Natural ability VS. Trained ability

[quitecoolguy]

I guess i dont really follow the natural talent vs natural ability. They both deal with performing a task. To me talent jus means you are more likely to do it a bit better from the start than others. Both talent and ability need to be honed and sharpned. I have seen where a person with the ability to do something, put in the hard work and extra effort , because they were not fortunate enought to have that slight edge with talent, surpase another with talent, simply because he wanted more.

Desire plays a major part in the equation. With out the presence of desire ..the two run pretty much neck and neck. I have to give you credit ..it was a great question to ask. I have often wondered why some of the local players in my city are better than me. Is it because they gamble and play under presure. Is it becasue they dont work real jobs and practice hours upon hours.

Well i can at least say this. I have been practicing for about 2 to 5 hours a day for 3 months ..give or take. I can see a huge diffrence in my game and my outlook on the game. This may sound funny but it is almost as if a haze or fog has been lifted off the game. Things start to just make sence. Angles, point of contacts, spot on the cue ball..its like i had it all along but just couldnt retrieve it every time, when i needed to. Now my confidence is sky high and my faith in myself to make the shot is very strong...really a weird feeling.

 

[JB Cases]

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.

What makes you think that Efren's ability is not trained? He freely admits to lots of practice and study. He says that to learn a lot of the incredible shots he knows he spent time watching bangers do unexpected things and then practiced those shots until he could do them on purpose.

I think almost everyone can excel at pool given the right circumstances and the right mindset.

Pool is a combination of acquired skills and cognitive reasoning. A deficiency in either will limit your range. I guess one could see the ability to quickly acquire skills and the ability to make sound judgements quickly could be considered innate abilities.

So by that token the answer is no, someone with limited ability to understand and execute concepts on a pool table will never be able to be as good as someone whose ability to do the same is virtually unlimited.

However I would never tell someone that they had limited ability to learn to play high level pool. That is for each person to understand themselves.

I know that there would be a lot more Efren Reyes caliber players if all of them grew up under the same conditions that Efren did as far as pool is concerned.

Most of the truly great champions started very young. And this holds true for just about any endeavor.

 

[Rich93]

Most of the truly great champions started very young. And this holds true for just about any endeavor.

I was waiting for someone to say it. Most top players started very young and devoted much of their youth to playing the game. In the old days when there were a lot of pool rooms, the champions frequently had fathers who owned a room and they were playing from a very early age (Greenleaf, Mosconi, Jimmy Caras, and not so long ago, Jean Balukas). Just like kids learn languages much more easily than adults, they also learn the angles, the caroms, and the feel of the game much more easily. Discouraging, huh?

Starting early is not enough - you have to have devotion too, and good players to learn from and imitate. And there are exceptions to the rule. I can't name them offhand, but some top players didn't start until they were adults, or at least fully grown.

A late starting adult can definitely become a really good player if they're dedicated enough, though that kind of dedication comes hard to an older person. Much easier for a kid - what else have they got to do? Oh, yeah, school. But I don't think most champions let school interfere with their pool.

 

[ironman]

I was waiting for someone to say it. Most top players started very young and devoted much of their youth to playing the game. In the old days when there were a lot of pool rooms, the champions frequently had fathers who owned a room and they were playing from a very early age (Greenleaf, Mosconi, Jimmy Caras, and not so long ago, Jean Balukas). Just like kids learn languages much more easily than adults, they also learn the angles, the caroms, and the feel of the game much more easily. Discouraging, huh?

Starting early is not enough - you have to have devotion too, and good players to learn from and imitate. And there are exceptions to the rule. I can't name them offhand, but some top players didn't start until they were adults, or at least fully grown.

A late starting adult can definitely become a really good player if they're dedicated enough, though that kind of dedication comes hard to an older person. Much easier for a kid - what else have they got to do? Oh, yeah, school. But I don't think most champions let school interfere with their pool.

I think there are a few who might take exception to your statement here. Such as Mizerak, Varner, Jeremy Jones, Grady, Freddy, SJD, and many others who seemingly atriculate their point or points quite well. Let's give the pool plyers a break though as their educations are given to them either as in the NFL, NBA, and MLB, where most speak and exhibit the IQ of a carrot.

