My Take On So Few Big $ Match Ups

[Johnnyt]

I believe there are a few reasons that we don’t see or hear of big money match ups anymore. #1 I believe it is the nitty way most top players want to have the nuts 100% of the time. #2 IMO is the players have just about run out of stake horses that are willing to take a chance after being dumped or other business by so many players. You keep biting the hand that feeds you, then you are going to go hungry. Before you flame me I don’t mean ALL players dump and such, but most on here will admit that there has been many stake horses burnt over the years. #3 is the poor economy has finally caught up with stake horses. #4 is that the internet/ AZ Billiards chat, and cell phone cameras they are trying to keep it off the radar from the IRS when they do match up for big money. Johnnyt

 

[Ken_4fun]

I believe there are a few reasons that we don’t see or hear of big money match ups anymore. #1 I believe it is the nitty way most top players want to have the nuts 100% of the time. #2 IMO is the players have just about run out of stake horses that are willing to take a chance after being dumped or other business by so many players. You keep biting the hand that feeds you, then you are going to go hungry. Before you flame me I don’t mean ALL players dump and such, but most on here will admit that there has been many stake horses burnt over the years. #3 is the poor economy has finally caught up with stake horses. #4 is that the internet/ AZ Billiards chat, and cell phone cameras they are trying to keep it off the radar from the IRS when they do match up for big money. Johnnyt

I have told this before and Ill tell this again.

Louie Roberts went down to Shrevepoint to play Buddy Hall, got beat, got more money, played again, got beat, and did it another time. Lots of folks here in Memphis knew Louie well and he was the house pro at the pool hall I play at here.

For Louie money meant nothing, he wanted to win. He wanted to be in action, thought he could win and would bet his last nickel on it.

I heard the same thing about Keith and Buddy too. Buddy would bust them and they still thought they were better and went got more money and came back for more.

They guys today, IMO, compete at the woofing game. Lots of folks on here seem to enjoy the barking but there isn't going to be a game.

Then even more, as noted above, nobody wants to give up a spot to make a game.

Keith had a shirt, "The World Has the 7 Ball", Buddy mentions how he gave up the 8 and then the 7 to world class players.

I just don't see guys giving up a spots. Everyone says nobody will gamble, but I don't see many folks wearing a shirt like Keith.

Ken

 

[APA BRIAN]

I guess we have to assume that the premise of the OP is valid. I mean I guess by asking that, you are inherently suggesting that you personally know that they aren't happening? Hard thing to keep track of Nationally and Globally I imagine. And how many were actually taking place in past decades as opposed to now?
Back to taking the question at face value. I believe the internet a lot to with concentrating the action to certain places and events. I know we all desperately (myself included) want pool to have a shot in the arm. Something that resembles (by billiard standards) poker in 03'.
As soon as an amateur practicing in his garage wins the World 9 ball title, we will have just that :wink:

We are in a smarter world now, a more calculated world. We want it to be like the movies...Bet 5 thousand, no make it 10. Wait my backer is here...make it 30. Maybe at the DCC, but then and now I think those times were few in the overall picture. Betting thousands of dollars on a game of pure skill? I mean... If keith McCreedy had 100's of hours of Buddy Hall destroying people on YouTube would he be so apt to throw thousands of dollars at him?

Its not just a different game, its a different world.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I'm putting my money on reason #3. :smile:

 

[Ken_4fun]

I'm putting my money on reason #3. :smile:

Really?

Wow.

Ken

 

[boyersj]

The gamblers money have moved to casinos which are literally everywhere now. Poker rooms across the country have those same gamblers getting into a game that they feel is more fair. That is my opinion!

 

[Ken_4fun]

The gamblers money have moved to casinos which are literally everywhere now. Poker rooms across the country have those same gamblers getting into a game that they feel is more fair. That is my opinion!

I think this is a big part of it. I really thought when the found out how video poker was cheating a lot of folks that it would have an effect but to me it really hasn't.

I know some guys (family) that are terrible poker players and they go to casinos and gamble. Only thing I can guess is, there must be some guys that are worse players than these guys because they keep going.

Ken

 

[TheBook]

The gamblers money have moved to casinos which are literally everywhere now. Poker rooms across the country have those same gamblers getting into a game that they feel is more fair. That is my opinion!

A old time player that I know use to play in big time money matches back in the 50's in Detroit. He said they would have games going for $20,000 and up. I asked about where the money came from because that is a lot of money today and was a ton back then. He said it was all business owners. People that owned auto dealerships, supermarkets, construction, machine shops, gas stations, bowling alleys, department stores, bars, and etc. He said that there was very limited gambling options back then and pool was available around the clock. He said the problem today is there are too many gambling options for big pool games to be like they use to be. The same thing is happening to horse racing that was the other option back then.

Think about the pool players that will win money and then go to a casino and blow it.

.

 

[Badbeat13]

Nitty,nitty,nitty

I'll go with reason #1, but I'm not talking about just pros. There are a lot of nits out there, but they may have a good reason for their nittiness. That good reason would probably be that they don't have very much money to begin with. Therefore, the bet's going to be on the low side. Funny thing is, if you give them the nuts they'll want to up the bet. It figures..........nit.

