My rant: Finals shouldn't be played at 1AM on a multi-day event

[fastone371]

Part of the problem is there are many players that just want to get as much pool into their weekends as possible, since they don't get that many chances throughout the year to compete. I know I'm not the only one that fits that description. So it's us pool binge seekers that create this late-night pool player environment. I know I'm guilty of being the last action match going at a bigger regional event, while the directors were watching us over our shoulders. Tin Man is just sort of on the other side of the fence, where he is actually planning out which professional events he wants to play in, and he wants to perform at his best there. Most amateurs, who are fueling the Derby atmosphere, just aren't in that same mindset. They're more thinking, how much pool can I get in before I go back to work on Monday? I think it's this mindset more than anything, that gives the promoters a long leash when it comes to scheduling matches late into the night.

Even if guys want to play into the wee hours of the morning how many are giving their best at the table after being awake for 20 hours? In one of our state tournaments I just finished beating my opponent who was exceptionally slow at 1:15 in the morning, my first match was at 9:00am, I incorrectly assumed that I was done for the night (or is it morning), I was wrong, Not only did I have to start another match at 1:30am against yet another player who was also exceptionally slow (I dont shoot real fast, I would never have a chance at speed pool) but there was another player done for the night or even weekend who decided that 1:30am was the perfect time to practice his jumping skills for 90 minutes 2 tables away. Talk about being irritated at starting late..........................

 

[CaptainBly]

I don't make it to many finals so maybe my input really doesn't matter but I'll give it anyway. I don't really see to big of a problem with slow play, not that it doesn't happen. Just, that the few players who do it seems to small to create the bigger issue. What I see as the 2 biggest factors are with the TD"s.

Not starting on time. Set a time and stick to it. Yes, there will be players trying to show up late. This might piss a few off and drop the entrants for a few weeks. The players will either learn that the expectation is to show up on time or they will not be able to play. This rule really needs to be enforced. In our area, a few favored players always seem to be running late. Way to often tournaments start an hour or 2 past the posted time.

Not keeping the tables full. Too often there will be open tables and players standing around while the TD is nowhere to be found.

 

[Bob Jewett]

At least it's their only job.
Amateur pool tournaments starting at 9am and finishing at 6am. Or the play until 3 or 4 am then, back up at 9am makes you rethink ever playing again.
Regardless of the reason, I hate it.

Have you ever gone up to the room owner and suggested how things could go better?

A main problem with a lot of tournaments is that they are double elimination. That's a format that's already guaranteed to be hard on everyone.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Have you ever gone up to the room owner and suggested how things could go better?

A main problem with a lot of tournaments is that they are double elimination. That's a format that's already guaranteed to be hard on everyone.

No. I've always felt that if I thought I could do it better nothing stops me from running my own. I've been to very well run double elimination tournaments that stop and start at 10am and 10 pm. When table/ player limit ratio is good I will play or just accept the conditions and do my best.

 

[APA Operator]

Not keeping the tables full. Too often there will be open tables and players standing around while the TD is nowhere to be found.

About 25 years ago I came up with what we in the APA call the "on deck" system. It's now used in many parts of the country. The first part of every tournament is spent waiting for tables. Eventually you transition to waiting for players, but in that first part you can call a second match to every table and tell them they're on deck. When the match currently playing on that table finishes, they're up. This means no idle time on any of the tables until you no longer have as many waiting matches as you have tables. It only buys us one extra match per table, maybe two, but it goes a long way toward appeasing those who are waiting, and it allows those on deck to time their restroom or smoke breaks better. It also puts two more sets of eyes on each table, so things like slow play can be spotted sooner.

Speaking of slow play, it is the number one reason, by far, that tournaments get behind schedule. You really have to spot it early and address it before it gets out of hand. I think shot clocks are impractical for bigger events. Chess timers are doable, but you have to be willing to call the match no matter how close it is to being over and sometimes declare the winner to be the guy who's way behind. But pretty much any way you address slow play will make you some enemies, so if you can't handle being the bad guy don't run tournaments.

Only in pool is "table" considered a unit of time. "When am I up?" "Three more tables."

 

[DDiabolico]

How do you address slow play? I know that somewhere there's a rule how it should be addressed, but without implementing a shot clock mid match, who's job is it to stay at the table and tell the slow players to 'speed up'. Does it make a difference if someone plays slow on purpose or if someone's just a slow player?

