Need help in settling an argument.

[fan-tum]

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

 

[James]

Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

Last night I scratched while playing a friend and he was at the bar for a second. So I placed the cueball on the flat portion of the rail. When he came back and said "ball in hand?", I said "No, that's where it ended up you have to shoot from there".

Then he shot from on top of the rail and made his ball and ran out. Then I ran out (of the room) and cried. The end.

P.S. I'm no help.

 

[Stones]

I don't care what rules we play by, just as long as everyone is playing by the same rules. No creative rule making in the middle of the match. LOL

I heard a long time ago that if the cue ball came to rest on top of the rail without touching the wood, it was considered in play but have never seen it actually played that way and I've been playing almost 50 years.

Probably just an urban legend.

Stones

 

[ShootingArts]

He is right

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

He pays the bills on the place, he is right even when he is wrong!

Hu

 

[TXsouthpaw]

I don't care what rules we play by, just as long as everyone is playing by the same rules. No creative rule making in the middle of the match. LOL

I heard a long time ago that if the cue ball came to rest on top of the rail without touching the wood, it was considered in play but have never seen it actually played that way and I've been playing almost 50 years.

Probably just an urban legend.

Stones

Agree with you on both points, Dont care the rules as long and everyone knows them and sticks to them.

And ive also heard that if the ball is still on the cloth part then the shot is legal. Ive seen a ball stop on the metal part on the back of the corner pocket and stay there. It was not on the cloth so wouldnt be legal n e ways but i thought it was awsome.

 

[TXsouthpaw]

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

and the Fast eddies 9 ball tour uses the texas express rules if im not mistaken so yes theyre still used.

 

[Cuebacca]

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

If you do a google search for "texas express 9-ball", without the quotes, you should get a lot of hits. They used to have an official website, but I'm not sure if it still exists. One of the original Texas Express guys posts here sometimes. I think his screen name is "Rockin Robin", or something similar.

I think these days, "Texas Express" is mainly used like "Kleenex". If you asked someone to pass you a kleenex and they said, "sorry, I've only got Johnson and Johnson brand tissues", you probably say, same deal.

In other words, I consider the WPA or BCA World Standardized Rules to be a type (or types) of Texas Express rules, as apposed to push-out AKA 2-foul rules where pocketed balls spot on scratches, you can roll out whenever you want, etc. JMO.

As for the ball stopping on top of the rail, I assume that's an urban legend, never part of a "real" rule set. Probably a bar rule that some drunk guy made up when he landed a ball up there. LOL. JMO.

 

[av84fun]

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

AFAIK there was never any particular entity known as Texas Express. I think it was just a set of rules that came into being over time which were supposedly originated in Texas...sort of like Texas Hold 'Em.

Here is some further information.

BCA Rules

3.28 BALLS JUMPED OFF TABLE
Balls coming to rest other than on the bed of the table after a stroke (on the cushion top, rail surface, floor, etc.) are considered jumped balls. Balls may bounce on the cushion tops and rails of the table in play without being jumped balls if they return to the bed of the table under their own power and without touching anything not a part of the table. The table shall consist of the permanent part of the table proper. (Balls that strike or touch anything not a part of the table, such as the light fixture, chalk on the rails and cushion tops, etc., shall be considered jumped balls even though they might return to the bed of the table after contacting items which are not parts of the table proper). In all pocket billiard games, when a stroke results in the cue ball or any object ball being a jumped ball off the table, the stroke is a foul. All jumped object balls are spotted (except in 8 and 9-Ball) when all balls have stopped moving. See specific game rules for putting the cue ball in play after a jumped cue ball foul.



The rise of "Texas express" rules

For much of its history nine-ball rules allowed participants to "push out" multiple times during a game (see "The push-out", below, for the modern push-out rules), meaning any player could call a "push-out", and then hit the cue ball to any area on the table without being penalized by normal foul rules, such as failure to contact the lowest-numbered ball on the table. However, once a push-out was called and executed, the incoming player had the right to shoot or give the inning back to the opponent. If the player shooting the resulting shot fouled, the other player would have ball-in-hand; hence this manner of play was called the "two-foul" version. "One-foul" became popular in the 1970s, as play turned more aggressive for the early televised matches. This newer version of nine-ball awarded ball-in-hand on any cue ball foul. A now-standard rule variant, which started to sweep the sport of nine-ball in the mid-1980s, restricted the push-out option to once per game and only to the inning immediately following the break. This change profoundly affected the way the game was played. By about 1990 this new push-out rule had become ubiquitous and it and any additional rules appended to it were collectively referred to as "Texas express" rules, so called because of the supposed US state of origin and the speeding up of the game. Today, Texas express push-out rules dominate the way nine-ball is played and is the variant incorporated into the official rules maintained by the WPA and its affiliates like the BCA.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-ball

 

[BPG24]

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

I have always played Texas Express except in ring games. It seems to be the most common rules

 

[Cuebacca]

This thread may help...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=635781

 

[ironman]

If you do a google search for "texas express 9-ball", without the quotes, you should get a lot of hits. They used to have an official website, but I'm not sure if it still exists. One of the original Texas Express guys posts here sometimes. I think his screen name is "Rockin Robin", or something similar.

I think these days, "Texas Express" is mainly used like "Kleenex". If you asked someone to pass you a kleenex and they said, "sorry, I've only got Johnson and Johnson brand tissues", you probably say, same deal.

In other words, I consider the WPA or BCA World Standardized Rules to be a type (or types) of Texas Express rules, as apposed to push-out AKA 2-foul rules where pocketed balls spot on scratches, you can roll out whenever you want, etc. JMO.

