That's what I was thinking. He's in Birmingham and he's also here on AZ.
New Tip Job....What Say Ye?
- Thread starter Allen Brown
- Start date
That's what I was thinking. He's in Birmingham and he's also here on AZ.
I've never replaced a tip on a cue.....I leave it to the experts. Is it common practice to fill in the end of an OB shaft with epoxy during a tip install? Is it common practice to leave the tip sticking out wayyyy past the ferrule and make it look like a mushroom sitting on a stem? Would you leave a tip job looking like this?
No lie... was at my buddy's shop last weekend and this player brought in a Lucasi that "had a bad rattle". He told us he had taken it to another local cuesmith who "adjusted the weight" for him. Yeah he packed the butt full of BB's that had eventually shifted and rattled loose. (Yes BB's all over the floor when we took off the bumper.)
Haha
It is Larry Hale ;-)
Yes Sir - bring it on by Bumpers Billiards in Hoover and I can fix her up.
Call me.
Thanks!
It is Larry Hale ;-)
Yes Sir - bring it on by Bumpers Billiards in Hoover and I can fix her up.
Call me.
Thanks!
I agree in part in that we don't have enough information to know if the damage to the ferrule was pre-existing or caused by the tech, but Kamui Black tips don't instantly mushroom over the ferrule - the tip was certainly not installed correctly.
As to guarantees, if you took your car in to have new tires put on and the car tipped off the rack smashing in part of the body, would you not seek reparations from them?
I don't know if the ferrule was in that condition before or after either.
From your past experience and now this guys. I think it's time you started. Apparently there is a need! If you can make a pin, tips should be easy.
Larry
Hello Allen,
Let's address your concerns one at a time.
"Is it common practice to fill in the end of an OB shaft with epoxy during a tip install?"
If there is a void, then yes, you fill it to provide a flat surface for the tip
and since this isn't your shaft and you didn't witness the tip install, just how big was this hole?
"Is it common practice to leave the tip sticking out wayyyy past the ferrule and make it look like a mushroom sitting on a stem?
The tip has obviously been played, it's got chalk on it and on the ferrule. New tips tend to mushroom when first played.
I kinda thought that was common knowledge.
"Would you leave a tip job looking like this?"
I'm not sure the purpose of this question but it's somewhat moot.
The tip has been played, it didn't come off the lathe that way.
Again, your buddy really needs to learn to chalk properly. There's no reason to chalk the wood of the shaft.
Yet, if you look closely, the shaft has about as much chalk on it as the ferrule. Did the installer do that?
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"He found a hole in the ferrule and filled it in with epoxy?? Goodbye low deflection..."
'victorl', a bit of a reckless statement wasn't it? Are you an expert in L/D shaft construction?
Can we assume that the glue used to apply the tip will alter the shaft's deflection characteristics as well?
'Cracktherack', you're just one bad actor ain't ya?
"If he handed me my shaft looking like this, I would have hoisted him up a wall by the neck,
so his feet were off the ground and then I'd make my non-negotiable expectations perfectly clear.
I'd be getting a brand new shaft and my $25 back." Good luck with that.
About the only thing your threats and 'non-negotiable expectations' will bring you is some jail time.
Your self-rigtheous indignation sounded good though. I'll bet it was a real crowd-pleaser in the `80s.
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jeremy8000 - "but Kamui Black tips don't instantly mushroom over the ferrule - the tip was certainly not installed correctly."
You're entitled to your opinion which is based on a pic. Do you have personal knowledge as to how long that tip has been played?
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I know that the self-appointed experts amongst you think otherwise but you're wrong. The tip was installed correctly.
This thread is ripe with misguided speculation, threats, guesses and a general lack of knowledge.
AZB is a 'special' place.
Let's address your concerns one at a time.
"Is it common practice to fill in the end of an OB shaft with epoxy during a tip install?"