 

[chefjeff]

Finals at 1AM is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the spectators. The promoters/tournament directors are 100% responsible and it should not be socially accepted by the pool community.
(snip)

Great post for a BIG chronic problem in pool.

Pool tournaments need a climax.

Without it, I mean really, who cares?



Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

Alex is the worst when it comes to walking around the table. There’s a member of OnePocket.org that’s almost just as bad about circling the table. I watch him in the members only tournament and want to tell him to get off the pot and shoot. I often think that part of it is sharking.

Send him to the 1-p is so slow thread.....We can deal with him there.

When we get time.



Jeff Livingston

 

[ddg45]

Finals at 1AM is not fair to the players. It is not fair to the spectators. The promoters/tournament directors are 100% responsible and it should not be socially accepted by the pool community.

Filler won the Big Foot, took top 10 in both the Banks and the One Pocket. He had played between 35-40 matches of pool over the week, with an increased pace towards the end of the week. Round 6 started at 9AM on Saturday and I believe he played at 9AM (He was a 'tbd' and they said all tbd's played at 9AM). I'm not sure exactly but he had to play somewhere between 7-9 matches, again, starting at 9AM. After playing his heart out all day, every day, all week, match after match, he makes the finals of a major event. The culmination of a titanic effort and performance, he won a right to play for the title! And they are going to kick off the match at when? 12:30AM?!?!?!? This was the first time I've ever seen Josh look tired at the table. Normally his secret weapon is a high energy level, bouncing around the table and leaping over adversity like Tigger. The Josh I saw had zero gas in the tank. (EDIT: I just learned he shot a .778 TPA in the finals. This from a guy that was posting 900+s on a 10' all week!!!)

As for spectators it is almost as bad. I was fortunate that my friend and I had front row seats. Almost SJM quality. We wanted to see the finals, but it was so late, and we were so tired it wasn't nearly as fun. We almost left, but we kept talking each other into staying. It felt like a couple of kids having a slumber party and trying to stay up all night watching the Star Wars trilogy. The only reason we decided to stay is we figured Filler/Sanchez-Ruiz would make for a fast match. If Roland had won we'd have had to leave.

I've played in many finals of local tournaments that started after midnight and felt the same way. The number of spectators for a smaller event drops from 25-30 down to 2-3 at most. The players play worse. It is a total joke. My last Midwest 9 ball tour event I made the finals of the one pocket. It was my best finish ever. I really wanted to win the thing. We had been playing one pocket and 9 ball until 4:45AM (night one), 4AM (night two), and returning back by 10 or 11AM to play. On day three I was so tired I could hardly keep my focus. I was playing 9 ball matches on Saturday night at 10PM, they called another at midnight. I was down 3-0 but I knew if I just could finish that one match I could be done, so I dug deep and came back and won. It was 1AM on day three. I was so relieved.

Then they told me I had to play my one pocket match. Right now. At 1AM. They said the 9 ball would go all the next day back to back and we'd have no time, so we'd have to play it now. Do you know what it's like to contemplate having to DOUBLE DIP a guy playing one pocket sets at 1AM when you are totally sleep deprived? I played terrible and felt helpless and hopeless. I worked hard for my shot at the title and feel I never got my shot.

I've also seen many tournaments get so far behind that the final 4 players just do an equity chop and go home. Unbelievable.

And we as a pool community seem to accept this. Isn't there a point at which we draw the line? I mean, if the finals were at 7AM after having played for 22 hours, would we still just shrug and say 'Well, sometimes that happens, lot's of players, the TDs are doing their best...' Where do we as a pool community draw the line? We don't. We've become complacent.

It's almost as if the players are considered the shock absorbers to any scheduling mishaps from the tournament directors. Like 'We'll try to set up for a 10PM finals on Saturday, we'll shoot to have round six done by Friday night before midnight, but hey, if we get behind we can always call 11PM and 9AM matches and make the winners play 15 hours on finals day...' PLAYERS ARE NOT SHOCK ABSORBERS. You can't sabotage the experience and performance of the players who support the event because you can't run a tournament correctly.

