I agree on both counts. That 19th game was won by Schmidt on his 16th inning of the game. The game included 23 safeties, 6 missed shots, and one scratch!!!
Here's a thread with some other stats: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=281587
Nice to be vindicated on 8-ball
- Thread starter Ghosst
- Start date
I agree on both counts. That 19th game was won by Schmidt on his 16th inning of the game. The game included 23 safeties, 6 missed shots, and one scratch!!!
Here's a thread with some other stats: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=281587
I had one owner say to me that he did not like it because people were sitting around just watching the matches instead of playing pool.
Agreed. When is the last time you saw a rack of 9 or 10 ball last 20 minutes with pro players not sure what to do?
9 ball became popular because it was fast and you need fast for TV, but pool on TV is deader than Elvis and on the internet there is no time constraints, so it's time for a more strategic game to make a come back and it's nice to see pros agreeing with that as well.
I just watched game 19 on the loop and it took 33 minutes. I found it real interesting how these guys were passing on shots in order to move balls. Gotta keep your soldiers on the battlefield if you can't get out. I need to remember that.
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The best pool I ever watched was the IPT qualifer at HT in Bellflower. The tables were recovered in a slow cloth prior to the event. There were players from all over the world and damn could they play. After 2 days Dennis Orcollo ended up beating Oliver Ortmann in an absolutely great Hill/Hill match. Never enjoyed a tournament more!
don't sleep on the 8-ball race to 60. i guess that django would never lose that one either. but if you wanna see a player outsmart someone and get creative to win a long set, this might be the one...
the one problem i see with 8 ball being the mainstream pro game for the general public to watch is that pro 8 ball is different than they 8 ball they play. i mean most casual people play bar rules where its all offense and have no concept of defense or safety. if pool is to be more exciting, 8 ball isn't going to help....it can be a very slow and tactical game. sure, when the rack is wide open, it's quick, but when there's trouble spots, a rack can take forever and get bogged down with safety play that the general public doesn't want to watch. it also takes players sometimes a large amount of time to study the rack in spots to figure out the runout which slows down the game even more....9 ball the pattern is already given to you. i watched a lot of the IPT matches and thought it was overall much slower and less exciting than 9 ball. sure, everyone knows the game in some sense, but i'm not really sure 8 ball is exciting enough to all of a sudden make people interested in watching pool
Of course this to do with the equipment and not the 15 balls of 8-ball. It's not some kind of unsubstantiated urban myth when Niels told us on TAR that he ran over 30 racks in a row of 8-ball on a big table.
I agree/disagree I've always said more 8 ball should be played on tv because thats what I feel is the most played game in this country. Especially now that league play is what seems to be keeping pool alive. I would rather see it played on bar box tables though. It's just to easy on 9 foot tables. What's supposed to be the challenge of 8 ball is having to break up clusters and put the cue ball in tight places in that initial run. This seems to be nullified on a big table. 9 and 10 ball are tough on a bigger table because you have to move the cue ball over longer distances.. You can't break the table down in thirds like you can in 8 ball and it seems more then time then not the rack is laying wide open.
It's funny this is brought up because I saw a good 8 ball bar table player last night playing on the big tables at the club and what I said above was right on the money. He played good 8 ball because he didn't have to move the cue ball over long distances and everything was laying over but as soon as he started playing 9 ball it was all over. Your gonna have to shoot stroke shot on a big table and with that short pokey bar box stroke he wasn't gonna get it done. On the other hand 9 ball on a bar box isnt as tough because you can anywhere with a little spin and a medium smooth stroke and rarely do you have a tough shot.
It's funny this is brought up because I saw a good 8 ball bar table player last night playing on the big tables at the club and what I said above was right on the money. He played good 8 ball because he didn't have to move the cue ball over long distances and everything was laying over but as soon as he started playing 9 ball it was all over. Your gonna have to shoot stroke shot on a big table and with that short pokey bar box stroke he wasn't gonna get it done. On the other hand 9 ball on a bar box isnt as tough because you can anywhere with a little spin and a medium smooth stroke and rarely do you have a tough shot.
