team aswell.
 
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