No safeties in nine ball

[sjm]

The best thing jump shots have done is reduce the benefit for poorly played safeties.

That's absurd. Your definition of "poorly played safeties" is a result of the advent of the jump cue.

Before jump cues, and you'll remember if you have been around pro pool long enough. the idea was to cut off as many of the kicks as possible, which required exceptional judgment and superior execution. Getting super-tight to an obstructing object ball was not the definition of defense well played and it was also not always the best percentage.

The advent of the jump cue has necessitated a change in the approach to defense, but it has made the game worse, not better.

 

[David in FL]

That's absurd. Your definition of "poorly played safeties" is a result of the advent of the jump cue.

Before jump cues, and you'll remember if you have been around pro pool long enough. the idea was to cut off as many of the kicks as possible, which required exceptional judgment and superior execution. Getting super-tight to an obstructing object ball was not the definition of defense well played and it was also not always the best percentage.

The advent of the jump cue has necessitated a change the approach to defense, but it has made the game worse, not better.

No longer does simply putting a blocking ball between the cue ball and an object ball qualify as "safe".

Too many people think that it does…

In my experience the people who most dislike jump cues, simply don't jump very well.

People need to play better safeties, and learn to jump. They'll be better pool players as a result.

 

[jasonlaus]

While it would be interesting, there is no market for it. We've seen this over and over. If the money isn't there, it won't survive. It would make for a good exhibition, that's all.

There's no market for the games we play now, God forbid somebody try something different.

No ball in hand but incoming shooter can make them shoot again, maybe a 3 foul if the player doesn't make the ball

 

[sjm]

No longer does simply putting a blocking ball between the cue ball and an object ball qualify as "safe".

Too many people think that it does…

In my experience the people who most dislike jump cues, simply don't jump very well.

People need to play better safeties, and learn to jump. They'll be better pool players as a result.

For the most part, everyone likes the jump cue, as it gives them a crutch when they misplay position and a way of making a good hit on a ball when they'd sometimes be hard pressed to make a successful kick at it.

You are correct in saying that people have to adapt to the jump cue era and learn to play both the jumps and the safeties that the current state of the game requires.

You are wrong in suggesting that the introduction of the jump cue has raised the bar in defense. It hasn't, and while the current generation shoots straighter than the last, nobody under forty-five years can be counted as among the greatest defensive minds ever at 9ball (that's Reyes, Varner, Pagulayan).

 

[David in FL]

For the most part, everyone likes the jump cue, as it gives them a crutch when they misplay position and a way of making a good hit on a ball when they'd sometimes be hard pressed to make a successful kick at it.

You are correct in saying that people have to adapt to the jump cue era and learn to play both the jumps and the safeties that the current state of the game requires.

You are wrong in suggesting that the introduction of the jump cue has raised the bar in defense. It hasn't, and while the current generation shoots straighter than the last, nobody under forty-five years can be counted as among the greatest defensive minds ever at 9ball (that's Reyes, Varner, Pagulayan).

I'm sorry, but I think you're completely wrong in believing that simply because somebody has the ability to jump, that they've somehow lost the ability to kick.

Both are necessary skills. Both have their time and place. Both are simply yet another tool in the box for a good player.

 

[sjm]

I'm sorry, but I think you're completely wrong in believing that simply because somebody has the ability to jump, that they've somehow lost the ability to kick.

Both are necessary skills. Both have their time and place. Both are simply yet another tool in the box for a good player.

Agreed, one cannot generalize. Some have become very proficient at both. Still, I've spent over fifty years in the poolrooms and haven't seen this work ethic very often. Your world in which players master both skills is a make-believe world, and pro pool has many who don't kick well.

Great dividends accrue to the few who are exceptional at both kicking and jumping at pro level, the most obvious being Josh Filler, Albin Ouschan and Dennis Orcullo.

The level of kicking has dropped at pro level relative to twenty years ago, and the reason is simple --- players aren't kicking as often as their counterparts of the last generation. Weak kickers don't pay nearly the price they once paid, because the jump cue bails them out. You suggest that players are making up for weakness in kicking skills in the practice room, but my observation doesn't bear this out.