If there is a void, then yes, you fill it to provide a flat surface for the tip
and since this isn't your shaft and you didn't witness the tip install, just how big was this hole?
"Is it common practice to leave the tip sticking out wayyyy past the ferrule and make it look like a mushroom sitting on a stem?
The tip has obviously been played, it's got chalk on it and on the ferrule. New tips tend to mushroom when first played.
I kinda thought that was common knowledge.
"Would you leave a tip job looking like this?"
I'm not sure the purpose of this question but it's somewhat moot.
The tip has been played, it didn't come off the lathe that way.
Again, your buddy really needs to learn to chalk properly. There's no reason to chalk the wood of the shaft.
Yet, if you look closely, the shaft has about as much chalk on it as the ferrule. Did the installer do that?
---------------
"He found a hole in the ferrule and filled it in with epoxy?? Goodbye low deflection..."
'victorl', a bit of a reckless statement wasn't it? Are you an expert in L/D shaft construction?
Can we assume that the glue used to apply the tip will alter the shaft's deflection characteristics as well?
'Cracktherack', you're just one bad actor ain't ya?
"If he handed me my shaft looking like this, I would have hoisted him up a wall by the neck,
so his feet were off the ground and then I'd make my non-negotiable expectations perfectly clear.
I'd be getting a brand new shaft and my $25 back." Good luck with that.
About the only thing your threats and 'non-negotiable expectations' will bring you is some jail time.
Your self-rigtheous indignation sounded good though. I'll bet it was a real crowd-pleaser in the `80s.
------------
jeremy8000 - "but Kamui Black tips don't instantly mushroom over the ferrule - the tip was certainly not installed correctly."
You're entitled to your opinion which is based on a pic. Do you have personal knowledge as to how long that tip has been played?
--------------------
I know that the self-appointed experts amongst you think otherwise but you're wrong. The tip was installed correctly.
This thread is ripe with misguided speculation, threats, guesses and a general lack of knowledge.
AZB is a 'special' place.
First off, the tip isn't mushroomed. The second pic clearly shows that the tip never got taken down flush. The only one speculating anything is you. If the tip never got trimmed flush, the installer probably never removed that top plastic layer. Which means the very top of the tip is plastic and not leather. No matter how you want to spin the direction of this thread KJ, one thing remains. The tip was installed poorly. The person who did the installed and 'repair' is a hack. Instead of replying with an essay next time, actually look at the pics with your glasses on. It'll save you and us the trouble of not having to deal with your sour attitude.
The guy filled in the OB ferrule which was designed with a hole. Who works on shafts without knowing how they are constructed? It's like a car mechanic working on a Porsche 911 and saying "you had the enging in the wrong spot so I moved it to the front for you".
And that tip was not properly trimmed, it's fattened out all over not mushroomed, and those tips do not mushroom much if at all, even if you break with them. It's not a cheap 50 cent tip that feels like chewed paper, I've have several Kamui tips on my shafts and they needed to be touched up maybe a few times in a year and never looked like a barrel like it does in the picture.
After reading your replies seems you are drinking from the same well as Harriman when it comes to insulting people for no reason. Unless it was you that did the tip work.
There is no way chalking will cause scratch marks on the ferrule like that, although it's possible that they were there before the work was done.
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Just curious why he was able to see a hole in the end of the shaft, supposed to be a fiber pad on it. Did he remove that as well?
WOW! That's cool! I thought they always used buckshot or a piece of lead. Never know what may happen in a pool hall and when you may need to spray a bunch of BBs out of the end of your cue while fighting your way out of the joint.
Aloha.
My opinion is not based solely on basis of the photo of the tip on that cue, but an personal experience with the Kamui Black tips I've played with on mine for over a year now, which show virtually no mushrooming with little maintenance required despite regular (average 2-3 nights/week) play. So if we assume the owner hasn't had it that long (and I believe that's a reasonable supposition), and unless they heavily abused it with tip tools post-replacement, it follows logically that the error lies with the installation.
