New pool game

[Shawn Armstrong]

Just that, to tie the balls up and prevent the next player from running out. This could go on forever. I've tried to come up with a safety strategy for the game and none seem to work.

If you look at most games related to pool, none have safety options, e.g. golf, tennis or bowling. Pool is the only individual game (or sport) that allows for safeties. I believe safety play restricts the offensive part of pool (obviously) and creativity in that part of the game.

Danny

Golf and Tennis have safeties. It's just a different style of game. The safeties in golf are called "hazards". Sand traps, water. These things make you play your ball to a certain spot, not just anywhere you want. Tennis has safeties - slice backhands, lobs, junk serves. They usually aren't rally winners, but they do set up winners. There's nothing like a well played safety in pool. If you take the defensive part of the game out, you're losing a valuable part of the game.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Jimmy, Probably no straight pool until spring. I'm really going to try and promote my new game.

Chris, Shawn and others, thanks for all input.
Regarding safety play and Rotation Continuous, the players will be on their honor to play aggressive. In a tournament situation a director should be able to determine whether or not deliberate safeties are taking place. Just like in three cushion, the player is on his honor to play the offensive shot.

There may be an occasion where balls are tied up later in the rack, and so the player may wish to not disturb them. I wouldn't call that a safety but conservative play, because if they run to that point where the balls are clustered, they'll have to break the balls out anyway. I see a difference between safety and conservative play, e.g. playing position for a three ball run instead of the whole rack.

Yes, tennis has lob shots and drop shots, but these are conservative plays and not necessarily safeties. They can also be played as winners.

In golf I would compare the traps and hazards to missing position and having to bank the ball or cue ball. You played a bad shot, why not shoot from a hazard instead of being able to play safe? What if Tiger Woods was able to put his opponent in a bad position from 200 yards out and in the sand? He has to come with the shot, and he does. I think this will create a new offensive game of pool where you'll see caroms, combination banks and a variety of unusual shots.

Yes, defensive pool has it's own skill, but why not limit it to one-pocket or straight pool? Is it fair, that when you miss position on a shot, you can sew your opponent so he can hardly hit the ball? Sometimes the safeties are extremely easy to play, and puts the shooter at a tremendous advantage.

Danny

 

[sjm]

Yes, defensive pool has it's own skill, but why not limit it to one-pocket or straight pool?

First of all, good luck promoting your game, not as a replacement for nine ball but as another flavor played from time to time. I'll give your game a try and show it to others.

Answering the above question, for me, the most interesting parts of nine ball are defense, two-way shots and kicking. Why strip the game of its three most fascinating elements? Similarly, if a friend of mine and I want to play basketball, we can play some one on one, a game requirements all the skills inherent to the game. Of course, we could strip the game of defense and just play "HORSE" but that would remove far too many of the elements of skill from the game.

 

[Maniac]

Regarding safety play and Rotation Continuous, the players will be on their honor to play aggressive. Danny

Therein is where the trouble is going to lie. I believe your game has a lot of promise. It sounds like an excellent alternative to nine/ten ball. But depending on players "honor" is going to run into some problems !
I hope you do well in promoting this new game though.

Maniac

 

[catscradle]

Just that, to tie the balls up and prevent the next player from running out. This could go on forever. I've tried to come up with a safety strategy for the game and none seem to work.

If you look at most games related to pool, none have safety options, e.g. golf, tennis or bowling. Pool is the only individual game (or sport) that allows for safeties. I believe safety play restricts the offensive part of pool (obviously) and creativity in that part of the game.

Danny

No safeties in golf and bowling because there is no way for your play to effect your opponents play. In tennis, it could be said that little dink shots and going to the net constitute safeties of a sort. In football punts are safeties; once you're ahead, going to a running game is in effect a safety. In soccer kicking the ball out of bounds is a safety.

BTW, I like the sound of the game you described. I think I'd have to play it for a while to see how I really like it, but sounds like an interesting idea. For us mere mortals the ball-in-hand after a miss, makes rotation realistic.

I went to your room once when I was in CA a few years ago. Very nice room. I played some guy in your tournament who had to get a bazillion games to my handful, he beat me anyway.

 

[jsp]

...After every missed shot or foul, incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on playing surface....

...Safeties, as in three-cushion billiards, are not allowed and the penalty is minus 15 points and opponent breaks a new rack...

I would suggest a couple of changes to the two rules above. I think safeties in general should be allowed. The first rule above should instead state...

