no call shot 10 ball.

And I pose this right back at you! *Why* are players playing three different ways in three different states? It's not like printed/standardized rules don't exist. The rules are printed, they are published, they are known. Yet we have people going off and playing "their own way"?



That was a challenge/gambling match! I already pointed that out in my earlier posts (the one you initially replied to, in fact). So, if both Shane and Alex agreed to, say, there would be no jump shots, you're trying to say "how does a young player learn or gain any interest?" from that? This is a straw man argument.



Nice dramatization, but a non-starter. For one thing, if someone were to come to me to learn how to play 10-ball, I certainly wouldn't approach it the same way I used to present information in this thread. I would teach them WPA rules. I wouldn't even think twice. Why? Because these rules are published, world-standardized, and well-known. I can literally say, "go here at this URL, and those are the rules." I would play with this person using the WPA rules. Only later, after the person is familiar with the rules, would I even consider offering the notion that there are "rule extensions" that other tours play by.

-Sean

You're missing the point. The REASON why there are 3 sets of rules in 3 different states is because the pros play by a hodgepodge of different variations. Bangers are going to ask the best players what the rules are. The REASON why the pros play by so many different sets of rules, is because the "standard" rules are faulty.

PS: I know I'm exaggerating a little bit, so here's a real life situation that happens almost weekly to me.

Playing 8ball
Banger: Hey Drew. What is the rule here?
Drew: Well, it depends. What rules are you guys playing by?
Banger: Oh...there's different rules?
Drew: Yup. You have BCA, APA, and bar rules.
Banger: Oh, I didn't know that...


It's at the point where even I have to ask about the damn 10ball rules.
 
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You're missing the point. The REASON why there are 3 sets of rules in 3 different states is because the pros play by a hodgepodge of different variations. Bangers are going to ask the best players what the rules are. The REASON why the pros play by so many different sets of rules, is because the "standard" rules are faulty.

It's funny, because from my side, I think you're missing the point. There's not a "hodgepodge" of different variations. There are only two rulesets -- the WPA rules, and those tours that implement one extra rule (on top of the WPA rules, as a base) to deal with what to do after a missed called shot. That's the only discrepancy between the two rulesets -- what to do after a missed called shot. To call that a hodgepodge is a gross exaggeration.

When I was asking you why 3 different states were playing by 3 different sets of rules, I was actually calling that situation out. When I wrote that, I didn't believe it, but I offered you the opportunity to explain that one. You didn't. Exaggeration, to me, doesn't help drive a point. It only muddies the issue (which, to be fair, if that's what you're trying to do, hats off to you).

Now, a good question to ask is why Shane/Alex chose to play by TE rules? Honestly, I have no idea. It would be interesting to hear this, and if JCIN can query these guys, I know a lot of readers who would love to know.

-Sean
 
It's funny, because from my side, I think you're missing the point. There's not a "hodgepodge" of different variations. There are only two rulesets -- the WPA rules, and those tours that implement one extra rule (on top of the WPA rules, as a base) to deal with what to do after a missed called shot. That's the only discrepancy between the two rulesets -- what to do after a missed called shot. To call that a hodgepodge is a gross exaggeration.

When I was asking you why 3 different states were playing by 3 different sets of rules, I was actually calling that situation out. When I wrote that, I didn't believe it, but I offered you the opportunity to explain that one. You didn't. Exaggeration, to me, doesn't help drive a point. It only muddies the issue (which, to be fair, if that's what you're trying to do, hats off to you).

Now, a good question to ask is why Shane/Alex chose to play by TE rules? Honestly, I have no idea. It would be interesting to hear this, and if JCIN can query these guys, I know a lot of readers who would love to know.

-Sean

I already asked that question. And Jay already answered.
jay helfert said:
They BOTH agreed to these rules. What they wanted was the ability to play a two way shot, something that is lacking in the current Ten Ball rules.

It seems that two of the best players in the world decided to make up their own rules.
 
Originally Posted by Drew
I agree!! It should be a different game. But by WPA rules, it's the EXACT SAME GAME!! You just got rid of balls going into wrong pockets. According to gromulan, slopped balls decide 2% of the games. But bullsh1t safeties decide games all the time. Wasn't 10-ball supposed to fix the luck? Isn't that why everyone was b1tching about 9ball? So they invented a new game...that's exactly the same as the old one...


This is an over-exaggeration Drew. If you look at the stats from the TAR21 match that gromulan cited, in addition to the 2% slopped balls stat there is this one:

Missed Ball / Luck Safe Win: Shane 0, Alex 0.

Here's a link to the stats:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=246968&highlight=stats
 
I already asked that question. And Jay already answered.

