New Lathe pictures

pdcue said:
Not to beat a dead horse - but plastic collets are not as accurate as metal.

BTW - what most on here call collets -are actually split bushings.
I use them myself any time the cue is past the 'roughing' stage.

Having a short spindle and close-together chucks is one way to work
on shorter pieces, but as Dick corectly pointed out - sacrifices some
precision.
There are other ways to handle machining short components. At least
two that are more precise than close-together chucks leap to mind.

Dale< developer of the new machining term 'close-together chucks':) >
Click to expand...

After being a machinist for 15 years, working everything from farm to nuclear power plant to military, I have a clue what collets are. Thanks for the education :boring2:

Have you ever used a precision cut set with tapered ID to match your components & OD to machine fit into a smooth bore spindle or bearing rest? They are accurate & repeatable to unimagineable levels. But don't take my word for it. Everyone knows I don't know anything about cuemaking, anyway:shrug:
 
i think the collets Eric is referring to are solid Delrin with no split and yes they are incredibly accurate.
Click to expand...
Accurate as hell.
Now if someone with a cnc turning machine can just mass produce them with a tapered hole ( around .3 degrees )...
 
Last edited:
qbilder said:
After being a machinist for 15 years, working everything from farm to nuclear power plant to military, I have a clue what collets are. Thanks for the education :boring2:

Have you ever used a precision cut set with tapered ID to match your components & OD to machine fit into a smooth bore spindle or bearing rest? They are accurate & repeatable to unimagineable levels. But don't take my word for it. Everyone knows I don't know anything about cuemaking, anyway:shrug:
Click to expand...

The split bushings comment wasn't about you.

Find me a professional machinist who thinks Delrin will hold the tolerances
metal will, youv'e got a year:).

If you are all done congratulating yourself on what a genius you are,
do a bit of research on acetal and machining.

Unimaginable as it may be - metal collets are still more precise and robust.
If they weren't, dont't you imangine precision machining facilities would use them instead?

This isn't rocket science.

Dale<not a rocket>
 
I would have to agreee with Dale here. I have never seen a 5C collet system made from delrin or any other type of synthetic material. May be for the exact reason Dale is stating. Just for example.
They work fine for general work , and maybe even if new can hold ok tolerences. But after repeated use, they lose quite a bit in accuracy.
Thanx and just my 2 cents......
 
I think qbuilder was refering to none split collets.
Delrin would not hold up to the draw loads that a 5c takes, especially on a collet closer.
We used to make none split colltes to hold special components.
They have a very close holding range, but were very accurate. They rely on the plastic properties of delrin to close and hold the work piece.
I still use plastic collets and sleeves that are not split.When they component is within .0012 inches of the collet size ,they work as well as any steel collet, but do not mark softer or surface finish sensitve components.
But the delrin collets are alot of work to make correct.
Neil
 
some pictures i thought everyone would enjoy
 

Attachments

  • finish lathe 006.JPG
    finish lathe 006.JPG
    64.4 KB · Views: 535
Lee,
Looks very beefy. What will the 8020 and dovetail be riding on? Will it have a fixed table? I niticed that lathes like these seem to be top heavy at the chuck. Any ideas on what the final product will be in general?
Also , is the motor variable speed with forward and reverse? How bout it?
Thanx ,
Jim Lee
 
J&D CUSTOMS said:
....I have never seen a 5C collet system made from delrin or any other type of synthetic material. May be for the exact reason Dale is stating. Just for example.
Click to expand...

Hmmmmm .... they are quite common ... here's one, a Royal product :

http://www.royalprod.com/content/files/products/Page_088.pdf

Note that this is nylon rather than delrin, but off the top of my head I'll say that they (nylon) are softer (than delrin) (will exhibit more strain/deflection for a given stress/load) .... I'm too lazy to go look up the relative modulus of elasticity for these materials.

If anyone really wants to know how accurate a plastic collet is compared to a steel collet, I'd guess that the engineers at Royal would have some opinions. In my non-machinist / non-cuemaker opinion it would be foolish to try to machine a sliding fit on a piece of titanium being held by a nylon collet. It might be totally acceptable to use a plastic collet to hold a piece of wood while attempting to turn it to within a thou' or two.

Dave
 
pdcue said:
Not to beat a dead horse - but plastic collets are not as accurate as metal.
Click to expand...

I just have to comment on this, even if we are migrating faaaar away from Lees intensions.

First of all, plastic is not plastic!

Saying that a "plastic" collet is not as accurate is like saying a car is not as fast as bike. Which car, which bike?

