Natural ability VS. Trained ability

john schmidt said:
also if someone around the booth starts talking stupid like you and saying i could be as good as you all i have to do is play as much.
i wont have to tell them anything the people standing around will tell them they are smoking crack. get a life please
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I think everyone starts off feeling they can play like the pro's! Once they start putting the time on the table, some soon see they can't, others it take a few months, some years, and a few were right!

I know after playing a very short time I did compete in a pro event and even beat a couple. If I played every day, who knows... until then though, I'm one of the crack heads saying I could win. I think as a pro, you should encourage them. Help them believe they are the next Mr. 400 or maybe 500. Let them burst their own bubble.
 
Not worth arguing about

bankshot76 said:
I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.
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People do not have "natural talent for pool" per se. What the great ones have is great muscle memory, great memory of position/tracks, great hand-eye coordination, the ability to understand the geometry, concentration, and the ability to control their body/know what their body is doing" to minute detail. This doesn't even take into consideration practice, fundamentals, pool knowledge, etc.

These attributes are useful in survival and any sport/action that takes hand-eye coordination and "ability". Our body wasn't designed for pool anymore than it was designed for basketball or driving cars. Those activities were designed based upon our bodys.

There are a lot of bad drivers out there. They don't pay attention, they don't "see the road" correctly, they don't handle the car correctly, etc. Can this be learned? Can it be learned well enough to be a successful NASCAR driver? I don't know, but I believe it can.
 
I agree with John's 'your born with it comments.'


IMO, pro's have natural mechanics. They line up without much effort from day 1 or day 2; & therefore, are able to focus on other aspects of improving their game. Their mental side allows them to give an extra 1 or 2 % when needed that others can't manage. This is the difference between being great and being amazing.

IMO, Others can learn to play well mechanically although it will take longer. In most cases, they will not become world class.

I remember watching several young players learn the game many many years ago. One that comes to mind as natural is Andy Quinn. He may not be a world class player but I watched him escalate from a C+ player to an A player in an extremely short time frame compared to everyone else in town at the time. John said that his game escalated more quicly than others within two years & I saw the same thing happen with Andy.
 
Bandanna Joe said:
I agree with John's 'your born with it comments.'


IMO, pro's have natural mechanics. They line up without much effort from day 1 or day 2; & therefore, are able to focus on other aspects of improving their game. Their mental side allows them to give an extra 1 or 2 % when needed that others can't manage. This is the difference between being great and being amazing.

IMO, Others can learn to play well mechanically although it will take longer. In most cases, they will not become world class.

I remember watching several young players learn the game many many years ago. One that comes to mind as natural is Andy Quinn. He may not be a world class player but I watched him escalate from a C+ player to an A player in an extremely short time frame compared to everyone else in town at the time. John said that his game escalated more quicly than others within two years & I saw the same thing happen with Andy.
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thank you joe ,exactly what im saying.
 
ndakotan said:
There are a lot of bad drivers out there. They don't pay attention, they don't "see the road" correctly, they don't handle the car correctly, etc. Can this be learned? Can it be learned well enough to be a successful NASCAR driver? I don't know, but I believe it can.
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This is my field of expertise and I guarantee you that this cannot be done.
 
I'm starting to enjoy this thread. John's a natural at smack talk, too. And some of these other guys are naturals at woulda-coulda-blowhardism.

As for me, after years of therapy, I finally decided to forgive my parents for not signing me up for the 5 a.m. hockey league because after that morning I scored 8 goals at Millers Pond in the pickup game I knew I was a natural and woulda made everybody forget Mike Bossy or Gretzky (yeah, it was a while ago!:)). But I swear I'm OK now, even though I didn't get to play anywhere near enough to reach my potential ... and, and ...
 
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Ha, which is harder?

Marop said:
This is my field of expertise and I guarantee you that this cannot be done.
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Ha! are you trying to tell me it is harder to hit a line you can't see a few inches wide coming at you at 200 miles an hour than it is to hit a cue ball that is sitting still? How silly is that? ANYBODY can be a champion race car driver!

An average person can be a pretty good race car driver though.

Hu
 
Since you mention Gretzky

Travis Bickle said:
I'm starting to enjoy this thread. John's a natural a smack talk, too. And some of these other guys are naturals at woulda-coulda-blowhardism.

As for me, after years of therapy, I finally decided to forgive my parents for not signing me up for the 5 a.m. hockey league because after that morning I scored 8 goals at Millers Pond in the pickup game I knew I was a natural and woulda made everybody forget Mike Bossy or Gretzky (yeah, it was a while ago!:)). But I swear I'm OK now, even though I didn't get to play anywhere near enough to reach my potential ... and, and ...
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Since you mention Gretzky, what did he attribute his skills to?

I already know the answer to the question. It annoyed him when people talked about him being naturally gifted because he felt it made light of all of the hours of intense effort he put into being who he was.