 

[Tokyo-dave]

I think it's a dying breed of a type of person and his or her mentality. The one thing I noticed in my 20 years in Japan, and the 5 years I've been back in the states, is that for the most part the players that are willing to play for the larger amounts of money are the guys that are broke all the time. The types that can come up with thousands of dollars with a phone call, yet can't afford car insurance, sleep on a buddy's sofa, no gas money to get to the next game and so on. And when they happen to win, I still see no change in lifestyle. It's a certain breed of people that live day to day on the absolute edge, and are not at all uncomfortable with their situation. Seems like those types have dwindled through the years.
Dave

 

[Montana Mike]

Everything is so damn much money now. There is no way to build up a stakehorse without luck and the stars aligning. High expenses & very limited easier action = unhappy stakehorse. No way a stakehorse wants to be firing a big chunk with a player who is 45-55% the favorite because he has to cut in the player too so he is laying odds off his return. Most of the people who have money figure out the percentages pretty quick and with the games so tightly matched up nowadays anyway quickly find more entertaining ways to make a profit. When every game seems to be within a half ball the player has to win 75% of his matches for the stakehorse to break even and I don't see that happening. Then assume that the stakehorse wants to make money and it gets even rougher trying to figure out how to keep the access to money going.

 

[King T]

All of the above!

if the players had any money of there own, ever.., it would help the gamble

 

[JCIN]

Every game in a casino gives a backer better odds than staking a pool game. When you go in a casino you dont have to fade being called names, laughed at, threatened, intimidated, or generally fvcked with. Unlike the vast majority of pool action. Now that there is a casino within driving distance of almost everyone in the US its no surprise the gamblers fled the pool rooms.

The only guys I know who stake pool now for any real money do it for recreation as much as anything else and then only rarely.

As for players betting their own I cant think of many who could bet $10K or more cash if they had to. Which is not a shot at players as I would bet many people on this forum (me included) couldn't put together $10,000 cash without borrowing or selling something. It's hard out there.

 

[Ken_4fun]

Every game in a casino gives a backer better odds than staking a pool game. When you go in a casino you dont have to fade being called names, laughed at, threatened, intimidated, or generally fvcked with. Unlike the vast majority of pool action. Now that there is a casino within driving distance of almost everyone in the US its no surprise the gamblers fled the pool rooms.

The only guys I know who stake pool now for any real money do it for recreation as much as anything else and then only rarely.

As for players betting their own I cant think of many who could bet $10K or more cash if they had to. Which is not a shot at players as I would bet many people on this forum (me included) couldn't put together $10,000 cash without borrowing or selling something. It's hard out there.

You are probably right. But do you think there is less now than years ago?

Schmidt has offered he will play for money.
Bartrum seems like it isn't a big deal
SVB, appears to have no end.

I think there are some broke a$$ pool players, but I think more of it is there are some that have some and don't put it in action.

Keith, Louie, Ronnie, etc may not have had tons of it but whatever they had it was in action.

Ken

 

[The Saw]

Theres only a small group that are actively looking to match up, bet high, and bet their own..... SVB, Bart, Hennessey, Oscar, are about it. All of them give weight to the rest of the pros in the heart department.

 

[Tramp Steamer]

Really?
Wow.
Ken

Yes.
Since the crash of '08 our fair city (a combined metro area of over four hundred thousand) is down to only one pool room, and business there is slow.
Very little action is seen these days, and certainly not enough to warrant anyone backing a player. A twenty dollar game now is big-time. :smile:

 

[Nostroke]

Every game in a casino gives a backer better odds than staking a pool game. When you go in a casino you dont have to fade being called names, laughed at, threatened, intimidated, or generally fvcked with. Unlike the vast majority of pool action. Now that there is a casino within driving distance of almost everyone in the US its no surprise the gamblers fled the pool rooms.

The only guys I know who stake pool now for any real money do it for recreation as much as anything else and then only rarely.

As for players betting their own I cant think of many who could bet $10K or more cash if they had to. Which is not a shot at players as I would bet many people on this forum (me included) couldn't put together $10,000 cash without borrowing or selling something. It's hard out there.

Not to mention, if you have to scramble to get up whatever amount, You shouldn't be betting that amount.

 

[JCIN]

Not to mention, if you have to scramble to get up whatever amount, You shouldn't be betting that amount.

Yup. Agree 100%

I know of exactly one pro player that bet all his own in a $10K+ match. My experience is a small sample for sure but it is an indicator. I have seen many amateurs bet nutty money on themselves.

Many players talk as if they are betting their own but when it comes time to put it on the light you can be sure there is a HIGH probability a corporation is involved. If a guy rolls up a good score and is playing on house money then they will keep firing. But to reach in their pocket and post five figures of all their own cash is rare based on what I have seen. By seen I mean was there and knew what was going on. Not read on the internet or heard fifth hand at the back of a pool room.

The corporation approach offers some benefits over one guy firing all his own.

 

[JCIN]

You are probably right. But do you think there is less now than years ago?

Schmidt has offered he will play for money.
Bartrum seems like it isn't a big deal
SVB, appears to have no end.

I think there are some broke a$$ pool players, but I think more of it is there are some that have some and don't put it in action.

Keith, Louie, Ronnie, etc may not have had tons of it but whatever they had it was in action.

Ken

Schmidt doesn't bet his own. At least not that I have seen. Its not a knock. Rule one in Hollywood is never use your own money to finance a film. I'm sure in the right spot he would. He is good with money as well so he could actually do it if he wanted to. I've just never seen him do it before.

Bart will send it in. He usually has a corporation involved. Which is smart on a lot of levels. Like any risk based deal it spreads out the risk, allows more bites at the apple and sometimes allows for opportunities that one guy on his own couldn't finance.

SVB often has played with backers. He can and will bet high on his own. Lot of times it just depends on what the game is and the particular situation. Shane likes money though and he has learned that if he bets his own he doesnt have to give anyone else money. A simple but powerful thing to learn it seems.

I would consider all three of the above guys much smarter than players who would just bet whatever is in their pocket because they had some need to be in action. Just firing to fire never impressed me.

 

[Fatboy]

i bet my own.....