I have been looking at "plastic" now for close to a year and I have 8 different BOOKS/Catalogs of "plastics"! There are so many different "plastic" versions in the world of industrial "plastic", that I simply do not think that you're statement should be so balled.

I'm sitting with a chart of 58 different families of plastics, where each family has several "kids".

Delrin, for instance has a lot of different "delrins" where one has a E-module of 2100 but another "brother" has a E modul of 10500. Delrin is not Delrin !

Nylon has a large mix of version where the E module is spread over a large range of values.

When the industry is using high performance "plastic" for everything from cogwheels - against metal and other applications where tear and wear is crucial, I think you could for sure work on a couple of pool cues in a headstock without feeling that you are compromising to much. That is if you have made them using something (machine) which has tolerances which is good enough.

I have used custom made collets in "Delrin", tapered to fit the back of the headstock (where many use a extra chuck) to support shafts during tip changes. I would really like to see that you could measure a different T.I.R on the shaft coming through the chuck using a metal collet in stead!

No offense, but I do think that "plastic" would work for this purpose and I know others use even simpler setup to support the "goods" through the headstock.

In danger of hijacking Lees thread I leave it at that, but feel free to PM me if you would like some names on "plastics" you could double check.

Hope it helped.
Kent
 
Newton said:
I just have to comment on this, even if we are migrating faaaar away from Lees intensions.

First of all, plastic is not plastic!

Saying that a "plastic" collet is not as accurate is like saying a car is not as fast as bike. Which car, which bike?

I have been looking at "plastic" now for close to a year and I have 8 different BOOKS/Catalogs of "plastics"! There are so many different "plastic" versions in the world of industrial "plastic", that I simply do not think that you're statement should be so balled.

I'm sitting with a chart of 58 different families of plastics, where each family has several "kids".

Delrin, for instance has a lot of different "delrins" where one has a E-module of 2100 but another "brother" has a E modul of 10500. Delrin is not Delrin !

Nylon has a large mix of version where the E module is spread over a large range of values.

When the industry is using high performance "plastic" for everything from cogwheels - against metal and other applications where tear and wear is crucial, I think you could for sure work on a couple of pool cues in a headstock without feeling that you are compromising to much. That is if you have made them using something (machine) which has tolerances which is good enough.

I have used custom made collets in "Delrin", tapered to fit the back of the headstock (where many use a extra chuck) to support shafts during tip changes. I would really like to see that you could measure a different T.I.R on the shaft coming through the chuck using a metal collet in stead!

No offense, but I do think that "plastic" would work for this purpose and I know others use even simpler setup to support the "goods" through the headstock.

In danger of hijacking Lees thread I leave it at that, but feel free to PM me if you would like some names on "plastics" you could double check.

Hope it helped.
Kent
Click to expand...

The 'plastic' being discussed is acetal - commonly called Delrin after the
most well known brand - and it is extremely consistient.
It is MIL-SPEC'd and otherwise specified.

I don't think it's news to any cuemaker that there exists a
vast array of products and materials called Plastics.

Even within a specific name, Delrin is a good example, there are often
several versions that vary greatly.

FWIW - I think I stated that I have been using Delrin 'coletts' for
decades - and when used in an apropriate manner, they are accurate enough for 90% of cue work.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
The 'plastic' being discussed is acetal - commonly called Delrin after the
most well known brand - and it is extremely consistient.
It is MIL-SPEC'd and otherwise specified.

I don't think it's news to any cuemaker that there exists a
vast array of products and materials called Plastics.

Even within a specific name, Delrin is a good example, there are often
several versions that vary greatly.

FWIW - I think I stated that I have been using Delrin 'coletts' for
decades - and when used in an apropriate manner, they are accurate enough for 90% of cue work.

Dale
Click to expand...
Dale;

I'm not going to argue big time about this in this thread since Lee has actually started on a total different subject. The point with my post was that there is a lot of different POM/Acetal versions and if we speak about Delrin,Acetron,Celcon or what ever, they are all in the POM family and there is a lot of combinations. So when they are used in bearings,bushings,fittings,gears++ by the industry, I'm pretty sure that I would find a version of POM which would fit my/OUR?re needs without you or me having a bad sleep at night because we feel the product - a pool cue - would be madly compromised.

Any way, happy cue making and last post on this subject in this thread:)

Kent
 
Newton said:
Dale;

I'm not going to argue big time about this in this thread since Lee has actually started on a total different subject. The point with my post was that there is a lot of different POM/Acetal versions and if we speak about Delrin,Acetron,Celcon or what ever, they are all in the POM family and there is a lot of combinations. So when they are used in bearings,bushings,fittings,gears++ by the industry, I'm pretty sure that I would find a version of POM which would fit my/OUR?re needs without you or me having a bad sleep at night because we feel the product - a pool cue - would be madly compromised.

