No ferrule plays the best?

[X Breaker]

I started a thread about how short a ferrule one has seen on a 9 ball cue.

I heard from some people who believed that a shaft without a ferrule would play the best...and from my previous thread, there are indeed cues without any ferrule!

I also read that Bert said ferrule does not affect the hit, but I am confused because I can swear that different ferrule has a different hit. Perhaps I have misunderstood the statement Bert made?

Do you think a shaft without any ferrule would play the best, why?

Richard

 

[bruin70]

the origin of the ferrule was to keep the cue tip from mushrooming.

i think a ferrule does indeed affect the hit. however i believe it affects the FEEL of the hit more than the hit itself. but if you play with a soft tip, that tip will mask the hardness of the ferrule, so it won't be as noticeable as it would if the tip were hard. but all anyone has to do is use the same tip on an ivory or aegis ferrule versus a cerrulite ferrule, and the difference would be extreme.

imo,,,the meucci hit was designed to alleviate the need for a ferrule as much as possible because it's ferrule was extremely soft and very thin with a very thick tenon. in other words, meucci tried to place as much wood as possible in the tip and his soft ferrule was so in order to eliminate any affect on the hit, as say a hard ferrule might have had.

and with this business about deflection, i'm sure there is some effect, but that's something for the pros to test.

if you've ever tried a hard tip with a tenon through, the hit will be very "raw", imo. very bare because there is no cap on the ferrule to cushion the blow.

 

[Gerry]

the origin of the ferrule was to keep the cue tip from mushrooming.

i think a ferrule does indeed affect the hit. however i believe it affects the FEEL of the hit more than the hit itself. but if you play with a soft tip, that tip will mask the hardness of the ferrule, so it won't be as noticeable as it would if the tip were hard. but all anyone has to do is use the same tip on an ivory or aegis ferrule versus a cerrulite ferrule, and the difference would be extreme.

imo,,,the meucci hit was designed to alleviate the need for a ferrule as much as possible because it's ferrule was extremely soft and very thin with a very thick tenon. in other words, meucci tried to place as much wood as possible in the tip and his soft ferrule was so in order to eliminate any affect on the hit, as say a hard ferrule might have had.

and with this business about deflection, i'm sure there is some effect, but that's something for the pros to test.

if you've ever tried a hard tip with a tenon through, the hit will be very "raw", imo. very bare because there is no cap on the ferrule to cushion the blow.

I agree Bruin. Ferrule and tip combos on the same shaft have a huge affect on the hit. I used to swap ferrules and tips on shafts looking for the perfect hit. I usually came back to a capped ivory ferrule with a pad and a LePro to get a little softer hit.

I've never hit with a cue that didn't have a ferrule?


Gerry

 

[Double-Dave]

Well, after I had the ferrule changed on my cheapo jumper it didn't jump if my life depended on it. I then had it sawn of and put a break (not phenolic) tip directly on the wood. Jumps pretty good now, but not as good as my all-in-one ferrule J&J. For a playing cue....would be a pretty darn hard hit I imagine....but I'm no expert just opinions.

 

[TX Poolnut]

the origin of the ferrule was to keep the cue tip from mushrooming.

I have always been under the impression that the purpose of having a ferrule is to keep the shaft from splitting.

 

[Cornerman]

I started a thread about how short a ferrule one has seen on a 9 ball cue.

I heard from some people who believed that a shaft without a ferrule would play the best...and from my previous thread, there are indeed cues without any ferrule!

I also read that Bert said ferrule does not affect the hit, but I am confused because I can swear that different ferrule has a different hit. Perhaps I have misunderstood the statement Bert made?

Do you think a shaft without any ferrule would play the best, why?

Richard

Bert said that the ferrule contributed nothing to the hit. That is, compared to no ferrule. Both Bert and Ray Schuler had talked about using no ferrule, and that tradition only kept them on today's cue sticks.

The ferrule also doesn't contribute to the play, but simply contributes to the sound. If it wasn't for tradition and looks, I'd never have a ferrule put on another cue.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

I have always been under the impression that the purpose of having a ferrule is to keep the shaft from splitting.

You will notice that if you take an ivory ferrule, for example, you need to protect it from splitting by using a fiber pad. Without the pad, a hit on the ivory (say your tip has worn down) will potentially split it. So, the ferrule itself splits, so it can't be protection from splitting. Some of today's plastics are less prone to splitting, but it still happens.

The leather tip is actually what protects the shaft from splitting by taking up the brunt of the collision.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

the origin of the ferrule was to keep the cue tip from mushrooming.
.

That really doesn't make much sense. It doesn't accomplish that today.

The origin of the ferrule was either to protect the shaft from the mace head (lateral impact) or to fix a split mace tail. It had to be. The idea of a ferrule has been around much longer than the idea of a tip.

Fred

 

[TX Poolnut]

This is why I post here almost exclusively. Fred knows what he's talking about. Thanks for the info. Pos rep for you bud.

 

[ShootingArts]

Looks like Fred missed the point

If a ferule splits or is damaged it is the comparatively easily and cheaply replaced ferule that has to be changed, not a shaft.

Supposedly the ferule is there to keep the end of the shaft from making direct contact with anything. A soft leather tip or a chunk coming out of a tip especially when they were of lesser quality than many present day tips left the shaft exposed to possible damage. Makes sense to me and I'll keep my ferule.