No, he didn't answer the question. All he said was that both Shane and Alex agreed to it. It didn't explain WHY. I do know that Shane prefers to play by call-shot rules. And I suspect Alex asked Shane to play by TE rules, because he (Alex) *knows* Shane mostly plays by call-shot rules. But that's all conjecture, until one of the players explains why.

It seems that two of the best players in the world decided to make up their own rules.

And, like I said, that was a challenge/gambling match. In challenge/gambling matches, "matching up" is the name of the gamble. World-standardized rules go flying right out the window when we're talking about challenge/gambling matches, precisely because it's just that -- a gambling match.

I seem to recall one infamous gambling match where Corey Deuel and his opponent "agreed" that Corey was to use the mechanical bridge on every shot he takes. Should we take that as being representative of the "rules of the game"? Recently, Shane and Earl "agreed" to play on a gaff converted 10-foot snooker table. Should we take that as being representative of the "rules of the game"?

Gambling match = very, very special non-standard circumstances.

-Sean
 
When I was asking you why 3 different states were playing by 3 different sets of rules, I was actually calling that situation out. When I wrote that, I didn't believe it, but I offered you the opportunity to explain that one. You didn't. Exaggeration, to me, doesn't help drive a point. It only muddies the issue (which, to be fair, if that's what you're trying to do, hats off to you).

You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. I'm not sure how they play in Arizona...I assume it's WPA.

Here in Colorado, we mostly play 10ball TE. If you want to play WPA, you'll have to ask and probably explain the rules too. Very few of us are familiar with the rules.

In central Nebraska (haven't been to Omaha yet), they play called pocket 9ball AND 10ball with no option. For all practical purposes, this is the same as TE and WPA because balls are rarely slopped in. The differences in rules might determine 2% of the games.

Finally, you've just explained the Predator Tour rules...which is a totally different game.

4 sets of rules for the same game.
 
... 4 sets of rules for the same game.

... and TE, except 10-on-the-break in either foot-rail pocket gets spotted;

... and TE, except 10-on-the-break in any pocket ahead of the head string gets spotted;

... and TE, except 10-on-the-break in any pocket gets spotted;

... and ...
 
You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. I'm not sure how they play in Arizona...I assume it's WPA.

Here in Colorado, we mostly play 10ball TE. If you want to play WPA, you'll have to ask and probably explain the rules too. Very few of us are familiar with the rules.

In central Nebraska (haven't been to Omaha yet), they play called pocket 9ball AND 10ball with no option. For all practical purposes, this is the same as TE and WPA because balls are rarely slopped in. The differences in rules might determine 2% of the games.

Finally, you've just explained the Predator Tour rules...which is a totally different game.

4 sets of rules for the same game.

Drew:

Not to be nit-picky, but in the spirit of trying to correct the exaggerations as they fly fast and furious from you, I count only three scenarios above: WPA (which you presume Arizona uses, and you just mentioned Central Nebraska uses), TE (Colorado), and the Predator Tour rules. Two of those rulesets are very closely related (WPA and Predator Tour); the third one -- Colorado -- is out in BFE.

Now you have to ask yourself *why* this condition exists? Seems to me that Colorado is playing 10-ball according to "you'll pry my TE rules from my cold, dead fingers" rules. The WPA rules have been printed, published, and publicized for a long, long time. Did Colorado not get the memo?

-Sean
 
... and TE, except 10-on-the-break in either foot-rail pocket gets spotted;

... and TE, except 10-on-the-break in any pocket ahead of the head string gets spotted;

... and TE, except 10-on-the-break in any pocket gets spotted;

... and ...

...And notice the common thread tying all those bastardized rulesets together... TE.

Could it be that, in these bastardized rules of playing 10-ball in a non-call-shot manner, that we're finally seeing why the game of 9-ball was so grossly infected with problems, and had to be replaced with a new game?

But lo and behold, leave it to the "you'll pry my TE rules from my cold, dead fingers" crew to illustrate how to end-run world-standard rules, and mess up a good game.

Exhibit A, my friends.

-Sean
 
Yeah, I saw it but the whole damn thread has gotten pretty confusing for us old folks:rolleyes:

Sorry about that, bud. That was just some of us dispelling some of the "deliberate confusion" about the proper ruleset for 10-ball, as well as fire-extinguishing some of the exaggerations as they occurred. I'm guilty as charged. :o

-Sean
 
srry if you guys have discussed this many times before but just wanted to give my opinion on it.

