No Aiming System?

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not sure how I'm baiting or hopping on you. Asking questions about instructor qualifications is not baiting. It is discussion. You came close to a discussion when you agreed that Pat should be able to discuss physics and geometry without being attacked.

Are you saying PJ is an instructor. Have you taken one of his lessons. Curious on the feedback from said lesson
 

nine_ball6970

585 speed drunk
Silver Member
Are you saying PJ is an instructor. Have you taken one of his lessons. Curious on the feedback from said lesson

Whether you agree with him or not, I think it is safe to say PJ is very knowledgeable about pool in general. I think he could teach most players a thing or two even if he does not give formal lessons.

Heck I could help players below my speed and some above based on observations and things I feel I know more about regarding certain aspects of pool. I wouldn't mess with fundamentals too much but can tell people better ways to play patterns and execute safeties which become more important as you move up the ladder.

There are many very smart people on this forum. It is unfortunate people get caught up on CTE and then dismiss anything else said by an individual.
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
Whether you agree with him or not, I think it is safe to say PJ is very knowledgeable about pool in general. I think he could teach most players a thing or two even if he does not give formal lessons.

Heck I could help players below my speed and some above based on observations and things I feel I know more about regarding certain aspects of pool. I wouldn't mess with fundamentals too much but can tell people better ways to play patterns and execute safeties which become more important as you move up the ladder.

There are many very smart people on this forum. It is unfortunate people get caught up on CTE and then dismiss anything else said by an individual.

Good post. Unfortunately, most people assume expertise can only come from experience. The word "expert" may have originated from the word "experience", but that's about as close to hand-in-hand as they get. Studies have shown, from almost every career field (from wine tasters to stock market traders, musicians, teachers, athletes, law, business, medical, etc....), experience is not the major contributing factor leading to expertise. Quantity does not automatically equate to quality.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I don't know if PJ is an instructor or not. You can ask him.

You were asking questions about instructor qualifications. He's listed on Dave Alciatore's website as an AFFILATE instructor.

http://billiarduniversity.org/instructors.html

http://billiarduniversity.org/instructor_list.html

I don't know what qualifications are required for being named one other than blood brother friends but maybe he can list them. Where did he go for "Train The Trainer" to be classified and certified as one? Then again, Fast Larry is also listed as an instructor there. What does that tell you?

You do know there's a forum here called "ASK THE INSTRUCTOR". It gets a lot of action. Nobody is stopping him from posting there. All you have to do is say, "I AM AN INSTRUCTOR, I AM AN INSTRUCTOR, I AM AN INSTRUCTOR" three times and you're officially qualified and appointed as one.

Here it is: http://forums.azbilliards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=78

Lets face it, ANYBODY can be an instructor or call themselves one. My brother and I went to a driving range one day and there was a guy giving another guy some heavy duty lessons. The one giving the lessons could barely break 100. The one getting the lessons couldn't break 125. So it's all relative. I guess you could say the 100 shooter was a good instructor for the 125 shooter if he was able to drop his score down 25 strokes to his hacking ass level.

With all the work you've put into it, you should call yourself the STROKE INSTRUCTOR.

Now don't bother me any more.
 
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SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Good post. Unfortunately, most people assume expertise can only come from experience. The word "expert" may have originated from the word "experience", but that's about as close to hand-in-hand as they get. Studies have shown, from almost every career field (from wine tasters to stock market traders, musicians, teachers, athletes, law, business, medical, etc....), experience is not the major contributing factor leading to expertise. Quantity does not automatically equate to quality.


Let's pick 3 areas of interest in your life, at least that I know about.

POOL, GOLF, and GUITAR.

If you could have TWO LESSONS in each category above from different people, who would you choose and why?

IOW, two different instructors for pool, two different instructors for golf, and two different instructors for guitar.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I don't know if PJ is an instructor or not. You can ask him.
I hate to give this conversation any oxygen, but I'll confirm that I'm not what I'd call an instructor - I think that takes a special set of teaching skills beyond expertise in pool.