I have to admit that short ferules make sense to me and the last ferule I put on my shaft was comparatively short. I may try a 3/8" ferule next. My white ferule gives old eyes something easier to see when aligning my tip on the cue ball too, one reason it won't go completely away.

Hu

This is why I post here almost exclusively. Fred knows what he's talking about. Thanks for the info. Pos rep for you bud.

 

[TheBook]

I think that new laminated shaft that is being advertised on this forum doesn't use a ferrule. I think the shaft's name is Ogee, it is made with the C sections, it is usually advertised in the top banner.

A lot of stuff is mostly tradition of something that once serve a purpose but since people usually are not receptive to change many things may continue even though they are not needed. One example is a spare tire. When the compact spare came out many people would not buy that particular car because it did not have a regular tire as a spare even though most spares would deteriorate before they were used.

 

[Cornerman]

If a ferule splits or is damaged it is the comparatively easily and cheaply replaced ferule that has to be changed, not a shaft.

I missed the point??? The question posed was pretty straight forward.

Fred

 

[TannerPruess]

I think you mean the OB-1 shaft. It does have a ferrule. The ferrule is made from flat laminated “Hard Rock Maple”. The laminations are arranged so that the grain is “clocked” 45 degrees with each layer. The ferrules are made in a block that is then machined into the individual ferrules.

 

[Bob Jewett]

If a ferule splits or is damaged it is the comparatively easily and cheaply replaced ferule that has to be changed, not a shaft.
...

Well, yes, but, I used a single ferrule-less shaft for most of my playing for about 20 years. Many times I was hitting the ball as hard as I could for Artistic Billiard shots. As long as I had a fiber pad on the shaft, there was no problem with splitting.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

One other thing to consider is how the impact is transferred to the shaft. The impression I get is that if you are hitting the ball anywhere off center, you will be contacting a point on the side of the crown of the tip, rather than the center. This impact would then be transferred to one side of the end of the shaft, which seems like it would do weird things as far as compression goes. It seems like the ferrule itself would allow that impact to be distributed relatively evenly over the end of the shaft. In other words, it seems like it would put the entire diameter of the shaft behind every shot. This seems like it would give a considerably more consistent fell, especially when hitting the cueball off center.

Just my impressions,

KMRUNOUT

 

[ShootingArts]

you missed the point of a ferule splitting

I missed the point??? The question posed was pretty straight forward.

Fred

The question posed was straight forward. Your reply read as if it was just as bad to split a ferule as splitting or damaging a shaft. I'd far rather damage a dozen ferules than one favored shaft.

Hu

 

[Cornerman]

Your reply read as if it was just as bad to split a ferule as splitting or damaging a shaft. I'd far rather damage a dozen ferules than one favored shaft.

Hu

I'm sorry you read it that way. I can't see where I said anything close to that.

Fred

 

[ShootingArts]

I think the problem is the typical ball banger

Bob,

I think the problem is the casual or careless player, bangers. If you value your playing shaft highly you are less likely to make the careless hits that damage ferules or shafts. Sounds like your playing skill is a bit above average too.

I think that a shaft with little or no ferule would work as I mentioned earlier. Having something white out there in bad light lets me pinpoint the tip's location a little easier though so I will continue to use a ferule. The next one may be under a half inch however.

Hu

Well, yes, but, I used a single ferrule-less shaft for most of my playing for about 20 years. Many times I was hitting the ball as hard as I could for Artistic Billiard shots. As long as I had a fiber pad on the shaft, there was no problem with splitting.

 

[ShootingArts]

Fred this is what I was looking at

Fred,

The message quoted below is what I was looking at. The last few sentences in the first paragraph in particular. Sorry if I misunderstood. As I see it if a ferule splits instead of a shaft it is a good thing. I used to put together race car steering linkage with the least critical and one of the cheapest parts being the weakest. I see the tip, pad, and ferule much the same way. If splitting a ferule saves me from splitting a shaft that would be taking that force without the ferule being there I far prefer to split ferules.

Too ferules and tips are more interchangeable than shafts that you play with for years. A ferule out of the same material will play pretty much the same. You may have to go through a few tips to get another one you like but that isn't a major issue. Shafts cause me pain if a favorite is damaged. I would rather a butt was destroyed. Shaft feel is the hardest thing to replicate in my opinion.

Hu

You will notice that if you take an ivory ferrule, for example, you need to protect it from splitting by using a fiber pad. Without the pad, a hit on the ivory (say your tip has worn down) will potentially split it. So, the ferrule itself splits, so it can't be protection from splitting. Some of today's plastics are less prone to splitting, but it still happens.

The leather tip is actually what protects the shaft from splitting by taking up the brunt of the collision.

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

As I see it if a ferule splits instead of a shaft it is a good thing.

I don't think any sane person would disagree with that.

I used to put together race car steering linkage with the least critical and one of the cheapest parts being the weakest. I see the tip, pad, and ferule much the same way.

If a ferrule was originally placed on a cue stick to be the weak link and to protect the shaft form splitting, then your reasoning makes sense. But, history suggests it wasn't a shear pin or torque link/clutch idea, as others including you have suggested. That's why I posted what I posted.

Fred