Hu
 
Jason Robichaud said:
I think everyone starts off feeling they can play like the pro's! Once they start putting the time on the table, some soon see they can't, others it take a few months, some years, and a few were right!

I know after playing a very short time I did compete in a pro event and even beat a couple. If I played every day, who knows... until then though, I'm one of the crack heads saying I could win. I think as a pro, you should encourage them. Help them believe they are the next Mr. 400 or maybe 500. Let them burst their own bubble.
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Exactly. We aren't talking about people who give up. We are talking theory and my point is that when someone does go through the exact same experiences coupled with the same desire then they can get to the same level.

I am not talking about someone who thinks they are as good as pros but won't put in the time to prove it.

What John won't admit is that what he knows how to do didn't just happen. He had to start out with nothing more than an instinct and learn from there. Some people don't even have that instinct but they can still learn to do what he does - IF - they are wiling to put in the time, and have the drive AND have quality instruction.

If a champion is born then they require no instruction they can run 400 balls the minute they step to the table. They require no experience, they don't need to learn. They just do it automatically.

Find me someone like that and I will gladly bow down and worship them. Otherwise I will stick to all the real life stories where pros talk about what it took them to get to the level they play at.
 
Bandanna Joe said:
I agree with John's 'your born with it comments.'


IMO, pro's have natural mechanics. They line up without much effort from day 1 or day 2; & therefore, are able to focus on other aspects of improving their game. Their mental side allows them to give an extra 1 or 2 % when needed that others can't manage. This is the difference between being great and being amazing.

IMO, Others can learn to play well mechanically although it will take longer. In most cases, they will not become world class.

I remember watching several young players learn the game many many years ago. One that comes to mind as natural is Andy Quinn. He may not be a world class player but I watched him escalate from a C+ player to an A player in an extremely short time frame compared to everyone else in town at the time. John said that his game escalated more quicly than others within two years & I saw the same thing happen with Andy.
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Right and we discussed this. The part I am having trouble with is the attitude that people can "never" be world class if they aren't "born with it".

History shows us that there are many many examples of people who weren't "born with it" who did manage to excel by overcoming lots of obstacles through hard work and dedication.

All of know people who seem more gifted than others. Am I more gifted than others because I can fairly quickly solve production problems? No, I have spent a lot of time educating myself on various aspects of production and materials and sources so when a problem comes up I am able to think of the solution based on the knowledge in my head that others don't have.

However as I train my people and share knowledge with them then they become excellent problem solvers in their own right. Thus they become better and may someday be even better than me. I could give you specific examples of this but it's not needed.

Maybe I was "born" with an inquisitive nature that drives me to be the way I am. However the way I approach problems can be learned by others who don't think the way I do.

I agree that there are people who can play pool easier than others. That's a given. We also know that some people have to work harder to get to the same level but they get there.

I have yet to see an example of one person who works hard on their game, started young, had world class mentors, gained lots of experience, who isn't a world class player. There are plenty of also rans who show talent and promise but flame out.

So I am with Hu in that most pros attribute hard work and dedication to their success rather than some superhuman ability that makes them special. What makes them special is that they are willing and able to focus solely on what they want and do what it takes to get it.

Natural ability is only a starting point. Training makes Champions.
 
john schmidt said:
also if someone around the booth starts talking stupid like you and saying i could be as good as you all i have to do is play as much.
i wont have to tell them anything the people standing around will tell them they are smoking crack. get a life please
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Ok John I'll play it your way. Someone is at your booth who is about the same age as when you started. They see your awesomeness and ask you how they can become as good as you. What do you tell them?

A little while later someone else is standing there also completely in awe of your awesome skills and they are about 28 and have a decent game and they ask you how to get to be as good as you?

What do you tell them?
 
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being wrong

Mr.JB Cases or Barton:

Regardless of who is right or wrong in an argument, I think insulting and namecalling is definitely in bad taste....respect for one another is not that difficult to practice.....I am referring to your post #84.............

I agree with Mr. Schmidt with certain things, and I will say that you might have a point about someone reaching pro level on sheer determination, but still he needs to have a certain ability which is a bit extraordinary, but you demean yourself by stooping to namecalling and I am surprised the mods let you get away with it........
 
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Well, sorry but check John's post right before that. I don't like being talked down to and told that I am not "special enough" to excel at pool. John is the one who made this personal with his comments. He might be the greatest pool player in the world but he has no right to come in here and demean us all in a general way and certainly no right to get personal about it. Especially when he asks us to back him when he goes to tournaments.

If you don't feel that John did just that then I suggest that you go back and read the very first post that John made and all the subsequent ones.

This isn't about whether he is right or whether I am right. No one will EVER know who is right in this situation.

Autistic people can do amazing things that seem insurmountable for normal people. However it has been proven that incredibly fast math that some autistics can perform automatically can be duplicated through training. Indian and Chinese children learn to calculate incredibly fast using an abacus and get so good that they can do it mentally.