I think we're much closer than you think in our philosophes, because we both feel that what constitutes ideal training and preparation for competition has changed and the skills needed for success must all be addressed by those who hope to excel at pool. I think we even agree on what those skills are. We only disagree on the extent to which the current generation has adapted to pool's landscape, which looks different than it did twenty years ago.

 

[David in FL]

Agreed, one cannot generalize. Some have become very proficient at both. Still, I've spent over fifty years in the poolrooms and haven't seen this work ethic very often. Your world in which players master both skills is a make-believe world, and pro pool has many who don't kick well.

Great dividends accrue to the few who are exceptional at both kicking and jumping at pro level, the most obvious being Josh Filler, Albin Ouschan and Dennis Orcullo.

The level of kicking has dropped at pro level relative to twenty years ago, and the reason is simple --- players aren't kicking as often as their counterparts of the last generation. Weak kickers don't pay nearly the price they once paid, because the jump cue bails them out. You suggest that players are making up for weakness in kicking skills in the practice room, but my observation doesn't bear this out.

I think we're much closer than you think in our philosophes, because we both feel that what constitutes ideal training and preparation for competition has changed and the skills needed for success must all be addressed by those who hope to excel at pool. I think we even agree on what those skills are. We only disagree on the extent to which the current generation has adapted to pool's landscape, which looks different than it did twenty years ago.

You're probably right in saying that we're probably closer than we think.

There's another reason that people kick less these days though, and it's not necessarily laziness or an inability to kick.

Someone capable with a jump cue can simply hit more varied shots than by kicking. As just a few examples, you can't draw off a kick. You can certainly draw off a jump. It's also easier to swerve the cue ball off a jump, use spin induced throw, or stun.

None of which simply comes with the purchase of a jump cue though. As with any skill, it takes time and effort to learn to play competently.

Some day I'd like to get there.

 

[sjm]

You're probably right in saying that we're probably closer than we think.

There's another reason that people kick less these days though, and it's not necessarily laziness or an inability to kick.

Someone capable with a jump cue can simply hit more varied shots than by kicking. As just a few examples, you can't draw off a kick. You can certainly draw off a jump. It's also easier to swerve the cue ball off a jump, use spin induced throw, or stun.

None of which simply comes with the purchase of a jump cue though. As with any skill, it takes time and effort to learn to play competently.

Some day I'd like to get there.

All good points. Good luck in getting there.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I played in a bar league forever ago for a couple weeks before quitting, where the rule was that you MUST attempt to make a ball on every shot.

This was eight ball.

It was a disaster....

I played three or four years in an eight ball league where there was a "no safeties" rule -- probably worded no more clearly than that. All of the better players were fine with the rule and played to make a ball each shot, although the position choice may have had a safety element. It was only the weak players who would try the rather obvious "oops, I missed" safes. Since there was no handicap, they had no chance to win anyway, so I never saw an "earnest discussion" about those shots.

 

[nataddrho]

I played three or four years in an eight ball league where there was a "no safeties" rule -- probably worded no more clearly than that. All of the better players were fine with the rule and played to make a ball each shot, although the position choice may have had a safety element. It was only the weak players who would try the rather obvious "oops, I missed" safes. Since there was no handicap, they had no chance to win anyway, so I never saw an "earnest discussion" about those shots.

The better players will try to run out regardless.

The problem was that the weaker players argued amongst themselves between deliberate misses or not, when to a stronger player it was clear that the talent wasn’t developed yet to actually perform what was accused.

The weaker players aren’t yet aware of the level of accuracy that can be learned, until a stronger player calls shots and positions beforehand to show them what is routinely possible.

However strong players usually do not hang around this type of league, so there is no guiding light to teach them, and they compare themselves to what they see on the internet with a huge Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[boogieman]

Which is why the incoming shooter should always have the option, thus forcing those great ’kick’ attempts. Nothing more galling in a ‘no safety‘ ring game, than having the player that hooked you successfully kick/hit, slop something in, and then run out.