If you're going to decry others as being wrong, you should consider providing at least one shred of evidence supporting your claim in counter to the several points of evidence supporting theirs. All you have said, effectively, is "You think you're right because of all your evidence, but you're wrong and I'm right because I say I am."
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For what it's worth, my opinion is that the shaft had been retipped at some point before, and that repair guy butchered the shaft. Reason I say that is because the last pic shows the ferrule clearly enough to see severe linear scratches on the ferrule. Those do not come from a lathe, and you cannot fake the evidence of age. The scratches are filled with chalk and hand grime, which takes lots of table time. That clearly indicates one of two things. Either the shaft owner uses 80grit sandpaper to maintain his tip by hand, or else the shaft has been retipped previous to this most recent time.
Considering the severe damage to the exterior of the ferrule, it's safe to assume the guy wasn't any better on the interior, which would explain the exposed hole. The surface for gluing a tip is supposed to be solid & flat, free of a big void in the center. OB never designed it to be like that, which means it has been altered. The repair guy did the correct thing, IMO, by covering the hole. That tiny bit of epoxy is not going to affect deflection to any noticeable degree, but it will most certainly give a much stronger support for the tip. Also considering the extreme damage to the ferrule, I would assume the guy didn't want to touch the ferrule, which is why he shaved the tip as close as he could without having to contact the ferrule. The last pic also shows clearly enough, the bottom layer of the tip is very close to the size of the ferrule, and bulges out from there. That indicates that the tip was installed correctly and has since bulged/mushroomed out. IMO, the tip is too tall and the bulge is the result. If the tip were half as thick, the bulge would be half as pronounced. Would likely play better, too.
Anyway, just my observation. I'm not arguing with anybody or trying to sway anybody's opinion. Agree or disagree, no matter to me. To be honest, it looks most like somebody in the past attempted changing a tip by hand, did a horrible job, and now it's being put on the newbie repairman.
Considering the severe damage to the exterior of the ferrule, it's safe to assume the guy wasn't any better on the interior, which would explain the exposed hole. The surface for gluing a tip is supposed to be solid & flat, free of a big void in the center. OB never designed it to be like that, which means it has been altered. The repair guy did the correct thing, IMO, by covering the hole. That tiny bit of epoxy is not going to affect deflection to any noticeable degree, but it will most certainly give a much stronger support for the tip. Also considering the extreme damage to the ferrule, I would assume the guy didn't want to touch the ferrule, which is why he shaved the tip as close as he could without having to contact the ferrule. The last pic also shows clearly enough, the bottom layer of the tip is very close to the size of the ferrule, and bulges out from there. That indicates that the tip was installed correctly and has since bulged/mushroomed out. IMO, the tip is too tall and the bulge is the result. If the tip were half as thick, the bulge would be half as pronounced. Would likely play better, too.
Anyway, just my observation. I'm not arguing with anybody or trying to sway anybody's opinion. Agree or disagree, no matter to me. To be honest, it looks most like somebody in the past attempted changing a tip by hand, did a horrible job, and now it's being put on the newbie repairman.
I have to disagree on a couple of points here..
edit: Looking at that third picture it does look like it could be the slight mushrooming that occurs on freshly installed kamuis. Those aren't the best pictures.
The ferule does look a little short, looks to me like someone at some point turned down a little bit of the ferule cleaning off the old tip treating it like a normal shaft and ferule.
You can't do that on most LD shafts, you have to be careful to only take off the tip, hell, if there isn't a pad already it's easy enough to leave a mm of the old tip as a pad, that won't affect anything.
Jumping to this being a prior tip replacement butchering that this guy tried to fix as a conclusion is taking a big leap IMO.
Like I said, it looks and sounds to me from the limited information that we have, that this guy was in over his head working on an LD shaft and took a little bit of the ferule down when cleaning off the old tip and when he found the hollow that was then exposed tried to fix his **** up.