People talk about growing pool all the time. This doesn't help folks. I have had so many students tell me they don't play many tournaments and the #1 reason is they either don't have the stamina or don't have the time because of how late they run.

This is one thing Matchroom does really well. You don't see a Mosconi Cup or US Open finals at 1AM. Bravo! The same for Mike Zuglan at Turning Stone. Again, Bravo! It's not impossible folks to run a tournament. It can be done. You simply have to make it a priority. You have to leave room for reality, for slow matches, for delays. You can't fill the bathtub to the top and then climb in or you'll have water on the floor. This is stuff we should be able to figure out at age 2.

Why is this happening? Are TD's totally incompetent? Are they getting paid off by the venue if they can trap the players and audience there another 4 hours?

And why are we allowing this? Are we just numb to it? We don't have alternatives? We are desperate to play? We don't know how to stop it? Or is the group of pill popping drinkers that want to party all night greater or louder than the rest of us?

I don't know y'all. I've seen enough. I don't play a lot of events anymore for this reason. Derby is different, I have zero chance to play in the finals so it doesn't impact me directly (except as a spectator which doesn't hurt the same). So I can still play Derby, Turning Stone, the US Open, etc. But I know which ones don't treat the players right and I have a firm boundary against those. Life is too short and hard enough, I don't need any CIA sleep deprivation interrogation tactics to play for a few hundred dollars.

You all can agree or disagree, you can run your tournaments as late as you want. I'll keep filtering the ones I participate in and I'll be ok. I just thought it was totally violating to Filler, I think it's unacceptable, and I hold our pool community responsible for accepting it and not making a big enough fuss to hold the TDs and promoters accountable.

By the way - I love the Derby, the people there worked SUPER HARD and individually they all deserve medals. I think most players had a great experience, it was only the last few matches that were impacted. Unfortunately those are the most important.

Couldn't agree more. Same with a lot of APA leagues where regular matches go on past midnight every week. Part of it is to make sure the host bars get their money in extra drinks, etc. but it still sucks if you go to work the next morning.

 

[Maniac]

Couldn't agree more. Same with a lot of APA leagues where regular matches go on past midnight every week. Part of it is to make sure the host bars get their money in extra drinks, etc. but it still sucks if you go to work the next morning.

My APA league starts a 7:00 and is over between 10:00 and 10:30, sometimes earlier. Each team is assigned one table and after the first match concludes, we start playing matches on both tables after the first or second match. This really speeds things up.

For those unaware, it is a rule in the APA that if there is a table available, then the two teams MUST split tables two hours after league begins. So, if your league starts at seven, then at nine-o'clock matches must be played on both tables.

If one team does not want to split tables, it's tough-shit for them because the rule is "MUST split tables", although we rarely have a problem with opposing teams not wanting to split tables. Most of the players are working people and don't want to be up all night at the hall/bar.

 

[APA Operator]

Couldn't agree more. Same with a lot of APA leagues where regular matches go on past midnight every week. Part of it is to make sure the host bars get their money in extra drinks, etc. but it still sucks if you go to work the next morning.

Actually none of it is that. All of it is slow play. If you walk in on a late match and ask why they're still playing, they will always point to the score sheet where two 2's played 60 innings or two 6's played 20 defensive shots each. But when you show them that following the time guidelines STILL gets them done by 11, and ask again why they're still there, they have no answer. The 2's stand there and stare at the table for minutes, then call a time out if they have one, and the 6's think they get extra time if they're playing defense. The 2's need to learn that they don't always need to make the perfect decision. Over time, their decision making will improve - that's part of being a 2. The 6's, believe it or not, need to learn the same thing - make a decision and live with the results. Timely thinking and decision making is part of your skill set, and often needs to improve. Fear of failure should not cause you to play slowly.

 

[chefjeff]

Actually none of it is that. All of it is slow play. If you walk in on a late match and ask why they're still playing, they will always point to the score sheet where two 2's played 60 innings or two 6's played 20 defensive shots each. But when you show them that following the time guidelines STILL gets them done by 11, and ask again why they're still there, they have no answer. The 2's stand there and stare at the table for minutes, then call a time out if they have one, and the 6's think they get extra time if they're playing defense. The 2's need to learn that they don't always need to make the perfect decision. Over time, their decision making will improve - that's part of being a 2. The 6's, believe it or not, need to learn the same thing - make a decision and live with the results. Timely thinking and decision making is part of your skill set, and often needs to improve. Fear of failure should not cause you to play slowly.