 

[Scott Lee]

Tony...Surely you must believe that part of your confidence comes from the fact that you have a more repeatable stroke now. You didn't have that when I worked with you...and through dedicated practice now you do. IMO, that counts for a lot, when you're "feeling" like things make sense, and are coming together. I believe that a repeatable stroke is the absolute first thing someone needs, for any kind of permanent improvement in their pool game.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I guess i dont really follow the natural talent vs natural ability. They both deal with performing a task. To me talent jus means you are more likely to do it a bit better from the start than others. Both talent and ability need to be honed and sharpned. I have seen where a person with the ability to do something, put in the hard work and extra effort , because they were not fortunate enought to have that slight edge with talent, surpase another with talent, simply because he wanted more.

Desire plays a major part in the equation. With out the presence of desire ..the two run pretty much neck and neck. I have to give you credit ..it was a great question to ask. I have often wondered why some of the local players in my city are better than me. Is it because they gamble and play under presure. Is it becasue they dont work real jobs and practice hours upon hours.

Well i can at least say this. I have been practicing for about 2 to 5 hours a day for 3 months ..give or take. I can see a huge diffrence in my game and my outlook on the game. This may sound funny but it is almost as if a haze or fog has been lifted off the game. Things start to just make sence. Angles, point of contacts, spot on the cue ball..its like i had it all along but just couldnt retrieve it every time, when i needed to. Now my confidence is sky high and my faith in myself to make the shot is very strong...really a weird feeling.

 

[androd]

I was waiting for someone to say it. Most top players started very young and devoted much of their youth to playing the game. In the old days when there were a lot of pool rooms, the champions frequently had fathers who owned a room and they were playing from a very early age (Greenleaf, Mosconi, Jimmy Caras, and not so long ago, Jean Balukas). Just like kids learn languages much more easily than adults, they also learn the angles, the caroms, and the feel of the game much more easily. Discouraging, huh?

Starting early is not enough - you have to have devotion too, and good players to learn from and imitate. And there are exceptions to the rule. I can't name them offhand, but some top players didn't start until they were adults, or at least fully grown.

A late starting adult can definitely become a really good player if they're dedicated enough, though that kind of dedication comes hard to an older person. Much easier for a kid - what else have they got to do? Oh, yeah, school. But I don't think most champions let school interfere with their pool.

HAROLD WURST; started late, completely mastered the game easily and quickly. nobody was his equal. died young.
PS; "school" i resemble that remark."champion" no resemblence.

 

[ShootingArts]

natural talent for pool, gifts, vs desire/hard work

Natural talent for anything isn't required to be the best in the world.

A most amazing statement that most will disagree with. However more than one olympic champion has started off being terrible at what they won a gold medal at. Sheer determination and persistence carried them to the top.

Efren's only gift above the average man might be a nimble mind. The other things he had were an early introduction to pool and the view that pool could better his life and his family's life. I strongly suspect that he could have been equally successful in dozens of other areas with an early introduction and the same intensity of focus.

Good hand eye coordination helps most physical activities. A natural grasp of how the balls will move helps in pool also. However nothing is more important than the desire to succeed and the persistence to make it happen. Most people of average abilities can rise very near to the top in most physical activities if they devote their lives solely to that goal. The degree to which each diverts their resources from that goal, and the physical starting advantages of a few, determines each individual's actual ranking.

Many a top performer in the world has credited his success to perspiration not inspiration or gift. Reading the stories behind the success of champions in physical activities it isn't unusual to find that before they reached their greatness they had illness, major injury, or even just a lack of physical gifts to spur them on.

I myself have demonstrated amazing coordination and reflexes for a few moments or minutes at a time, doing the seeming impossible. Many people have came up to me and wished they had my physical gifts. That is hilarious because the one thing I was noted for from infancy through my early teens was my clumsiness! I was also perhaps the most inept pool player to ever pick up a stick. Bad doesn't begin to describe my early efforts. However I rose to shortstop speed, meaning nobody in the world could be certain of defeating me on a given night on my home turf. I have every reason to believe that I could have risen higher but a realistic look at the world of pool indicated that it offered the lowest chance of success for anyone of any of the areas I could move forward in. Being a practical person I wrote off any ambitions towards making a career in pool.

My greatest, perhaps only, "gifts" are a hard head and a stubborn persistence to keep trying when most would quit. That has often been all that was needed to succeed over the "naturally gifted".

