New Tip Job....What Say Ye?

I'm not saying they don't know shit...

radge69 said:
For what it's worth, I agree with Eric and KJ. Eric's statement about the linear scratches is spot on. Also about the "void", here is the instructions straight off OB's website -

"If the previous tip and pad came off prior to being cut off, it may have taken some of the center core material with it. If so, and it left any small areas open, these can be filled with 5 minute epoxy. After the epoxy has cured, face it off until you expose the surface of the ferrule and tenon."

The guy either has ground enough chalk in that you can't see it, or the carbon fiber pad is gone also.

All tip companies make some duds. I warranty any tip I put on, and although it's only been a couple out of hundreds of Kamui's installed, I've seen this happen and replaced the tip for free.

Everyone b*tches about guys not posting, here you have one of the top repair guys in the country, and a guy that makes a damn good cue, and everyone is telling them they don't know sh!t. Gotta love AZ...

Don't mind me, just some hack who doesn't know what he's talking about either :)
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I'm not saying they don't know shit. I also don't know about the specifics of how the OB's are designed.

I have designed LD shafts and repaired many of them and have installed more kamuis than I can count.

Your quoting of OB's site doesn't change anything I said. This repair guy wasn't putting a tip on after a tip and pad broke off the shaft.

He took off the old tip. So that doesn't change anything about what I said.

If OB does recommend using 5 minute epoxy to fill in removed filler material, then ok. I already said I don't know the specifics of OB's ld designs. Although if there is too much of a recess, adding epoxy CAN add end mass and change the LD characteristics still.

Jaden
 
Allen Brown said:
I am shooting League tonight and a friend was asking me if I had a burnisher or a good tip tool. He showed me what he wanted it for and I almost fell out in the floor when he showed me his "new " tip he had put on by a "new" cue repairman.

I don't think he will be in business long. He told my buddy that when he cut the old tip off there was a hole in the top of his ferrule so he filled it in with epoxy for him. His shaft is a OB Classic Pro. The tip is a Kamui Black. Here are some pics......
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The problem is you don't know when those scratches occurred or who put them there. If the guy was trying to sell you a new burnisher or tip tool it is possible/likely he did that himself.

One way to find out would be to hand him your cue and ask him to work on the tip for you with his burnisher/tip tool.
 
Jaden said:
Jumping to this being a prior tip replacement butchering that this guy tried to fix as a conclusion is taking a big leap IMO.
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Not a leap at all. The pic clearly shows clear evidence of OLD scratch lines that run opposite of scratches that could be caused by a lathe. By old I mean that it takes some time & lots of play to get that much grime & chalk entirely imbedded into the scratches. Seeing as how that tip is obviously new, those scratches didn't result from the latest tip job. If not for those obviously old damage marks, I'd have never chimed in. Those marks come from a very bad hack, hand tip job, or else very destructive & careless tip maintenance by the owner. Considering the shaft is as nasty as the ferrule, it's fairly safe to assume the owner does very little with the shaft except play with it. That leaves a previous hack tip job as the most plausible culprit.

Again, not arguing with anybody, just stating my own opinion. In this case, clarifying my previous statement. Simply put, if the recent repair guy screwed it up, those scratches would be whiter than the material around it, exposing the new surface. They're not. They're deeply imbedded with grit from playing, which takes time. The tip wear doesn't match the ferrule wear, so it's not a leap to conclude that there was work done previously. Easy as it may be, blaming the new guy isn't right. He did a completely acceptable job considering what he had to work with. Since he was the last person to work on the cue, it's his name attached to it. He will learn a valuable lesson with this, and not about repairs, but rather about the pool players he has chosen for his target market.
 
kewl beans...

qbilder said:
Not a leap at all. The pic clearly shows clear evidence of OLD scratch lines that run opposite of scratches that could be caused by a lathe. By old I mean that it takes some time & lots of play to get that much grime & chalk entirely imbedded into the scratches. Seeing as how that tip is obviously new, those scratches didn't result from the latest tip job. If not for those obviously old damage marks, I'd have never chimed in. Those marks come from a very bad hack, hand tip job, or else very destructive & careless tip maintenance by the owner. Considering the shaft is as nasty as the ferrule, it's fairly safe to assume the owner does very little with the shaft except play with it. That leaves a previous hack tip job as the most plausible culprit.