- For every safety, missed shot, or foul, the incoming player has BIH, OR he has the option of passing BIH forward to the next player.

This prevents the player from executing "too good" of a safety. If he does, then he runs the risk of the safety being passed forward all the way back to him. In that case, he must play another shot. There should be another rule that states...

-If the player doesn't pocket the ball after it has been passed forward to him a third time, then he is penalized 15 points, and a rerack for the next player.

This rule would prevent him from playing a lock-up safety each and every time it's passed forward to him.

I think adding these rules would introduce new strategy and tactical dimensions into the ring game, while also minimizing some of the luck factor since players won't mindlessly bang into balls when they don't have a clear shot. By passing the shot forward instead of backwards, it minimizes collusion between two players, and it also increases fairness since each player could have the choice to pass up or play the shot.

 

[klockdoc]

After every missed shot or foul, incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on playing surface.

Safeties, as in three-cushion billiards, are not allowed and the penalty is minus 15 points and opponent breaks a new rack.

Danny K

Another thought. Back when I first started playing pool there was a 2 shot roll-out rule in the game. I pretty sure this was eliminated later in the years to "speed" the game up for TV.

You could still have a ball-in-hand rule, but, only after 2 fouls by the same person. This would possibly eliminate the chance that someone would try to tie balls up later in the rack, because if the shot was passed back to him, he would be the victim of the tied up balls.

This would also keep with your thought process of keeping the game offensive play, plus defensive at the same time. I am pushing out to a shot that I believe I can make, or I am favored to make this shot and the next shooter isn't...

The situation of tied up balls, whether intensional or not, is part of any game and a learning process for every player.

How do I break these balls out to be able to get a shot on them?

What angle/direction is needed to enable me to get a shot on these balls?

What time during the game do I attempt to break them out?

Eliminating that challenge takes an important component out of the game. IMO

Just another thought.

Oh, and in 3 cushion, there are safeties played. They are known as a two way shot, so you don't leave the balls in a natural situation for an easy billiard for the incoming player.

I like the idea. Hopefully some of the ideas posted by all will help your quest for a new and different game.

Good Luck...

 

[jsp]

I would suggest a couple of changes to the two rules above. I think safeties in general should be allowed. The first rule above should instead state...

- For every safety, missed shot, or foul, the incoming player has BIH, OR he has the option of passing BIH forward to the next player.

This prevents the player from executing "too good" of a safety. If he does, then he runs the risk of the safety being passed forward all the way back to him. In that case, he must play another shot. There should be another rule that states...

-If the player doesn't pocket the ball after it has been passed forward to him a third time, then he is penalized 15 points, and a rerack for the next player.

This rule would prevent him from playing a lock-up safety each and every time it's passed forward to him.

I think adding these rules would introduce new strategy and tactical dimensions into the ring game, while also minimizing some of the luck factor since players won't mindlessly bang into balls when they don't have a clear shot. By passing the shot forward instead of backwards, it minimizes collusion between two players, and it also increases fairness since each player could have the choice to pass up or play the shot.

The following is an example where these new rules would make the ring game much more interesting. The following ring game is down to three players.

(Note, there are 5 pages to the cuetable diagram.)

CueTable Help

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

jsp, that could work in a ring game, I agree. I'll bring it up to my buddies today when we play.

The problem with a three foul ball in hand rule (when playing one on one) is that it puts the person to make the first foul at an extreme disadvantage, because, knowing that he will be the first to foul out his opponent will only continue to tie balls up until the player fouling first fouls out. (Pardon my word structure.)

Sure, a player can play a shot that is really intended to be a safe, but you'll notice in this game (play a few racks) the intent is to run the table. Very few table layouts are presented in the game that would necessitate a safety. Sorry, you just have to come with the shot. Pool players, like golfers have to be on their honor to play the game fairly. We can do that, right?

Why not expect the same etiquette from pool players as golfers?

klockdoc, the two shot shoot out rule was eliminated because of the time factor. Also, personally I think it allows someone who has missed their position to roll out to a neutral spot and keep shooting, or play a safe from there.

I believe Rotation Continuous wil still produce the better player in the end, because of the complications of using an entire rack, and the ball in hand rule, eliminating the bad roll factor.

Efren Reyes is in town now (Los Angeles), and I'm going to see if he wants to play some for a dollar a point (maybe at Hard Times). So I lose a couple of hundred bucks. He can use the money and I would like to see if he likes the game. I'd love to see him play it! Of course, the main reason he's such a good nine ball player is his experience with rotation.

Any and all input appreciated!