Hu

 

[john schmidt]

hi

everybody on here could play golf like tiger,basketball like jordan,baseball like mantle,run like lewis,box like tyson, screw like holmes play pool like archer all they had to do was practice as much as those guys . natural ability has nothing to do with it . ha what a joke

 

[poolplayer2093]

everybody on here could play golf like tiger,basketball like jordan,baseball like mantle,run like lewis,box like tyson, screw like holmes play pool like archer all they had to do was practice as much as those guys . natural ability has nothing to do with it . ha what a joke

you hit the nail on the head with this one. without natual ability there's only so far you can go

 

[cajunbarboxplyr]

everybody on here could play golf like tiger,basketball like jordan,baseball like mantle,run like lewis,box like tyson, screw like holmes play pool like archer all they had to do was practice as much as those guys . natural ability has nothing to do with it . ha what a joke

LMAO John!

 

[kaznj]

There are two main school of development. Nature (natural talent), and nuture (learn to do). I believe most developmental psychologist believe you need both to achieve.
Some people have a gift for what they do. There are many baseball players who practice practice practice. These guys will not turn in ARod. He is blessed.
Someone mentioned here that Joe Tucker had minimal talent. Maybe that is why he is such a good teacher. He studied the game. He learned what the eyes and body need to do to reach a certain level of proficiency. Many of the great ones, in any area, just see it. They don't need to understand why.
Do you actually think that there are no players out there practicing as hard as Tiger Woods or Johnny Archer. These people just see it. I have heard that Johnny is rare in that it comes naturally to him, and he can teach.

 

[Rich93]

HAROLD WURST; started late, completely mastered the game easily and quickly. nobody was his equal. died young.
PS; "school" i resemble that remark."champion" no resemblence.

I agree that Harold Worst was the best of the best, and he does appear to have had a late start. As near as I can tell from R.A. Dyer's article on him, Harold Worst took up billiards seriously when he was about 17. He progressed very rapidly apparently, because Dyer also says:

In 1949, according to The Grand Rapids Press, "Worst had followed in Hoppe's steps as a 'boy wonder,' having set a record for youth when at the age of 21 he became the youngest player in history to qualify for world championship play." He placed second in that year's national tournament and then fourth in the world meet.

That's 3C billiards he's talking about. Worst became the world's 3C billiards chamption at age 25. Then 3C died out in the US and Worst began to play pool seriously, and became probably the best at pool also. Amazing. It was a real loss to the game when he died so young (from cancer).

I didn't mean to sound snide in my earlier post when I said that future pool champions didn't let school interfere with pool. What I meant was that excelling at pool was more important to them than excelling at school. I'm pretty sure the same was true of Tiger Woods, Bobby Fischer, etc. in their games.

 

[ShootingArts]

could be . . .

everybody on here could play golf like tiger,basketball like jordan,baseball like mantle,run like lewis,box like tyson, screw like holmes play pool like archer all they had to do was practice as much as those guys . natural ability has nothing to do with it . ha what a joke

John,

I kept a player many consider the best ever sitting on his ass until his ass got so sore he quit me. I didn't do it due to natural talent, I did it by staying on a pool table 60-80 hours a week for years.

I also set a record that many better pistol shooters had chased for fifteen years. One man acknowledged as simply the best in the world for decades was one of the ones chasing that record for years. Several more were Grand Masters or became Grand Masters. Some were professional shooters or went on to become professional shooters shortly afterward. A perfect score was 600. Dozens of 598's and 599's had been shot. Nobody could break the six hundred barrier until a common joe did. I did it not because I am a great pistol shooter but because I am a seasoned competitor and I bring those attributes to anything I do. Once I tore down the 600 barrier in only my second or third year of pistol competition many more were able to follow in my footsteps. However, after fifteen years of intense effort by more "gifted" shooters as far as any reasonable person would view things, I shot the first perfect score. I shot another record that stood for several years, my first competition back from major back surgery and long before the doctors OK'ed me bending over to pick up my own fired brass. Every person in the match had superior physical gifts to me at that point in time.

The person with lesser physical gifts may have to work harder to succeed but saying that you can't succeed with average physical abilities because someone else is gifted with superior physical abilities is a cop out. A lower starting point simply means you have to work harder, sometimes a lot harder.

I do understand your post however. I have often stated that an ego is needed to be a top competitor too and you are a top competitor in anybody's book.

Hu

 

[john schmidt]

John,

I kept a player many consider the best ever sitting on his ass until his ass got so sore he quit me. I didn't do it due to natural talent, I did it by staying on a pool table 60-80 hours a week for years.