Min-pool?
To all bar box haters.
I played hours of pool on toy tables (2' x 4') as a child. It cultivated my interest enough to sneak into the pool halls and get on a 9-footer.
I understand why Americans might call bar boxes "mini-pool". It's because most of us grew up calling the 9-footers "big" tables. Years ago, those who played on 12-foot tables called 10-footers "mini-tables", and the same when they shrunk from 10 to 9 feet.
The invention of the bar box allowed pool to be played in thousands of places that didn't have room for an 8-footer let alone a 9-footer. Bar boxes brought countless more people to the game. Standards for bar tables were established in the 1960s. We would not have the national amateur events that we have today, were it not for the 7' table!
For myself, I've enjoyed playing on tables of all sizes, with one exception. Some 20+ years ago I played in a very large amateur event run by a famous player/promoter. He had the gall to rent a room full of 6-foot tables that played worse than those 4-footers I shot on as a child!
It's much more important to me that a table is in good playing condition than what size it is...
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
To all bar box haters.
I played hours of pool on toy tables (2' x 4') as a child. It cultivated my interest enough to sneak into the pool halls and get on a 9-footer.
I understand why Americans might call bar boxes "mini-pool". It's because most of us grew up calling the 9-footers "big" tables. Years ago, those who played on 12-foot tables called 10-footers "mini-tables", and the same when they shrunk from 10 to 9 feet.
The invention of the bar box allowed pool to be played in thousands of places that didn't have room for an 8-footer let alone a 9-footer. Bar boxes brought countless more people to the game. Standards for bar tables were established in the 1960s. We would not have the national amateur events that we have today, were it not for the 7' table!
For myself, I've enjoyed playing on tables of all sizes, with one exception. Some 20+ years ago I played in a very large amateur event run by a famous player/promoter. He had the gall to rent a room full of 6-foot tables that played worse than those 4-footers I shot on as a child!
It's much more important to me that a table is in good playing condition than what size it is...
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Interesting ideas, but I realize what a barbox is for and appreciate the smaller tables for exposing more people to the sport. But no matter who plays on them, or what variation they play, it's still not a pro-level table.
PS: I'm not American. Alberta is north of the border, above Montana.
PPS: Mini pool was akin to mini golf.
Pro level table?
Seems odd then, that so many pros got their start on bar tables, and still play in bar box tournaments. I've seen 16 members of the BCA Hall of Fame playing on bar tables, - I'm sure there were more.
I've seen guys playing for $1,000 a rack on bar tables. Never saw much of that kind of stuff on a mini-golf course!
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Seems odd then, that so many pros got their start on bar tables, and still play in bar box tournaments. I've seen 16 members of the BCA Hall of Fame playing on bar tables, - I'm sure there were more.
I've seen guys playing for $1,000 a rack on bar tables. Never saw much of that kind of stuff on a mini-golf course!
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
All of that is very interesting too. I'm quite sure if you offered Tiger cheap money (40-50K) playing mini golf he'd try it for giggles. Fact is $1000 is a bad tip from a golfer, $1000 is a massive payday for a pool player. They do whatever they have to in order to make ends meet.
Honestly, you can jump up and down, light fires, scream at the top of your lungs and it won't change what is. Pros don't play mini golf, and they shouldn't be forced to play on little tables in dingy bars for scraps. That's great for a league player, but I'm not buying into a stream if it's barboxes. I can watch amateurs at my local hall for the price of beer.
Now then, back on track without the "save my barbox", it was great to see them play and admire 8-ball. Corey even remarked how the game gets harder at the end. They may not have gushed, but both players have great respect for it. It's about time it got some love.
Honestly, you can jump up and down, light fires, scream at the top of your lungs and it won't change what is. Pros don't play mini golf, and they shouldn't be forced to play on little tables in dingy bars for scraps. That's great for a league player, but I'm not buying into a stream if it's barboxes. I can watch amateurs at my local hall for the price of beer.