Again, not arguing with anybody, just stating my own opinion. In this case, clarifying my previous statement. Simply put, if the recent repair guy screwed it up, those scratches would be whiter than the material around it, exposing the new surface. They're not. They're deeply imbedded with grit from playing, which takes time. The tip wear doesn't match the ferrule wear, so it's not a leap to conclude that there was work done previously. Easy as it may be, blaming the new guy isn't right. He did a completely acceptable job considering what he had to work with. Since he was the last person to work on the cue, it's his name attached to it. He will learn a valuable lesson with this, and not about repairs, but rather about the pool players he has chosen for his target market.
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I can see where you're coming from on the scratches...

Jaden
 
qbilder said:
Not a leap at all. The pic clearly shows clear evidence of OLD scratch lines that run opposite of scratches that could be caused by a lathe. By old I mean that it takes some time & lots of play to get that much grime & chalk entirely imbedded into the scratches. Seeing as how that tip is obviously new, those scratches didn't result from the latest tip job. If not for those obviously old damage marks, I'd have never chimed in. Those marks come from a very bad hack, hand tip job, or else very destructive & careless tip maintenance by the owner. Considering the shaft is as nasty as the ferrule, it's fairly safe to assume the owner does very little with the shaft except play with it. That leaves a previous hack tip job as the most plausible culprit.

Again, not arguing with anybody, just stating my own opinion. In this case, clarifying my previous statement. Simply put, if the recent repair guy screwed it up, those scratches would be whiter than the material around it, exposing the new surface. They're not. They're deeply imbedded with grit from playing, which takes time. The tip wear doesn't match the ferrule wear, so it's not a leap to conclude that there was work done previously. Easy as it may be, blaming the new guy isn't right. He did a completely acceptable job considering what he had to work with. Since he was the last person to work on the cue, it's his name attached to it. He will learn a valuable lesson with this, and not about repairs, but rather about the pool players he has chosen for his target market.
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I agree with this as well. Those scratches are not new and look at the chalk build up on the clear part of the tip! I am willing to bet he chalks his cue with a deep piece of chalk and wears it out. The tip is mushroomed and yes the clear pad is a little fatter than the ferrule. To get those scratches out of that ferrule you would have to take a good bit of material off and it would make that ferrule pretty thin. The fix is pretty easy as far as flushing up the tip with the ferrule...no biggie. I think the colors that everyone is seeing on the tip is just a reflection of the lighting where ever the picture was taken.
 
Tip and ferrule

By the sound of it the cue had been played with after the tip was replaced.
We have no idea how the ferruled looked before the repair and at this point it really doesn't make a difference in less the owner of the shaft plans on taking some kind of legal action if that is even possible,

Because the new tip installation looks like it was done by hand and not on a lathe leave a giant question of how good this repairman's workmanship really is, and I would be worried about two things.

Did this repair void the shafts warranty ?
And is there a risk that this repair will lead to future problems in a Laminated shaft cracking or delaminating.

To me very few owners of a OB shafts want the shaft sanded down to a smaller OD.
Because after someone cleans that ferrule up its going to be smaller...

Personally I would replace the ferrule , install a fiber pad and reinstall the tip if its worth a shit after it has been remove.

I know OB cues uses a short ferrule but that ferrule looks like its been shortened even more then normal.

The tip installation looks extremely sloppy ....

I don't like saying this but if a cue repairman is not up to date on how to repair some of these LD shafts or they don't have the factory ferrules IMO they shouldn't take the Job.

When anyone hands me a LD shaft for any kind or repair, I inspect the shaft very closely because they have special ferrules and I have seen allot of the Laminated shafts come in with cracked ferrules and cracked, warped or delaminated shafts.

If I got that shaft in for repairs and the ferrule was in that shape I would tell the customer to spring for a knew ferrule and then would of trained the owner how shape the tip without scratching the ferrule.