I also set a record that many better pistol shooters had chased for fifteen years. One man acknowledged as simply the best in the world for decades was one of the ones chasing that record for years. Several more were Grand Masters or became Grand Masters. Some were professional shooters or went on to become professional shooters shortly afterward. A perfect score was 600. Dozens of 598's and 599's had been shot. Nobody could break the six hundred barrier until a common joe did. I did it not because I am a great pistol shooter but because I am a seasoned competitor and I bring those attributes to anything I do. Once I tore down the 600 barrier in only my second or third year of pistol competition many more were able to follow in my footsteps. However, after fifteen years of intense effort by more "gifted" shooters as far as any reasonable person would view things, I shot the first perfect score. I shot another record that stood for several years, my first competition back from major back surgery and long before the doctors OK'ed me bending over to pick up my own fired brass. Every person in the match had superior physical gifts to me at that point in time.

The person with lesser physical gifts may have to work harder to succeed but saying that you can't succeed with average physical abilities because someone else is gifted with superior physical abilities is a cop out. A lower starting point simply means you have to work harder, sometimes a lot harder.

I do understand your post however. I have often stated that an ego is needed to be a top competitor too and you are a top competitor in anybody's book.

Hu

it seems with your story that you should have little problem competing with the best in the world at pool or anything else .
all you would have to do is try real hard. maybe you have tons of natural ability which is my point all along.
by the way after i had played pool for 2 years i was running over 200 playing 14.1.
i got so good so fast it was nuts and the same for the other pros.after i had played pool for say 3 years i would have gladly played you in your prime.anyway i understand it is easier to convince yourself that you coulda woulda shoulda been a world champ but you just didnt feel like it.
be serious please.
also i find it interesting that you broke records in shooting but at pool after playing your whole life you at best were by your own admission a shortstop

to me that clearly explains which endeavor would be harder to excel at.
i guess on all the golf forums people say i could have been on the pga tour all i would have to do is practice. so i cant really fault people on here saying the same about pool .its human nature.



tom simpson told me an interesting story . he said he had a pro baseball player in one of his classes. he said ballplayer was beginner just like the other 7 students. they all were bad and after 3 days ballplayer was way better than everybody else. i think the reason is clear. he had tremendous body awareness,agility,balance,overall coordination and brains.
he almost certainly could have been a world class poolplayer or world class anything that has to do with a ball and stick.
tiger woods could have been great at pool or other sports too..




its no accident i played 6 years of all star baseball , shot in the sixties 100 times at golf and play pool like i do.
i got very good very quick at all 3 things that i showed interest in and thats from natural ability whatever that is.


i will say this, all natural ability will do is get you to the top quicker. you can be untalented and still get there it just takes you much more work. in closing if anybody out there thinks they will be world class at something, trust me they will know it in a hurry and so will everybody else around them.it doesnt take 20 years

 

[shinigami]

it seems with your story that you should have little problem competing with the best in the world at pool or anything else .
all you would have to do is try real hard. maybe you have tons of natural ability which is my point all along.
by the way after i had played pool for 2 years i was running over 200 playing 14.1.
i got so good so fast it was nuts and the same for the other pros.after i had played pool for say 3 years i would have gladly played you in your prime.anyway i understand it is easier to convince yourself that you coulda woulda shoulda been a world champ but you just didnt feel like it.
be serious please.
also i find it interesting that you broke records in shooting but at pool after playing your whole life you at best were by your own admission a shortstop

to me that clearly explains which endeavor would be harder to excel at.
i guess on all the golf forums people say i could have been on the pga tour all i would have to do is practice. so i cant really fault people on here saying the same about pool .its human nature.



tom simpson told me an interesting story . he said he had a pro baseball player in one of his classes. he said ballplayer was beginner just like the other 7 students. they all were bad and after 3 days ballplayer was way better than everybody else. i think the reason is clear. he had tremendous body awareness,agility,balance,overall coordination and brains.
he almost certainly could have been a world class poolplayer or world class anything that has to do with a ball and stick.
tiger woods could have been great at pool or other sports too..




its no accident i played 6 years of all star baseball , shot in the sixties 100 times at golf and play pool like i do.
i got very good very quick at all 3 things that i showed interest in and thats from natural ability whatever that is.


i will say this, all natural ability will do is get you to the top quicker. you can be untalented and still get there it just takes you much more work. in closing if anybody out there thinks they will be world class at something, trust me they will know it in a hurry and so will everybody else around them.it doesnt take 20 years

Those 3 things are my favorite things to do and am good at! (though not at your level) Friggin weird!