Good point. I played a slow guy last night late. I sped him up with my play. I don't think he knew what I was doing to his rhythm. He was a good potter but not a good player, yet.

I decided to play fast and loose, as it is called, and went for shots, etc. that I normally might not have done. I won by speeding up the game and everyone was happy to have us finish the last match at about 11 pm, I think. I'm too old for this shit. My bedtime is 8:00.


Jeff Livingston

 

[APA Operator]

How do you address slow play? I know that somewhere there's a rule how it should be addressed, but without implementing a shot clock mid match, who's job is it to stay at the table and tell the slow players to 'speed up'. Does it make a difference if someone plays slow on purpose or if someone's just a slow player?

This wasn't addressed specifically to me, but since it immediately followed my previous comment on slow play, I'll answer it. In team events, we handle it with a "soft" solution. At a certain point in the round, we change the format to speed up the round. If your team allowed the match to get to that point, you're as guilty as whomever caused it, so you have to pay the price too. The format change is one that nobody likes, but still determines the winner by play on the table. In singles events, we address it directly with the problem player(s), starting with a conversation and following up by keeping them busy until they catch up, with no breaks (except the occasional bathroom break). Eventually they ask for a break and the answer is "play faster and get ahead, then you can have a break". On the rare occasion, we have to take a stopwatch to their match, and very rarely we have to penalize them with ball-in-hand to the opponent. It only takes one such incident to speed them up - usually all it takes is for someone to show up with the stopwatch. But to take this action, you have to be willing to be the bad guy and follow up.

There's really no difference between someone who's just a slow player and someone who plays slow on purpose, if the latter does it all the time. If they don't, you let them know that you've seen them play faster and you suspect that they're intentionally slowing the match down. That usually does the trick, once they know you're onto them. For those who are chronically slow, you have to stay on them and occasionally threaten them with a shot clock or chess timer. I bought a chess timer years ago and have never had to use it, but I do occasionally threaten to use it.

 

[kling&allen]

What I've seen in local amateur tournaments is the TD is friends with everyone (which is good) and the odds of one of the 50+ players running late is 100 percent. "Bob had a rough week and will be here in about an hour.....John called and is having problems with his truck, he will be here in 2 hours.....Steve didn't know the tournament was today and is on his way now......".

The time solution is of course to tell these players "too bad," and quickly move through the Calcutta without waffling over players that no one cares about. "Steve pay your 20 dollars for yourself unless anyone else speaks up right now.'

But that means, at least in the short term, losing entrants and making people angry.

 

[JusticeNJ]

In at least two local tournaments that were held on weekedays that routinely pushed past 12AM - wasn't unusual for the finals to not even be played. The players would just split it and go to bed (or the diner).

 

[dardusm]

I think Derby initially began with the Johnston City tournaments in mind. Bringing players together for the tournaments but the real heart and soul was the action that was created by the collection of players. Over the years, it has morphed into a more about professional pool raising the race to of 9 ball to 9 instead of 7 to be included in points and such which increased the time to finish the events. Moving it to a casino with more restrictions to the action and age limits, etc. I'm not sure what the right way to improve it would be other than change the buy back format, improve the turn around, limit the fields? It is now a major event that still wants to keep its roots.

 

[maha]

two ways to do it. raise the entry fees a lot so less enter and you get more money and it makes it more exciting.

or if going to have re entries allowed, make those matches very short and the re entry higher.

and of course let the t.d. give a warning for slow play and disqualify if not sped up. and tell all entries slow play gets you sent home.

 

[Black-Balled]

If it's too loud, you're too old!

For evert person who finds 1am late there is another who finds 11am early.

Bike racers who work late hours complain about the 8am races. Whaddya gonna do?

 

[TheLoneSilencer]

Pool players whine about everything....

 

[Tin Man]

Thats right Filler. Suck it up buttercup and play matches from 9am to 2am the next day after 10 days of continuous play. If you can’t handle that you don’t deserve a title says the internet.

I want to take a moment and thank the lurkers on the forum who reach out to me from time to time and thank me for posting. You are the reason I go through this.