The game should be played no call shot and the 10 counts on the break. If someone is hooked and makes a solid hit on the ball sometimes good things will happen and the ball will find a hole and you get out. It's the same for both players. Why make the game less exciting, because somebody might get a roll or two? bfd.

Complaining about luck in pool is like(or worse) than complaining about being unlucky in poker.It's something you should learn asap not to do.


The balls are just gonna roll however they are gonna roll. Nobody gets any more rolls than the next guy. The best players aren't going to be affected by something which imo isn't even real.

I agree 100%. I posted a video and poll recently from a 10 ball tournament stream where one played sharked his opponent by saying he didn't call an obvious shot in a hill/hill match.

I didn't like it when they created the rule and still don't. 10 ball should be played just like Texas express 9 ball.
 
I've said this before, but here it is again.

No, you can't totally eliminate the luck element, but you can try to minimize it. The purpose of a pool competition should be to identify and reward the person (or persons) who is (are) playing the most skillfully during that event. Excitement for the audience should not be the objective in most competitions; in fact, such excitement sometimes results from ignorance. A three-rail kick safety is beautiful and exciting; a 10-on-the-break for a win is disgusting.

People often argue that "luck evens out," or winning on a lucky shot, such as a slop-in, is so rare among top players that we shouldn't worry about it. Well, luck may even out over a lifetime, but it need not do so in any given match or tournament. And it's the rareness of the lucky shot that makes it so much more critical. If it happened every second shot, then both players in a match would benefit and suffer fairly equally. But when it happens only rarely, it becomes enormous and can really mean the difference between winning and losing.

I'm sure that everyone who has played a lot has both won and lost a ton of matches because of purely lucky shots -- 9-ball or 10-ball on the break or slopping in a key ball. A loss that way is agonizing. A win that way is less than fulfilling. It's so easy to eliminate some of the game's pernicious luck.

And with WPA 10-ball rules, they have done so.

My point is, there basically already is no luck in pool (10 ball) played no call shot. Whatever there is left is just the way the balls are gonna roll. People that complain about luck as the reason they lost a match are either. A) Rookies B) players who just can't get over it or C) players who already know better but are upset they lost and are just frustrated.
 
... People that complain about luck as the reason they lost a match are either. A) Rookies B) players who just can't get over it or C) players who already know better but are upset they lost and are just frustrated.

Perhaps so. But there also exists another group of people. These people do not complain about luck as the reason they lost a match. But -- whether they win, lose, or just watch -- they'd like to see the element of luck minimized as a key reason for victory or defeat in pool matches.
 
I agree 100%. I posted a video and poll recently from a 10 ball tournament stream where one played sharked his opponent by saying he didn't call an obvious shot in a hill/hill match.

I didn't like it when they created the rule and still don't. 10 ball should be played just like Texas express 9 ball.

The why play 10 ball in the first place? To make it a better game. TE 9 ball has run it's course. You have to call the shot, it's not like Straight Pool where you can get away with not calling obvious shots.
 
People that complain about luck as the reason they lost a match are either. A) Rookies B) players who just can't get over it or C) players who already know better but are upset they lost and are just frustrated.

Or D) are named Mika Immonen ;):thumbup:!!!

Maniac
 
I agree 100%. I posted a video and poll recently from a 10 ball tournament stream where one played sharked his opponent by saying he didn't call an obvious shot in a hill/hill match.

I didn't like it when they created the rule and still don't. 10 ball should be played just like Texas express 9 ball.


I agree with you. Played with these same rules, Ten Ball (because of that one extra ball) is still a more difficult game.
 
I agree with you. Played with these same rules, Ten Ball (because of that one extra ball) is still a more difficult game.

I don't agree. If the idea was that the break is harder Shane and Alex both disproved it. The stats don't lie.

I understand what everyone "feels" but I think that here you had ten ball on "tight" pockets and yet most of the time the players were playing with 7/8 balls on the table.

I can agree that statistically it is harder simply because there will be more shots that have to be taken. That's a given. Otherwise it looks just like nine ball.
 
I don't agree. If the idea was that the break is harder Shane and Alex both disproved it. The stats don't lie.

I understand what everyone "feels" but I think that here you had ten ball on "tight" pockets and yet most of the time the players were playing with 7/8 balls on the table.

I can agree that statistically it is harder simply because there will be more shots that have to be taken. That's a given. Otherwise it looks just like nine ball.


There are definitely more safety battles on the first ball of each rack in Ten Ball. And when there are all ten balls on the table after an empty break, the run out is often much more difficult than it would be with nine balls. For whatever reason that extra ball can really clutter up the table and very often does. JMHO as always. I'm an observer just like you. I see what I see and you see what you see. ;)
 
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