Now then, back on track without the "save my barbox", it was great to see them play and admire 8-ball. Corey even remarked how the game gets harder at the end. They may not have gushed, but both players have great respect for it. It's about time it got some love.
I see your point, but let's not forget the toughness of the table played a part in slowing these guys down.
More importantly though, we know from decades of research that 9 Ball is not the answer to appealing to the masses and making for a viable TV offering.
It's a chicken and egg thing (more like a catch-22 thing really). Watching pool just does not appeal to the non-pool player. On the other hand, given the responses to the first leg of TAR 28 it seems pretty obvious that pool players liked watching 8 Ball. So the key to making it a successful professional sport might just have to be to make pool players out of enough non-pool players. And if enough do become pool players then they would have the appreciation for the strategy to enjoy watching 8 Ball.
Of course, once we've made pool players out of all these people, then we have to figure out a way to get into the wallets of all these new nits we've created.
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Agreed, Imo one of the facets of 8 ball is having to play tight position in congested layouts. You lose that on a 9 footer.
Barbox is a completely different beast as well, which is very enjoyable. Players can be more aggressive and it allows for morecreativity.
8 ball on a tight 9ft can get greasy with tic tackle safety's which slows things considerably.
I guess it depends on if you want to watch nothing but pure offence all the time. The reaason some people like to watch 1-pocket is BECAUSE of the tactics involved that you do not see in rotation pool, the moves. 8-ball while nowhere near tactically focused and slow as 1-pocket DOES bring a blend of that into the game to go along with spurts of offence and runout pool. That is why I like 8-ball as the professional game, it gives the viewers a little bit of everything.
Also as far as amature players watching strategic safety battles they do not normally play, that does not have to be a bad thing, the general public could be alot more knowledgable about actual proper 8-ball play if the game went mainstream and people started to watch it. Watching Kasparov play chess is not inherently boring because he sometimes moves his pieces many times in a row without ever taking an opponents piece.
i was basing my previous post on what the average joe would want to watch. as hardcore pool players, we are all already watching! 
sure, i like to watch safety play and tactical battles, but non-pool players definitely don't. i don't really know what the solution is to bring pool to the masses, but i just think if they switched everything from 9-ball to 8-ball, nothing would really change.
sure, i like to watch safety play and tactical battles, but non-pool players definitely don't. i don't really know what the solution is to bring pool to the masses, but i just think if they switched everything from 9-ball to 8-ball, nothing would really change.
"Forced to play on little tables"?
I have never suggested nor have I ever heard anyone else suggest that pros be "forced to play on little tables...". Nor am I talking about playing in "dingy bars for scraps". The $1,000 bar table games I saw were in clean, smoke-free environments on new tables. They were between well-known professionals and even world champions. I doubt they were "forced" to play on those tables.
I met a guy once who played OK, but always lost on bar boxes because he had little cue ball control. He hated those "little tables". That wasn't you, was it?
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
I have never suggested nor have I ever heard anyone else suggest that pros be "forced to play on little tables...". Nor am I talking about playing in "dingy bars for scraps". The $1,000 bar table games I saw were in clean, smoke-free environments on new tables. They were between well-known professionals and even world champions. I doubt they were "forced" to play on those tables.
I met a guy once who played OK, but always lost on bar boxes because he had little cue ball control. He hated those "little tables". That wasn't you, was it?
Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
I am Filipino and have extreme bias towards rotation :grin:
I also just realized after reading some of the posts here and looked back at all the pool games that I have played; I prolly have played a total of 10 hours of 8Ball in my life. Very rarely do you go to a pool hall here and see anyone playing 8ball or any other variant of pool that isnt rotation.
I also just realized after reading some of the posts here and looked back at all the pool games that I have played; I prolly have played a total of 10 hours of 8Ball in my life. Very rarely do you go to a pool hall here and see anyone playing 8ball or any other variant of pool that isnt rotation.
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But Darren, do you consider 9 and 10 Ball to be the same thing as Rotation, 61 points wins? Personally, I don't.