It doesn't require a new shaft. At most it will require a new ferule from OB and removal of the epoxy that was added. Depending on how much epoxy was added, it ABSOLUTELY can affect the LD characteristics.
I was an authorized repairman for predator and you have to follow a specific procedure and they will ship you out their specific ferule. My guess is that OB is the same way.
I never had the occasion to ask Royce about that in the course of our conversations as being an authorized repair man for OB never came up.
Jaden
edit: Looking at that third picture it does look like it could be the slight mushrooming that occurs on freshly installed kamuis. Those aren't the best pictures.
The ferule does look a little short, looks to me like someone at some point turned down a little bit of the ferule cleaning off the old tip treating it like a normal shaft and ferule.
You can't do that on most LD shafts, you have to be careful to only take off the tip, hell, if there isn't a pad already it's easy enough to leave a mm of the old tip as a pad, that won't affect anything.
Jumping to this being a prior tip replacement butchering that this guy tried to fix as a conclusion is taking a big leap IMO.
Like I said, it looks and sounds to me from the limited information that we have, that this guy was in over his head working on an LD shaft and took a little bit of the ferule down when cleaning off the old tip and when he found the hollow that was then exposed tried to fix his **** up.
It doesn't require a new shaft. At most it will require a new ferule from OB and removal of the epoxy that was added. Depending on how much epoxy was added, it ABSOLUTELY can affect the LD characteristics.
I was an authorized repairman for predator and you have to follow a specific procedure and they will ship you out their specific ferule. My guess is that OB is the same way.
I never had the occasion to ask Royce about that in the course of our conversations as being an authorized repair man for OB never came up.
Jaden
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yeah it does look....
It looks like it has a blue pad or blue portion to the bottom of the tip. I was just going by what we were told. It's quite possible that it isn't a kamui.
Jaden
It looks like it has a blue pad or blue portion to the bottom of the tip. I was just going by what we were told. It's quite possible that it isn't a kamui.
Jaden
There looks to be a pad but the 2 layers on top of the pad look to be not black.
I may have to retract the fact that that shaft should have a hole under the ferrule, it's not the OB1 but the 2. I am pretty certain that the wood ferrule in the 1 has a hole all the way to the end, don't know about the 2. But as Eddie said, the OB guys are pretty regular visitors here and can easily confirm what should be seen when the tip is changed.
For what it's worth, I agree with Eric and KJ. Eric's statement about the linear scratches is spot on. Also about the "void", here is the instructions straight off OB's website -
"If the previous tip and pad came off prior to being cut off, it may have taken some of the center core material with it. If so, and it left any small areas open, these can be filled with 5 minute epoxy. After the epoxy has cured, face it off until you expose the surface of the ferrule and tenon."
The guy either has ground enough chalk in that you can't see it, or the carbon fiber pad is gone also.
All tip companies make some duds. I warranty any tip I put on, and although it's only been a couple out of hundreds of Kamui's installed, I've seen this happen and replaced the tip for free.
Everyone b*tches about guys not posting, here you have one of the top repair guys in the country, and a guy that makes a damn good cue, and everyone is telling them they don't know sh!t. Gotta love AZ...
Don't mind me, just some hack who doesn't know what he's talking about either
"If the previous tip and pad came off prior to being cut off, it may have taken some of the center core material with it. If so, and it left any small areas open, these can be filled with 5 minute epoxy. After the epoxy has cured, face it off until you expose the surface of the ferrule and tenon."
The guy either has ground enough chalk in that you can't see it, or the carbon fiber pad is gone also.
All tip companies make some duds. I warranty any tip I put on, and although it's only been a couple out of hundreds of Kamui's installed, I've seen this happen and replaced the tip for free.
Everyone b*tches about guys not posting, here you have one of the top repair guys in the country, and a guy that makes a damn good cue, and everyone is telling them they don't know sh!t. Gotta love AZ...
Don't mind me, just some hack who doesn't know what he's talking about either