Bottom line, the shaft needs cleaned the tip and ferrule look like terrible.............
 
exactly...

mortuarymike-nv said:
By the sound of it the cue had been played with after the tip was replaced.
We have no idea how the ferruled looked before the repair and at this point it really doesn't make a difference in less the owner of the shaft plans on taking some kind of legal action if that is even possible,

Because the new tip installation looks like it was done by hand and not on a lathe leave a giant question of how good this repairman's workmanship really is, and I would be worried about two things.

Did this repair void the shafts warranty ?
And is there a risk that this repair will lead to future problems in a Laminated shaft cracking or delaminating.

To me very few owners of a OB shafts want the shaft sanded down to a smaller OD.
Because after someone cleans that ferrule up its going to be smaller...

Personally I would replace the ferrule , install a fiber pad and reinstall the tip if its worth a shit after it has been remove.

I know OB cues uses a short ferrule but that ferrule looks like its been shortened even more then normal.

The tip installation looks extremely sloppy ....

I don't like saying this but if a cue repairman is not up to date on how to repair some of these LD shafts or they don't have the factory ferrules IMO they shouldn't take the Job.

When anyone hands me a LD shaft for any kind or repair, I inspect the shaft very closely because they have special ferrules and I have seen allot of the Laminated shafts come in with cracked ferrules and cracked, warped or delaminated shafts.

If I got that shaft in for repairs and the ferrule was in that shape I would tell the customer to spring for a knew ferrule and then would of trained the owner how shape the tip without scratching the ferrule.

Bottom line, the shaft needs cleaned the tip and ferrule look like terrible.............
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I just had a customer who wanted me to turn down their shaft, and put a kamui on it.

First he asked me to turn it down to 11.25... I said that's probably smaller than you want and he agreed to 11.75 instead.

I took the shaft to my shop and saw that it was a shitty ferrule (translucent material) with several cracks in it.

It was a rather cheap, standard shaft. I went ahead and replaced the ferrule for him and took it down to 12.00...

When I gave it to him I explained that I went ahead and gave him a new ferrule at no charge because of the cracks in the old ferrule and that I had turned it down to 12 instead of 11.75. I explained that we can always take it down more, but never add back what we take off.

I also put one of my tips on it and told him to try it and if he liked it fine, if not I would install the kamui down the road for free and that if he wanted it turned down more, no problem I would with no additional charge for that either.

He was happier than a pig in slop and I imagine that any time he wants a new tip, new cue or shaft or work done, I'll be getting the request...

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
It looks like it has a blue pad or blue portion to the bottom of the tip. I was just going by what we were told. It's quite possible that it isn't a kamui.

Jaden
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That at the bottom appeared to be glue and chalk in person.
 
I wished I would've taken pictures of the other 3 shafts that the new repairman showed me two weeks ago when he started doing these replacements. They were equally as bad or worse. The scratches on this ferrule were almost positively there before the tip replacement.

The tip had no mushrooming at all.......it just wasn't cut flush with the ferrule. The repairman did put the SAME TIP on this shaft once before and it popped off before there was even a shot taken with it. I think this is why the tip looks like it has a fiber pad, but there is not one on here. I also think this is when the ferrule got cut down to get the glue off from the first time he replaced this tip.

The tip should be flush with the ferrule and not sticking out like it is. My pictures wouldn't focus, but there is at least a fingernails width hanging out all around it. The shaft being dirty as all get out doesn't help the pics much either. Another note......this shaft has had 3 years of play and I don't know how many times it has been cleaned(probably zero).
 
yeah...

Allen Brown said:
I wished I would've taken pictures of the other 3 shafts that the new repairman showed me two weeks ago when he started doing these replacements. They were equally as bad or worse. The scratches on this ferrule were almost positively there before the tip replacement.

The tip had no mushrooming at all.......it just wasn't cut flush with the ferrule. The repairman did put the SAME TIP on this shaft once before and it popped off before there was even a shot taken with it. I think this is why the tip looks like it has a fiber pad, but there is not one on here. I also think this is when the ferrule got cut down to get the glue off from the first time he replaced this tip.