As for the ball stopping on top of the rail, I assume that's an urban legend, never part of a "real" rule set. Probably a bar rule that some drunk guy made up when he landed a ball up there. LOL. JMO.

As matter of fact, as I understand it Rockin Robin and Randy G were Texas Express.

I've seen the ball on top of the rail twice in my life and it was left there both times. The 2nd time was just last week.

 

[av84fun]

This thread may help...

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=635781

As that link points out, there is no longer any current "official" TE rules. Even back in the day, I would be surprised to learn that a ball resting on top of a cushion was not considered a jumped ball.

Randy?

In any event, the BCA/WPA rules say that would be a jumped ball but, of course, local customs and tournament rules can provide for whatever they want.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Cuebacca]

As matter of fact, as I understand it Rockin Robin and Randy G were Texas Express.

Thanks Ironman. According to the AZ archives, it was at least a 3-man group including Robin Adair (Rockin' Robin), Randy Gottlicher (randyg), and the late John McChesney. I'd be curious to learn a little more about the group, Texas Express Promotions. I might have to dig a little more sometime.

I've seen the ball on top of the rail twice in my life and it was left there both times. The 2nd time was just last week.

Wow! That's pretty surprising. Although it might be kind of a fun way to play in a casual game. Was it a competitive situation?

 

[TX Poolnut]

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

BCA, Texas Express, or whatever else as long as you're both in agreement before the match. I've never seen a ball stop on a rail. I always assumed if it didn't come to rest on the surface (read: slate) of the table, it was a foul.

I've seen it jump up and ride the rail and come back to rest on the table. There's a video of Charlie Bryant vs. Shannon Daulton (I think). Hillbilly rolled it about a foot down the rail before it rolled back on the table. I think it was at DCC.

 

[alstl]

If I'm not mistaken Bob Jewett was 1/3 of the original group which came up with Texas Express rules. He should be able to tell you everything you need to know about the rules.

 

[Cuebacca]

if anyone else was interested...

OK, so here's some info on Texas Express Promotions, found through www.archive.org:

The Texas Express Promotions Group was formed in the mid-1980s to promote competitive pocket billiards tournaments in the Southwestern United States. With the support of over 600 commercial sponsors, Texas Express has organized and presented more than 3,000 individual 9-Ball, 8-Ball, and One-Pocket Tours and Tournaments in more than 350 poolrooms, casinos, and resort hotels throughout the United States and Canada. Many major events have been televised. Texas Express was the official Qualifier Tour for the Camel Pro Billiards Series, and many of our players moved on to participate in the pro ranks.

Beginning in the mid-80s, Texas Express began promoting the Southwest 9-Ball Tournament Circuit. In the early 90s, Texas Express acquired Title Sponsor McDermott Cue and the National 9-Ball Tour was launched. We host open and ladies' divisions of play, and created the first Wheelchair Billiards Tour. Please see our Tours and Tournament Schedule for upcoming events.​

 

[Bob Jewett]

My room owner and I have ongoing "arguments" about 2 things mainly: He says rooms, including his, should follow texas Express rules--I say BCA World Standardized Rules.(when I try to Google tex exp, nothing comes up. Are they still solvent?)
Also he says the a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play"--I say no.

As has been pointed out, Texas Express Promotions, and the corresponding site that had the rules, have gone out of business. TEP used to run tournaments that were typically $3500 added. We had one in Redwood City, but the owner was not satisfied with the result, so we didn't have another.

Without an active website to get the rules, it's hard to find a copy of them. I suppose you could stump the owner by asking to see a printed version. As others have mentioned, what he probably means by "Texas Express" is ball in hand for any foul, all balls stay down, and three in a row lose. He may know nothing farther than that. TE was the first set of rules to incorporate those changes into nine ball, and most of them were adopted by the US men's pro tour (MPBA) in 1987.

The TE rules were in some ways better than the BCA rules up to 2007, but they also had several problems. I think they are not better than the current WPA rules, which were adopted on January 1st.

I propose that you go to the WPA website, print off the rules (and maybe the regulations) and take them into your room owner and explain to him that they are the updated TE rules, which in a very real sense is true.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If I'm not mistaken Bob Jewett was 1/3 of the original group which came up with Texas Express rules. He should be able to tell you everything you need to know about the rules.

Nope. I actually wrote my own set of rules for nine ball in 1979-1980 because the nine ball rules coming out of the BCA at that time were really, really bad. My rules were used in some local tournaments and eventually became the basis of the pro rules (PBA/MPBA/PBT/PBTA) in 1987. The BCA printed them as the rules for professional nine ball a few years later, and a few years after that the "amateur" rules disappeared.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Also he says that a ball which somehow comes to rest on the cloth portion of the top of a rail is "in play" -- I say no.

I'm afraid you're dealing with an idiot. Do the best you can, but do not turn your back on him if he seems angry. He may also be a sociopath.

 

[ShootingArts]

used to be pretty common

Getting a ball up there and stopped used to be pretty common on some old tables I played on. They had wide smooth rails and they might have leaned in just a hair. The edge of the rubber cushions were a little above the wooden subrails so there was a natural trough for the balls to stop in. There was cloth under the center of the ball and sometimes it was argued if it was on the playing surface or not.

I was guilty of placing a ball up there pretty often when somebody wasn't looking just for grins in friendly games. When someone shot their numbered balls off the table and discovered the eight ball on the rail was when it was really hilarious. That sometimes happened after they had argued a cue ball on the rail was still in play. Anyone want to try pocketing an eight ball off of the top of the rail without scratching?

Hu