I know enough and play well enough, and have given some individual and group lessons in fundamentals on request - I even taught a non-credit beginners pool course at Northwestern some years ago. But I don't think having knowledge and playing experience is the same as having teaching skills, and I don't think I'm well qualified in that way to be a hands-on "instructor".

But that has little to do with sharing knowledge here in a written-word forum.

pj
chgo
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
I hate to give this conversation any oxygen, but I'll confirm that I'm not what I'd call an instructor - I think that takes a special set of teaching skills beyond expertise in pool.



I know enough and play well enough, and have given some individual and group lessons in fundamentals on request - I even taught a non-credit beginners pool course at Northwestern some years ago. But I don't think having knowledge and playing experience is the same as having teaching skills, and I don't think I'm well qualified in that way to be a hands-on "instructor".



But that has little to do with sharing knowledge here in a written-word forum.



pj

chgo



Well said. That said, instructor or not your one of the best explained posters in regards to the written word here or on any other billiards forums. Not to mention the plethora of info you’ve always seen that others were privy to.

To be perfectly honest we’ve butted heads in the past over ideas but I always found it to be a driving force to simplify or explain a topic or idea that much better. Wether you know it or not my own methods were bettered for others mostly through your browbeating lol.

Despite any cons I’ve always found pj to be one of our best and most informed and shared members.

More than not the rest are going tit for tat and are no less guilty for stirring up bs....hell I’ve been known to stir a pot or jump a butt pretty hard myself.

But if you think he’s a troll . Then player you either haven’t been here long enough or posted enough or paid enough attention.

And I get really tired of hearing all the this guy is in cahoots with that guy, instructor Illuminati, I was Neil’s son and all kinds of stupid crap. Many of us know each other personally and the rest, well most of us have been basically everyday posters since the site came to be.....and some of us were posting other places together before that. With all the newbs and true trolls uh of course we kinda stick together to a degree.

If someone needs a jacket patch or something I’m sure we can get you one 🤣

To be perfectly honest....I don’t see much difference between either PJ or dan, both are very similar in what they bring and how y’all talk about it an to others imop Which is probably why y’all be hunting for each other’s balls all time.

Kiss and make up,
-greyghost







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To be perfectly honest....I don’t see much difference between either PJ or dan, both are very similar in what they bring and how y’all talk about it an to others imop Which is probably why y’all be hunting for each other’s balls all time.

Kiss and make up,
-greyghost

Dude, what a nice compliment! I know the student union Pat taught a class at, so I guess maybe that means he's my uncle??

I gotta say you crack me up every time you post something (in a good way). "Hunting for each other's balls"... never heard that one before. Must be a coonass thing? :rotflmao:
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Dude, what a nice compliment! I know the student union Pat taught a class at, so I guess maybe that means he's my uncle??



I gotta say you crack me up every time you post something (in a good way). "Hunting for each other's balls"... never heard that one before. Must be a coonass thing? :rotflmao:



I do have an odd way with words for a spring chicken (33) .....it’s not a coonass thing, tho of course we do say things considered odd to others

Like

When at the store
“You wanna get down?” (Means are you coming inside)

“Keaw” means I amazed

I use a lot of metaphors as I’m a pretty solid polymath and will pull from whatever to get my point across no matter how silly it may seem to myself or others, generally the sillier the better as laughter is good for students as it opens them up to new ideas instead of being very uptight and not wanting to participate or try new things. I def have no shame or shyness to do something if it will help teach someone something.

You used to see more spf guys call it the grip until I fussed enough years ago that cradle was a much better term and connotation for the conscious and subconscious brain to wrap itself around than grip. There are a lot more words we use that are not very good for the same reasons when teaching or explaining.

You should see some of the things I say and do in person joking about “aiming” and how we use our eyes everyday....I’ve never had someone not laugh and consequently agree with me on the topic....long story short our eyes work fine, we generally aren’t aligned properly as opposed to needing some new aim system.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
Let's pick 3 areas of interest in your life, at least that I know about.