That would be a much more fun way to play!

 

[Maniac]

The level of kicking has dropped at pro level relative to twenty years ago, and the reason is simple --- players aren't kicking as often as their counterparts of the last generation. Weak kickers don't pay nearly the price they once paid, because the jump cue bails them out.

Never a truer statement spoken on this forum as this last sentence!

 

[book collector]

Only the bangers want no safety games. Any other game/sport out there usually has some safety play or a way to screw with your opponent. If I’m playing 9B and my opponent does a good safety I usually say something of nice shot, executing a good safety is sometimes harder than pocketing a ball and making shape.

Bangers? What do sausages have to do with pool ?
Whatever happens is ok by me , I won't be here that much longer anyway and it barely matters now. But for you young guys , when pickle Ball and cornhole have bigger crowds and prizes and more people playing every day, While pool rooms are closing all over the country and few new ones being opened, it takes a fanatical optimist, to think something doesn't need to change. Maybe my answer isn't the correct one , but staying the same has not been working for 75 years , go ahead and see how that works out for you.

 

[DynoDan]

MLB pitchers could avoid muscle/tendon damage if they started using a T-shirt gun to deliver the ball. Maybe outfielders could catch better with a butterfly net? Likely the basketball hoop should really be bigger, or lower? Etc., etc.
Am I the only one that wants to play the exact same game (or closest to it) as the great players I grew up admiring?

 

[Maniac]

Am I the only one that wants to play the exact same game (or closest to it) as the great players I grew up admiring?

No, I don't believe you are.

 

[fan-tum]

I’m of the tradition that lock up safeties and return kick safes are a thing of beauty in their own right. I enjoy seeing those exchanges more than I enjoy seeing a table run.

True, but I have stopped watching 9 ball, because it's too slow...every other shot is a safe, even hittable ones. Give me 1 shot shootout(I think that's the name)...call safety or you get bih on a miss.

 

[Cuedup]

Agreed, one cannot generalize. Some have become very proficient at both. Still, I've spent over fifty years in the poolrooms and haven't seen this work ethic very often. Your world in which players master both skills is a make-believe world, and pro pool has many who don't kick well.

Great dividends accrue to the few who are exceptional at both kicking and jumping at pro level, the most obvious being Josh Filler, Albin Ouschan and Dennis Orcullo.

The level of kicking has dropped at pro level relative to twenty years ago, and the reason is simple --- players aren't kicking as often as their counterparts of the last generation. Weak kickers don't pay nearly the price they once paid, because the jump cue bails them out. You suggest that players are making up for weakness in kicking skills in the practice room, but my observation doesn't bear this out.

I think we're much closer than you think in our philosophes, because we both feel that what constitutes ideal training and preparation for competition has changed and the skills needed for success must all be addressed by those who hope to excel at pool. I think we even agree on what those skills are. We only disagree on the extent to which the current generation has adapted to pool's landscape, which looks different than it did twenty years ago.

I would offer that the level of kicking expertise started fading when Texas Express became the norm.

 

[sjm]

True, but I have stop watching 9 ball, because it's too slow...every other shot is a safe, even hittable ones. Give me 1 shot shootout(I think that's the name)...call safety or you get bih on a miss.

One shot shootout, the version of nine ball I played when I was young, disappeared for a reason. I never really enjoyed playing it or watching it, and if you ask those who produced pro pool for TV in the early 1980s during the early days of the nine ball era, they'll tell you that it was the one shot shootout version that was too slow to be watchable by viewers.

 

[MattPoland]

True, but I have stop watching 9 ball, because it's too slow...every other shot is a safe, even hittable ones. Give me 1 shot shootout(I think that's the name)...call safety or you get bih on a miss.

Without watching 9-ball there’s nearly nothing left to watch.

 

[Bob Jewett]

MLB pitchers could avoid muscle/tendon damage if they started using a T-shirt gun to deliver the ball. Maybe outfielders could catch better with a butterfly net? ...

I think baseball's future lies here:

Bob <-- who had an unassisted double play in 9th grade.