Danny

 

[jsp]

jsp, that could work in a ring game, I agree. I'll bring it up to my buddies today when we play.

The problem with a three foul ball in hand rule (when playing one on one) is that it puts the person to make the first foul at an extreme disadvantage, because, knowing that he will be the first to foul out his opponent will only continue to tie balls up until the player fouling first fouls out. (Pardon my word structure.)

It's not exactly a "three foul" rule. My rule states that if it gets passed forward to you a third time, you must make the shot. If another player chooses to shoot another safety instead of passing it forward, the "foul" then goes on him and you're off the hook. So it should still work with only two players.

But anyway, it's a great game you thought up. I hope you get Efren to play it when he's in town, and I hope it catches on.

 

[klockdoc]

klockdoc, the two shot shoot out rule was eliminated because of the time factor. Also, personally I think it allows someone who has missed their position to roll out to a neutral spot and keep shooting, or play a safe from there.

Danny

Aahhh, the time factor. Yes.

I hate to keep bothering you because it seems that you have thought this out pretty thoroughly. But, one thing I would clarify is that the roll-out doesn't allow the shooter to push out to a neutral position and keep on shooting; it is the oncoming players option whether he wants to shoot the shot or pass it back to the original shooter.

But, if the time factor is an issue, then it is a moot point...

Let us know what Efren thinks if you show it to him.

Tell Efren, Kumusta' Ka (hello)

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

klockdoc, it does give the player who pushes out an option to keep shooting if the shot is passed back to him. That's all I meant.

klockdoc, who are you? I don't know who any of you guys are, with the exception of Jay Helfert.

I'm going to try and catch Efren at Hard Times tonight. I hope he's still in town.

Again, playing one on one the problem with safeties, (I've really looked into this) is that the player with the first miss (or foul) is at a huge disadvantage. Oncoming player can just make the table more difficult and force three fouls.

By the way, after you play a few racks of Rotation Continuous, you'll see what an easy game nine ball is. After you run past the five ball, most racks are usually open. You can see why the Phillipinos had such an easy time with nine ball when they came to this country. They were used to playing rotation.

The problem with the game of traditional rotation though, is that the more difficult balls to make are assigned smaller values (1,2,3, etc.) and easier balls to make are valued higher.

Thanks again for any input!

Danny K

 

[JohnnyP]

Danny:

Is there such a game as reverse rotation? Shoot the high value balls first.

15 +14 + 13 + 12 + 11 = 65

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

John, That would be an idea as well. I think if you count all balls equally though, the game has a similar feel to straight pool, but with more difficult shot making and position play. Also, it lends itself more to the "continuous" concept.

We'll be playing the game today at about 3PM.

See you at Danny K's, John.

Danny

 

[Blackjack]

Danny

This game is similar to a game I used to play called "Rainbow".

The balls are racked with the 8 in the middle and the 1 ball on top.

Player A breaks - all balls sunk on the break are spotted.

The object of the game is to pocket the balls in "color order".

1 - then 9
2 - then 10
3 - then 11 and so on.
You must go in color order - Yellow - blue - red - purple - orange - green - maroon - Black

If you pocket one ball in the set, like the 4 ball, and miss the 12 ball, the 4 ball is re-spotted, and the incoming player takes over from where the cue ball is sitting.

For each set, you are awarded the point value of the set -

1 & 9 - 10 points
2 & 10 - 12 points
3 & 11 - 14 points
4 & 12 - 16 points
5 & 13 - 18 points
6 & 14 - 20 points
7 & 15 - 22 points
8 ball - 8 points
The total # points for each game is 120...

You could also score 1 point per ball, or 2 points per set (1 & 9).


Missing the lowest # ball is ball in hand... safeties allowed, cue ball or object ball must hit a rail or its a foul.

I believe that if you switched the point scoring around and followed this format - respotting a pocketed ball would be a penalty for playing a safety - and the player gets no points. If no ball is pocketed, and they can still play safe like in any of the rotation games, and ball in hand if the lowest ball isn't hit.

I still practice with this game from time to time, I learned it from my grandfather when I was a kid.

 

[jsp]

...Again, playing one on one the problem with safeties, (I've really looked into this) is that the player with the first miss (or foul) is at a huge disadvantage. Oncoming player can just make the table more difficult and force three fouls...

I don't think you completely understand the rule I'm proposing, and I apologize for not being exactly precise with my wording.

Again, what I propose is NOT a traditional three-foul rule (first to three fouls get penalized). The penalty only happens if the player does not pocket the lowest ball after the shot has been passed forward to him three consecutive times, without a shot taken by the other players in between.