POOL, GOLF, and GUITAR.

If you could have TWO LESSONS in each category above from different people, who would you choose and why?

IOW, two different instructors for pool, two different instructors for golf, and two different instructors for guitar.

Hmmmm.....tough question. I would have to research opinions on the best instructors in each of these categories. I certainly wouldn't choose the best golfers or pool players or guitarists. I mean, Joe Bonamassa is a fantastic guitar player, but that in no way means he'd be a fantastic teacher. Same goes with pro golfers or pro pool players.

And I wouldn't choose an instructor simply because they've got 20 years or more of teaching experience. There are plenty of average and below average instructors out there that've been practicing the same average to below average teaching skills for decades. So I'd have to research and talk with various instructors before committing my time for lessons. I'm sure there are plenty of great options, and I would base my choices on whoever I felt had expert teaching skills. Quality trumps experience.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Hmmmm.....tough question.

Not really.

I would have to research opinions on the best instructors in each of these categories.

No you don't. Who are the top 4 in each category that immediately comes to mind? Eliminate two in each and you have your choices.

I certainly wouldn't choose the best golfers or pool players or guitarists. I mean, Joe Bonamassa is a fantastic guitar player, but that in no way means he'd be a fantastic teacher.

Why not? How do you know? You already tried picking his brain on how to move the fingers faster when needed. You're into Rock and Blues. Who taught them or did they teach themselves? If they taught themselves they must be super teachers as well as players to get where they got.

Same goes with pro golfers or pro pool players.

There are plenty of pro golf instructors who teach the elite players to choose from. They are also members of the PGA. Why wouldn't you consider a pro pool player? Are you kidding me?

And I wouldn't choose an instructor simply because they've got 20 years or more of teaching experience. There are plenty of average and below average instructors out there that've been practicing the same average to below average teaching skills for decades.

I guess if you consider yourself to be a below average player they would be good for you to elevate yourself to average. Is that what level you consider yourself at and where you want to rise? Go for it.

So I'd have to research and talk with various instructors before committing my time for lessons.

Research WHAT? This isn't for a years worth of lessons. Lets say 2 - 6 lessons. You act as if you don't know who anybody is in those three fields.
You might have to do all the research if you needed a roofer for your house or contractor because you don't know anyone or what to look for. But someone to get lessons for pool, golf, and guitar? Give me a break. It's a stall tactic because you don't want to trap yourself based on what you said previously.


I'm sure there are plenty of great options, and I would base my choices on whoever I felt had expert teaching skills. Quality trumps experience.

Quality trumps EXPERIENCE and known successes for taking players to higher levels such as championship levels. Oh boy.

This reminds me of a "septic tank" post. It's so full of sh*t and smells to high heavens with all of wordsmithing and rambling you've put into it.

For Christ sake, this isn't a life changing or Earth shattering decision. Pick TWO names in each category. Let your SUBCONSCIOUS do all the work for you without over analyzing (hard A on the first one) in the CONSCIOUS. You know how that works, right?

Here you go. I'll make my picks just to show you how simple it is:

1. GOLF - Butch Harmon - Why? Because he has elevated more players to greater heights on the PGA and LPGA tours than any other instructor. He does give private lessons to regular players also.

Phil Mickelson - Why? To learn what he does with what clubs for the short game. He may have the best short game in the history of golf.


2. POOL - Mike Sigel and Earl Strickland. Two champions to learn how they think and what their strategies are while playing in all types of games. I've already had great instruction in person with Hal Houle, Stan Shuffett, Joe Tucker, and Ron Vitello. Priceless and beyond comprehension what they teach.

3. GUITAR - You or Joe Shmo. It doesn't matter since I don't know where to plug in an electric guitar or the first thing about music. You'd be just fine for me.
 