People have learned to have photographic memory. The theory is that whatever way that a brain is wired that makes someone have a special ability that it's theoretically possible for another person to "rewire" theirs to have the same ability.

Who among is God to be able to determine who can and cannot achieve something?

There have been times in history when prominent people have said that human beings have reached the limit of their physical and mental capacity, that no higher athletic achievements are possible and that everything that has been invented will be invented. All of those people have been wrong so what makes John Schmidt smarter than them that he can say who can and cannot excel at pool?

If he wants to make it personal and get in the grease then we can do that. I don't. But I am not going to be told that I am nit, a hater, an idiot, and ignorant simply because I haven't run 400 balls in 14.1. He acts as though all of us are clueless bangers who shouldn't dare to question his statements on subjects like these. And he makes statements to this effect. As to calling him a name, sure I could do that in a much more eloquent way and my point would be crystal clear, however sometimes the short form is much more efficient.
 
JB Cases said:
Natural ability is only a starting point. Training makes Champions.
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Natural ability is what makes it possible for training to make you a champion.

The average person can train all they want and they still won't be Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or Efren Reyes.
 
PoolBum said:
Natural ability is what makes it possible for training to make you a champion.

The average person can train all they want and they still won't be Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or Efren Reyes.
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That's the theory isn't it? And I have never said that any so-called average person could become a superstar through training. I have said that they could become world class.

And Efren Reyes without opportunity, mentoring, and environment would just be average.

There is a show that takes ordinary people and trains them for month and then puts them in front of a panel of experts to see if that person can convince the panel that they are highly proficient in that profession. A lot of people manage to pull it off and convince the "experts" that they have been doing the job for years.

The question is nature vs. nurture.

Nature creates a being that is capable of incredible things. Nurture shapes that being into a finely tuned machine capable of doing those things on demand.
 
I was told by a pool player who seems to have a natural ability since he was a child that the only way to get good in pool is to hit balls over and over and over again.

He claims to have hit tens of thousands of pool balls in pockets each and every single day of his life growing up, since the age of nine.

Maybe that does form a "trained ability," and maybe he did have a "natural ability," but he didn't get good until he hit thousands of pool balls in the hole on a daily basis over a very long period of time.

That is why he gave the world the 8-ball when he was a mere 19 years old. ;)
 
JAM said:
I was told by a pool player who seems to have a natural ability since he was a child that the only way to get good in pool is to hit balls over and over and over again.

He claims to have hit tens of thousands of pool balls in pockets each and every single day of his life growing up, since the age of nine.

Maybe that does form a "trained ability," and maybe he did have a "natural ability," but he didn't get good until he hit thousands of pool balls in the hole on a daily basis over a very long period of time.

That is why he gave the world the 8-ball when he was a mere 19 years old. ;)
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That illustrates exactly what I am saying. Your friend was encouraged and battled better players from a young age until he became the better player. If he had been discouraged and not allowed to play then it's likely that he would not have become the Champion he is.

His desire, coupled with a social environment and world class competitive regimen is what formed his natural ability into being a champion.

If you would have taken another player who perhaps had a little less drive and determination but who still put in the time in the same nurturing environment then that player would likely also be world class but perhaps not as good as the first one.

Bruce Kimball is a world class diver. He never wanted to be. His father was a world class diver and later a prominent coach. His father put him into training and developed a world class athlete who competed in the Olympics. Still Bruce was overshadowed by the superstar that is Greg Louganis. Greg's grace came from ballet training. The point being that one can take a person who has no real desire and forge a world class player out of them. But the one who has the desire, the drive will often rise to the top and excel far above his or her fellow world class athletes.

I was a competitive diver as well.
 
john schmidt said:
i tinkered with snooker and in a few months ran 7 centuries including a 145. i did that on a 6 by 12 with a pool cue at 9mile billiards in pensacola.i dont think it helped or hurt my poolgame.to me snooker is fun and challenging .i quit after the 145 because i know im nnever going to get serious at snooker so i stuck with pool.the guy who owns the table had it in his house and played snooker for 25 years with a high run of 68.
in a few months i almost ran a perfect game. so again if your going to be good it happens quick.
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Addressing both Johns........I'm not inclined towards insults (with the exception of deranged conspiracy theorists, they're fair game lol) and this is certainly not intended in that way, so please don't take this personally.......but it seems the snooker line of argument probably doesn't really do either of your arguments much service......and here's why.......

Brilliant cue man though he no doubt is the reality is that in snooker, right now John S would have no chance whatsoever of consistently beating anyone in the top 1,000 in world rankings over 15 frames (highly unlikely he could beat anyone currently in the top 20 of the under 18's or the top 10 of the under 15's)

Furthermore, principally because of John S's age now and the nature of his cue sports background so far, realistically anyone of that age and background profile has very little prospect of ever being good enough to reach the top 100 in world snooker rankings, no matter how much JB inspired rigorous training, coaching, practice and dedication he might put into it from here on in for the rest of his cue sports playing life.
 
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