For example, if there are only two players left, and Player 1 misses a shot or plays a safety leaving an unfavorable layout, Player 2 has the option of passing the shot "forward" to Player 1 or executing a shot.

If Player 2 executes a shot, whether he attempts to pocket it or he plays an intentional safety (tying up other balls), that disrupts the "three consecutive pass forward" rule.

The penalty would only occur if Player 2 passes the shot to Player 1 (first pass forward), then Player 1 makes another safety and Player 2 again passes the shot to Player 1 (second pass forward), then Player 1 makes yet another safety and Player 2 yet again passes the shot to Player 1 (third pass forward), and finally Player 1 fails to pocket the ball on this attempt.

It seems kinda complicated, but it really isn't. The intent of this rule is to prevent Player 1 from continuing to play lock-up safe after lock-up safe whenever the table gets passed forward (by all the players) to him. This forces Player 1 to eventually attempt to pocket the ball, or at least free it up somehow. Therefore, Player 2 (or any other subsequent player) probably wouldn't want to try to tie up any future balls as the shot gets forwarded to him.

Obviously, the rule only makes sense if there is a pass forward option. And the amount of consecutive times it can be passed forward is arbitrary. It might even be better if the rule only allowed two consecutive pass forwards.

Just a thought.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

jsp, I'm really trying to work this out for a one on one game, and make it as simple as possible. I've found that the KISS principle tends to work, especially if you're trying to have something universally accepted.

Thanks for the input.

I'm off to play the ring game now. Later on I'll see if Efren is around, and how he likes the game.

Honestly, I've grown bored with almost all pool games except one-pocket in the past couple of years. This is the first time in a while I'm actually looking forward to playing.

I qualified to play in the World Straight Pool Open in New Brunswick in July of this year, went back and played, and didn't seem to care if I ran balls or not. So I played two matches and came home. I was never nervous at the table, only bored. I felt that if I couldn't put more effort in to the games I didn't deserve to play.

But then straight pool is a matter of playing on a 4 and 1/2 foot square and using only 4 pockets, and usually only two. And often times your out of position and you can shoot another ball. Most shots are bunts and short. I really think rotation games are more challenging and difficult, utilizing more offensive skill and creativity.

Danny

 

[Jimk]

OK here is the game.

Rotation Continuous

Fifteen balls are racked with the one ball in front and the rest of the balls any fashion the racker prefers.

Breaker racks his or her own balls.

Offensive break only. Safety breaks are not allowed.

Balls are shot in rotation.

After every missed shot or foul, incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on playing surface.

Every shot counts a point. A preset number of points is played to, like 75 or 100.

Player who makes the last ball on the table continues shooting.

Can be played call pocket as well. It may be more exciting to play anything counts that goes, though.

Safeties, as in three-cushion billiards, are not allowed and the penalty is minus 15 points and opponent breaks a new rack.

We've been playing Rotation Continuous in a ring game for several months now and no one leaves feeling that they didn't get the rolls or was unlucky. Players who play the best win.

This game affords all players the luxury of playing any and all offensive shots, and so the offensive aspect of player's games will improve and should prove to be more exciting to watch in a tournament and on TV.

Give it a try! I plan on hosting a tournament here at Danny K's in February, adding some decent money and making the entry fee cheap.

I'll post when that will happen.

Danny K

I played in one of the ring games at Danny K's playing the new game. For an hour I was getting stuck in the same position in every game, the first shot after the break. I got my proverbial nuts whacked and threw in the towel. It may be better in a heads up situation.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Jim, Good point! Generally shooting after the break can be a tough leave because many balls can be tied up, and of course more balls are on the table to make position more difficult. In a ring game, that can be a problem, unless you are able to run out from there. If you miss the shot early, you may not get back to the table, especially if you're playing with some strong players.
Playing one on one tends to even everything out some.
I'm sorry Efren left town to play in the US Open. I'll catch him next time around

Sorry you got your nuts whacked!

Take care, brother.

Danny

 

[RunoutalloverU]

I have known for awhile now that rotation is simply the best pool game in existence, the tougher a game is, the better players come out on top. Danny what is the schedule of the ring games. Ive played one tourney at your pool hall, wonderful place, love the atmosphere. I didn't like how much I had to give up, but I guess I should be flattered. One question, do you have any tables that have tighter pockets than others, I didn't really notice any. A tighter table would be really great for some rotation, especially when money is involved.