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
Quality trumps EXPERIENCE and known successes for taking players to higher levels such as championship levels. Oh boy.

This reminds me of a "septic tank" post. It's so full of sh*t and smells to high heavens with all of wordsmithing and rambling you've put into it.

For Christ sake, this isn't a life changing or Earth shattering decision. Pick TWO names in each category. Let your SUBCONSCIOUS do all the work for you without over analyzing (hard A on the first one) in the CONSCIOUS. You know how that works, right?

Lol. Honestly, I can't name any top instructors in any category. Just as I can't ramble off a list of current superstar sports figures in football or baseball or any other team sport. It's useless information that has never cluttered my mind. Same with music..... I really like Avenged Sevenfold, Seether, Audioslave, Tool, Old Crow Medicine Show, etc...too many to list. But I can't name one person in any of those bands unless it's an iconic band like Metallica or AC/DC. Certain names are bound to be remembered due to hearing them so often.

I have no clue who first taught Bonamassa, but I'd say (like myself) he is self-taught. From the few minutes I spent with him I learned quite a bit about his playing style, but that's no indication that he'd be a good instructor, that he'd be able to teach someone else what he has taught himself.

There is a huge difference between teaching what you know and showing what you know. That was my whole point, having never taken private lessons for anything (other than for golf), I would be very picky when choosing my instructors, even for just two lessons. You might go googly-eyed over an instructor's portfolio of experience or personal achievements, but I would be more concerned with that instructor's ability to teach me something rather than show me how great they are or how great they were. So yes, If given the opporunity of selecting any two instructors for a couple of lessons in pool, golf, or guitar, I would want to research my options.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
Lol. Honestly, I can't name any top instructors in any category. Just as I can't ramble off a list of current superstar sports figures in football or baseball or any other team sport. It's useless information that has never cluttered my mind. Same with music..... I really like Avenged Sevenfold, Seether, Audioslave, Tool, Old Crow Medicine Show, etc...too many to list. But I can't name one person in any of those bands unless it's an iconic band like Metallica or AC/DC. Certain names are bound to be remembered due to hearing them so often.

I have no clue who first taught Bonamassa, but I'd say (like myself) he is self-taught. From the few minutes I spent with him I learned quite a bit about his playing style, but that's no indication that he'd be a good instructor, that he'd be able to teach someone else what he has taught himself.

There is a huge difference between teaching what you know and showing what you know. That was my whole point, having never taken private lessons for anything (other than for golf), I would be very picky when choosing my instructors, even for just two lessons. You might go googly-eyed over an instructor's portfolio of experience or personal achievements, but I would be more concerned with that instructor's ability to teach me something rather than show me how great they are or how great they were. So yes, If given the opporunity of selecting any two instructors for a couple of lessons in pool, golf, or guitar, I would want to research my options.

That's a complete back peddle and excuse for not putting yourself in a position to name someone with EXPERIENCE as an instructor or personal skill and success in those areas. Maybe you should think twice before striking computer keys once the next time.

I think everyone would choose those with a NAME, EXPERIENCE, AND SUCCESS for their high level performance in said genre as well as success in instructing others to higher levels of skill and success.

Choosing some no name just doesn't make sense unless he/she has a load of bullsh*t that makes a person think they're great.

The only reason to go with a no name or lesser name wouldn't be for anything else other than convenience and especially MONEY.

Or in my case with learning how to play a guitar, who cares. If they can play "Mary Has a Little Lamb" or "Home, Home On The Range" they're light years ahead of me and would be to my benefit. "Stairway To Heaven" would be in my next reincarnation with another instructor.

 

BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member


Here you go. I'll make my picks just to show you how simple it is:

1. GOLF - Butch Harmon - Why? Because he has elevated more players to greater heights on the PGA and LPGA tours than any other instructor. He does give private lessons to regular players also.

Phil Mickelson - Why? To learn what he does with what clubs for the short game. He may have the best short game in the history of golf.