The tip should be flush with the ferrule and not sticking out like it is. My pictures wouldn't focus, but there is at least a fingernails width hanging out all around it. The shaft being dirty as all get out doesn't help the pics much either. Another note......this shaft has had 3 years of play and I don't know how many times it has been cleaned(probably zero).
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That's what it looked like to me when I first looked at the pictures.

It looked like it just wasn't taken down flush in the first two pics, the last one looked like it might be mushroomed which is why I edited that post.

Yeah, you saying that it popped off may explain some things.

I've noticed that the tenon through ferrule types tend to pop tips off more readily because of the different materials sticking to the tip and the way glue sticks differently to different materials.

The best type of ferrule are the solid end ferrules IMO.

There are different possibilities here, but I'm still leaning towards the repairman trimming part of the ferrule and ending up opening up a hollow part behind the ferrule.

he may have first just glued the new tip over the recess and after it popped off, filled in the recess with the epoxy like he said to give additional backing and reattached the tip.

regardless, I don't see this as being an overly competent tip job.

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
I just had a customer who wanted me to turn down their shaft, and put a kamui on it.

First he asked me to turn it down to 11.25... I said that's probably smaller than you want and he agreed to 11.75 instead.

I took the shaft to my shop and saw that it was a shitty ferrule (translucent material) with several cracks in it.

It was a rather cheap, standard shaft. I went ahead and replaced the ferrule for him and took it down to 12.00...

When I gave it to him I explained that I went ahead and gave him a new ferrule at no charge because of the cracks in the old ferrule and that I had turned it down to 12 instead of 11.75. I explained that we can always take it down more, but never add back what we take off.

I also put one of my tips on it and told him to try it and if he liked it fine, if not I would install the kamui down the road for free and that if he wanted it turned down more, no problem I would with no additional charge for that either.

He was happier than a pig in slop and I imagine that any time he wants a new tip, new cue or shaft or work done, I'll be getting the request...

Jaden
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So, you didn't do a single thing he asked for but think you've a customer for life? Erm...:shrug::scratchhead:
 
Imho

All tips mushroom a little. I read all the claims, but I press every tip and after a week of play my blade can always find a little leather. Now this tip is mushroomed more than I would expect, but they left the tip pretty tall for what looks like a 11.75 shaft. It would be interesting to trim the mushroom, shorten it a bit now and see if it stops. Also, that ferrule length makes it look like one of the I-3 shafts from McDermott.
The hole. I wouldn't leave a hole or depression directly under a tip.
The scratches look like they came from someone using a tip tool incorrectly. I have seen them before and that's what my customer did. I saw him in league using a wallowed out Chalk Cube. Working it back and forth between shots. He threw it away after I showed him what he was doing but the damage was done.
Lastly, on KJ, I can't tell you how much knowledge he and others here on AZ have imparted on me as I have worked at learning this trade. He is my absolute go to guy when I have questions about Predator shafts and LD shafts in general. I wouldn't be too quick to discount his posts. like I said I'm gratefull for the learnings he has passed on to me. Just my two cents, and I hope I have helped.
Mikey
 
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yep...

Ron Swanson said:
So, you didn't do a single thing he asked for but think you've a customer for life? Erm...:shrug::scratchhead:
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Yep... because sometimes it's about doing MORE for the customer, about anticipating what they're looking to get as opposed to what they are asking for.

If someone asks to turn a shaft into a pencil for the first ten inches, and then 9 mm for the next ten tapering back to .85 inches, then you'd be an idiot to do what they want.

It's better to either understand what they want and or qualify what they want.

If I had just turned the shaft down to 11.25mm and it was too thin, then he's out the cost of the shaft. So instead I explain that that is really thin and show him a shaft I have that is similar to that and he realizes that it IS too thin.

I instead turn it down to 12mm and give him the option of having it turned down farther after he gets a chance to see how he likes that.

Most people wouldn't be willing to put in the extra effort to do that.