 

[wahcheck]

Thanks Mr. John Schmidt...

everybody on here could play golf like tiger,basketball like jordan,baseball like mantle,run like lewis,box like tyson, screw like holmes play pool like archer all they had to do was practice as much as those guys . natural ability has nothing to do with it . ha what a joke

Thanks for coming on here and giving the forum a professional's opinion.....I was going to say something similar to this, but I think your opinion carries more weight.....I believe it's a fantasy for someone to achieve pro level ability without the natural talent, just by practicing like a monk for hours on end...same as all your examples in other sports listed above.....It also goes with what Mr. Irving Crane was quoted as saying...."although good practice and good instruction can help a player get better over time, there is a natural, inherent talent that either ya got, or you don't..."

Amen to that.......

 

[quitecoolguy]

Its funny My family is very blessed. There are a few people on here that know my family and can attest to this. As a Capers (my last name) I was blessed with the ablity to do almost anything well. It doesnt matter if i have never done it, in a very short time I will be doing it better than the average person. My brothers are the same way. John knows me from Diamond Billiards in Richmond Va. Im a BIIIG guy..but i am verrry fast for my size. I can still move pretty quick, I surprise so many people in races or just joking around. My brother cedric had enough skills in Basketball to play at the NBA level..but ended up having a baby and just working at decent job to support his family.

Now it was due to his Capers genes that he had the ability to make 15 to 20 three pointers in a row and im not kiddding over 40 free throws at any given time. Hell Ced was about 5 ,7 and had a vertical that would scare you...Im 5, 11 1/2 and at one time he could stand one step infront of me and could take that one step and verticaly jump over me putting his hands on my shoulders. (He has played a NBA player and was told that he had the talent to be there when he was in college)

My baby brother Amory has a CIAA baseball ring on four fingers. He is an incredible baseball player..heck my dad was a legend around where i live in both Baseball and pool. So i agree with the concept that natural ability exist. I can play basketball, just not as good as cedric, Hell i could kill a baseball, but dont have the skill that my baby brother Amory has. They both are great pool players...but i excelled at that more than they did. I didnt choose pool...pool chose me..I saw i was better at it than the other two so i dug into it.

The funny thing about it was that my baby brother Amory began putting in a ton of practice, more than i could , and he actually for a while got better than me. However if we put in the same amount of time of practice. I beat him

 

[quitecoolguy]

Tony...Surely you must believe that part of your confidence comes from the fact that you have a more repeatable stroke now. You didn't have that when I worked with you...and through dedicated practice now you do. IMO, that counts for a lot, when you're "feeling" like things make sense, and are coming together. I believe that a repeatable stroke is the absolute first thing someone needs, for any kind of permanent improvement in their pool game.

Haha as always Scott, the devil is in the details. You are correct the issue of a repeatable stroke is part of that confidence. I still use many of the things you showed me during our session. If my poor broke azz had more money I would have learned so much more through you than spending the hours upon hours at my table till my legs gave out. I am actually getting ready to restart working with the some of the mother drills..especially the speed drill. Im am getting better at getting settled with SPF but it hard some time when i get on a roll to not to free wheel and let it flow..but your effort and words have not been forgotten buddy :thumbup:

 

[nor_daens]

Roger Banister?

by ShootingArts:

"Once I tore down the 600 barrier in only my second or third year of pistol competition many more were able to follow in my footsteps."


Interesting that on 6 May 1954 Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile. After that day other begin to emulate that feat. Perhaps there is a mental barrier that once personally broken or even known to be broken frees up others to do likewise.

The mental aspect needs to be considered also. And does it have something to do with ability natural or otherwise?

I have often heard that luck favors those who prepare and practice.

 

[SmoothStroke]

Natural

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.

Natural abilty is very simple.
Eye hand coordination plain and simple. Some possess more and others less.
The people that have more usually pick up anything that requires motor skills more quickly. The people with less have to work harder. Both can achieve any goal there is.

It's funny how a simple question has turned into guys hitting golf balls 6 miles and how great I am at this and that when all you asked was a simple question. Some love to hear themselves talk and need reassurance.
What a joke

I personaly liked IRONMANS post where he refers to education and the IQ of a carrot, talk about hitting the nail on the head.