2. POOL - Mike Sigel and Earl Strickland. Two champions to learn how they think and what their strategies are while playing in all types of games. I've already had great instruction in person with Hal Houle, Stan Shuffett, Joe Tucker, and Ron Vitello. Priceless and beyond comprehension what they teach.

3. GUITAR - You or Joe Shmo. It doesn't matter since I don't know where to plug in an electric guitar or the first thing about music. You'd be just fine for me.

I have heard great things about Butch Harmon. Phil Mickelson is my favorite pro golfer.

Not sure about lessons from Sigel or Earl. I wouldn't assume their playing skills are equivalent to their teaching skills. I've heard that a lesson with Earl is more like a personal exhibition where you get to see up close just how awesome he is. I would want to ensure that my instructor is good at spotting stroke flaws and flexible enough to recognize whether or not such flaws are actually creating a problem. I wouldn't pay an instructor to give me basic lessons on pocketing balls and how to move the cb around the table for position -- this is basic stuff that can be found in many instructional books already.

I have no reason to believe pool instructors are any different than school teachers or any other lesson givers out there. Teachers often get settled into their own bias opinions about how something should be taught or done, like the the stance or aiming when playing pool. So I'd choose my teachers wisely, based on who I think can help me with my needs, not based on popularity or an impressive row of trophies.

I'm sure I could give you great guitar lessons. And if you advanced quickly and decided you wanted to pursue jazz improv or percussion finger style, I would put you in touch with someone more in tune with that genre of music, like my buddy Spencer, who is self-taught, here: https://youtu.be/ZAxK1z-BUUk?t=45s
 
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SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
Silver Member
I have heard great things about Butch Harmon. Phil Mickelson is my favorite pro golfer.

Not sure about lessons from Sigel or Earl. I wouldn't assume their playing skills are equivalent to their teaching skills. I've heard that a lesson with Earl is more like a personal exhibition where you get to see up close just how awesome he is. I would want to ensure that my instructor is good at spotting stroke flaws and flexible enough to recognize whether or not such flaws are actually creating a problem. I wouldn't pay an instructor to give me basic lessons on pocketing balls and how to move the cb around the table for position -- this is basic stuff that can be found in many instructional books already.

Your choices are your choices. These are mine for my reasons.
Sigel plays great 14.1. I'd like to learn how he reads a rack and how he thinks his way around positioning the CB on each shot to keep it going, and going and going.
There is no instructor out there who can teach what Sigel knows because they can't do what he does or know what he knows. They don't have the EXPERIENCE and SUCCESS, or KNOWLEDGE.

Earl was a great 9 ball player as was Sigel. I could go with either or both of them primarily in planning an entire rack out after the break and deadly safeties.. Earl for entertainment value also.


I have no reason to believe pool instructors are any different than school teachers or any other lesson givers out there. Teachers often get settled into their own bias opinions about how something should be taught or done, like the the stance or aiming when playing pool. So I'd choose my teachers wisely, based on who I think can help me with my needs, not based on popularity or an impressive row of trophies.

It's not just about teaching and where there's a big disparity in a school teacher. A GREAT instructor has to be a GREAT diagnostician like a GREAT doctor. If they misdiagnose the real problem and start treating it for something else, the patient is going to get worse and maybe die.

I wouldn't want an instructor who just teaches the same curriculum to everyone. If I want something specific of my choice, then I'll seek a SPECIALIST in aiming, banks, diamond system, etc. Very few instructors are great diagnosticians. They misdiagnose more times than not or throw out band aid fixes.


I'm sure I could give you great guitar lessons. And if you advanced quickly and decided you wanted to pursue jazz improv or percussion finger style, I would put you in touch with someone more in tune with that genre of music, like my buddy Spencer, who is self-taught, here: https://youtu.be/ZAxK1z-BUUk?t=45s

It would be interesting if I had the inclination or time but I don't. I'd just rather watch or listen to Joe Bonamassa to drift off into 7th heaven.

Hell, maybe even you.
 
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