I knew what he was looking for by asking for a kamui, so I got him a kamui but put another tip that would give him what he's looking for for free and told him to see if that meets his goals like I thought it would and say I will go ahead and put the kamui on for you for free if that doesn't give you what you're looking for. Again taking on the burden of potentially more work and expense to try and save the customer more in the future while giving him what he's looking for.

So yes, giving the customer what he wants, rather than just what he asks for and going above and beyond to do so WILL give you a customer for life because most people can sense when you're looking out for them versus looking at your bottom line only.

Jaden
 
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Jaden said:
Yep... because sometimes it's about doing MORE for the customer, about anticipating what they're looking to get as opposed to what they are asking for.

If someone asks to turn a shaft into a pencil for the first ten inches, and then 9 mm for the next ten tapering back to .85 inches, then you'd be an idiot to do what they want.

It's better to either understand what they want and or qualify what they want.

If I had just turned the shaft down to 11.25mm and it was too thin, then he's out the cost of the shaft. So instead I explain that that is really thin and show him a shaft I have that is similar to that and he realizes that it IS too thin.

I instead turn it down to 12mm and give him the option of having it turned down farther after he gets a chance to see how he likes that.

Most people wouldn't be willing to put in the extra effort to do that.

I knew what he was looking for by asking for a kamui, so I got him a kamui but put another tip that would give him what he's looking for for free and told him to see if that meets his goals like I thought it would and say I will go ahead and put the kamui on for you for free if that doesn't give you what you're looking for. Again taking on the burden of potentially more work and expense to try and save the customer more in the future while giving him what he's looking for.

So yes, giving the customer what he wants, rather than just what he asks for and going above and beyond to do so WILL give you a customer for life because most people can sense when you're looking out for them versus looking at your bottom line only.

Jaden
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I wouldn't use you again.
 
Yeah he packed the butt full of BB's that had eventually shifted and rattled loose. (Yes BB's all over the floor when we took off the bumper.)
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Doesn't surprise me.

Ryan, Rat Cues, from Muellars could show you many pictures of that type of repair.


As a side. I have a friend that is an Electrical Engineer. He is planning on buying a Hightower lathe. He hasn't touched a larger lathe in his life let alone a Cue Lathe.

He brought over a cue that needed a joint collar. Other than boring out a piece of phenolic material for him, he did the rest of the repair.

He did a fine job for his first crack at a cue lathe. Considering that a collar is fairly straight forward, yet, he was able to get the material
100% even with the rest of the cue and shaft collar. I gave him a bottle of water poly and he even put a nice finish on it.

I imagine that he will end up doing well with his own lathe.
 
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I believe that all OB shafts use a carbon fiber pad between the ferrule and the tip. If the pad is removed or missing, any voids in the foam under the pad should be filled with epoxy. The epoxy should be sanded flat and a new carbon fiber pad should be installed. There are two types of carbon fiber pads, one for playing shafts and a thicker one for break shafts.
 
I would

Ron Swanson said:
I wouldn't use you again.
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Me and Jaden always haven't seen eye to eye...........................................
But Jayden is a perfectionist when it comes down to repairing pool cues............

I have no problem with him working on one of my cues...................

Just because you or I seem to share our opinions allot or even to much creating personal problems between you and other members just like I do is no reason to think that person doesn't know cues and doesn't know how to repair them either.

Jaden knows how to repair cues and he stands behind his work.............

He is a perfectionist and i would expect nothing less then a picture perfect workman ship from him............

Regardless if i get along with him or not................
 
Allen Brown said:
I am shooting League tonight and a friend was asking me if I had a burnisher or a good tip tool. He showed me what he wanted it for and I almost fell out in the floor when he showed me his "new " tip he had put on by a "new" cue repairman.

I don't think he will be in business long. He told my buddy that when he cut the old tip off there was a hole in the top of his ferrule so he filled it in with epoxy for him. His shaft is a OB Classic Pro. The tip is a Kamui Black. Here are some pics......
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Back up your camera. I believe it is having problem focusing because it is too close to the cue tip. Take it farther back so it can focus and crop it later.
 
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