Any way, happy cue making and last post on this subject in this thread:)

Kent
Click to expand...

Still...

Not used for precision workholding nor toolholding.
There is a reason why, which is not rocket science.

Dale
 
pdcue said:
Still...

Not used for precision workholding nor toolholding.
There is a reason why, which is not rocket science.

Dale
Click to expand...

Dale,

You seem to be very "rocket science" orientated but here is some facts about "plastics" and tolerancing :
Cut'n paste from a "plastics" manufacturing company delivering high quality parts

"A common assumption in designing plastic components is that they can not be toleranced as close as metal parts. The real difference between metal and plastics is plastics is more impacted by material choice and part configuration. Under the right conditions it's possible run components +/- 0.0002". In opposing situations holding +/- 0.005" is a challenge."

Just for fun, here is a manufacturer which makes bushings with tolerances of a human hair (0.001") ;
http://www.shortshifter.com/delrin_carrier_bushings.htm

Now,what is you're TIR on you're lathes headstock and chuck combo ?

I don't have the picture of my closed bushings/collets which I use in the back of my headstock to hold shafts through the headstock, but this is what I thought we where discussing. If you are speaking about making Delrin holders to hold tools in you're lathe and other stuff, I do agree, this is not the prime use. However holding a pool cue centered in a the headstock by using closed - well made - collets is for sure something a well made collet could do, if you have the tools to make it.
It's not rocket science, I agree.

Kent
 
Newton said:
Dale,

You seem to be very "rocket science" orientated but here is some facts about "plastics" and tolerancing :
Cut'n paste from a "plastics" manufacturing company delivering high quality parts

"A common assumption in designing plastic components is that they can not be toleranced as close as metal parts. The real difference between metal and plastics is plastics is more impacted by material choice and part configuration. Under the right conditions it's possible run components +/- 0.0002". In opposing situations holding +/- 0.005" is a challenge."

Just for fun, here is a manufacturer which makes bushings with tolerances of a human hair (0.001") ;
http://www.shortshifter.com/delrin_carrier_bushings.htm

Now,what is you're TIR on you're lathes headstock and chuck combo ?

I don't have the picture of my closed bushings/collets which I use in the back of my headstock to hold shafts through the headstock, but this is what I thought we where discussing. If you are speaking about making Delrin holders to hold tools in you're lathe and other stuff, I do agree, this is not the prime use. However holding a pool cue centered in a the headstock by using closed - well made - collets is for sure something a well made collet could do, if you have the tools to make it.
It's not rocket science, I agree.

Kent
Click to expand...
http://layanicues.com/images/making6.jpg
I think that's Delrin and it works.:smile:
 
I know it works ;) If it's not Delrin it might be any of the other 40-50-60 high performance plastics.

Anyway, for those who have TIR under 0,0002" and want to split hairs, go for a metal collet.

The lathe I have looked at have TIR in the <0.01mm (0.00039") range which is a 750kg precision machine (not the one we emailed about) and is for sure good enough for me :thumbup:

Kent
 
Newton said:
Dale,

You seem to be very "rocket science" orientated but here is some facts about "plastics" and tolerancing :
Cut'n paste from a "plastics" manufacturing company delivering high quality parts

"A common assumption in designing plastic components is that they can not be toleranced as close as metal parts. The real difference between metal and plastics is plastics is more impacted by material choice and part configuration. Under the right conditions it's possible run components +/- 0.0002". In opposing situations holding +/- 0.005" is a challenge."

Just for fun, here is a manufacturer which makes bushings with tolerances of a human hair (0.001") ;
http://www.shortshifter.com/delrin_carrier_bushings.htm

Now,what is you're TIR on you're lathes headstock and chuck combo ?

I don't have the picture of my closed bushings/collets which I use in the back of my headstock to hold shafts through the headstock, but this is what I thought we where discussing. If you are speaking about making Delrin holders to hold tools in you're lathe and other stuff, I do agree, this is not the prime use. However holding a pool cue centered in a the headstock by using closed - well made - collets is for sure something a well made collet could do, if you have the tools to make it.
It's not rocket science, I agree.

Kent
Click to expand...

OK Isaac, if you care to read the posts - the discussion was never about how precisely Delrin could be machined - but rather, how appropriate Delrin collets might be for precision workholding and/or toolholding.

Dale
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top