No way to treat a Customer ..

Poolshootindon said:
Thanks for editing my post..Does look a whole lot better...Damn..there i go again..Don
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You're welcome :)

LOL, you won't catch me bringing up the "..." because I find myself doing the same thing quite often. My punctuation is hideous... I put commas where they shouldn't, don't put them where they should be and the same goes for using 's.
 
Poolshootindon said:
I had my Bender for sale and one of our fellow AZer's came by my house to look at the cue...Bob broke the cue down and rolled the butt of the shaft on my table and you could see the joint collar lift of the table..When the collar lifted so did the pin..Shafts roll dead straight and the cue is dead straight when put together
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I don't quite understand that part. Are you saying you rolled the shaft and it was so warped that the joint collar lifted off the table, yet it rolled straight when screwed on the butt? That seems highly unlikely. Are you sure you rolled the shaft on a flat surface?
 
JoeyInCali said:
Now, if I can fix a cue like this, by adjusting the facing I am certain that anyone can.

But, why would you touch the facing?
The cue is dead straight when joined.

Bender does not sell discounted cues. You think anyone who buys his discounted cues will tell it's a second?
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But, why would you touch the facing?
The cue is dead straight when joined

Joey those who use the Multiple Taper or Parabolic taper for their cues must face the facts. Using this taper can cause problems if not completed perfectly. Now everyone who uses this taper including South West allows some cues that have the problem we are speaking of to be released from their facilities.

I for one have a seen a number of Benders, and South West cues that have a wobble in the front of the cue including the Pin that can be seen with the naked eye when rolled without a shaft on a table. Some were very minor and some had a major wobble, but as if magic when the shaft is attached the wobble disappears. Now are you tell me Joey that this constitutes no problem? Or are they adjusting the facing to correct this when assembled, and is this masking the problem or correcting it?

Bender does not sell discounted cues. You think anyone who buys his discounted cues will tell it's a second?[/QUOTE]

I am aware that Bender sells no cues as seconds, however, obviously seconds are some how escaping from his and other facilities. Yes people do notice, unfortunately the things they notice for the larger part are only minor things. However, when a cue is sold at full price by highly respected Custom Cue Maker and then properly cared for by the owner. The buyer should not have to sell the same cue for a discount because of problems that were there when it was made, IE, Joint wobble, and this happens frequently with cues that use this taper.

In my simple mind, whether the problem is an over sized wrap, Bumper, Finish, or just the type of taper used this all part of producing high dollar cues and if you want to be paid the big bucks you should also insure the finished to perfection. Spinning a cue between centers in a lathe and checking it with a dial indicator is only part of checking for straightness.
However, proper finishing is a completely different subject that can not be seen in the above manner, this takes more exacting standards, and some very infantile ones like rolling a cue on a table.

In the end, all that matters is the satisfaction of the customer, and his ability not to lose because someone never sells seconds!!
 
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Poolshootindon said:
I would like to start this off with saying i do not think all cue builders fall into this category..I know that some of you on here are very protective of cue makers...Now having said that let me explain what has gone on in the past and what is currently happening now...I own a real nice Mike Bender cue...I bought the cue from Erik Lee new in 2005..

You bought the cue new from Eric.


.There was a ticking sound in one of the shafts

The other is if there was something noticeable wrong with the cue when you bought it you should have sent it back to Eric. Why would you buy a cue that was defective?


so i sent the cue to Mr Bender to have him look at the cue..Sent it 2nd day Fedex..The cue sat at the holding center for a week before Mr Bender picked up the cue..I had informed him that the cue was at his holding center and he said he would get the cue..

What you have to understand is that MIke lives in Alaska. I am sure that he does not make a trip to the holding center every day. Doesn't Fed Ex do door delivery?



No word from him for about a week..I call him and he tells me he hasnt had time to look at my cue because his son has a "bear" rug on his table...Finally he emails me and says he can see nothing wrong with the cue..But he did make a comment about the tips on the cue being installed poorly..For those of you who are in the NW you probably know Greg Sowder..Does great work..He did the tip installs for me..Great work..That episode took over a month to complete.

If the cue was new why was the tip put on by Greg Sowder?


The other is you are not the original purchaser. Too many things may have happened since it changed hands a few times. Mike has does not have a lifetime warrantee against abuse or for other peoples work.

.Here is the latest...I had my Bender for sale and one of our fellow AZer's came by my house to look at the cue...Bob broke the cue down and rolled the butt of the shaft on my table and you could see the joint collar lift of the table..When the collar lifted so did the pin..Shafts roll dead straight and the cue is dead straight when put together..So after getting a few ideas of what might be the problem from fellow AZer's (thanks to all who gave me info) i decided to send the cue to Mr Bender for inspection..I shipped the cue to him on Fed 5th,2008 and the cue arrived in Anchorage on the 8th...Mike sent me an email saying he picked up the cue on the Feb 11th...His words were that he would look at the cue this week (week of the 11th).I sent 3 emails asking if he had had a chance to look at the cue..Finally on the 26th i get a return email from Mike..These are his words.."Don, I have checked your cue out and have found no warp at all. The pin runs dead nuts and the shafts are all straight, so is the butt. I faced off the shafts and the butt as the joint faces looked a bit damaged. The cue is ready to return. I would strongly advise using joint protectors to protect the faces. -Mike"..Now i have never had a cue that did not have joint protectors..The damn things were on the cue when he got it..WTF..So after a few emails explaining my side of the story i said just give me a bill for shipping and work and send the cue back to me..Now if you notice he said the cue is ready to return..He said i either need to send him a check or give him my Fedex account #..I gave him the Fedex #...No reply from him...How hard is it to spend 2 minutes and let someone know the situation..Hell, i work for Fedex and i get 30 emails a day and not only to i have time to answer all of them i am able to fill there requests or give them a followup..I will never do business with Mr Bender again...Very poor personal skills...Go ahead and say what you want about this post, but man this is not a way to run a business...I will let you know when and if i get my cue back...Don Iverson :confused:
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I did read your post. If you would read it maybe you will see that all of my questions from the first post are in red and that is where I got my info.

Too many issues that don't add up.


With the next part I am just trying to help you contact him:

I called Mike a year ago to inquire about a cue on the market. He took the time to answer my questions even though he wasn't making anything off of it. I told him that I had sent a Email and he said the best way is by phone since he doesn't look at his Emails that often.
 
I have to agree with manwon, if the cue wobbles apart, it will affect the value.. No matter if this is somehow designed for example, people judge excellence in such a way that a wobble is not understandable or acceptable easpeacialy from a high end cue maker..

I certainly wouldnt want a wobble as a trademark, this to me is the worst case when you recieve a new cue, we all do it, check to see if its straight.. If it isnt, to me it might as well be a cue from walley world because it will change my opinion of the cue, just like that....Who cares what it hits like if it wobbles? I dont......


A straight cue is a standard I think all cue makers should live by....and that is both together and apart.. OFCOURSE this is how I feel...and is my personal opinion..


I have had cues with a slight taper roll, that seemed to straighten out after you play with it for awhile, Im not sure why but I looked at a shaft just this evening I know had a slight taper roll, and I checked it again and it was perfect.. Im not sure If it was the surface I had previously checked the shaft, or what, but I did not see any roll...

SPINDOKTOR
 
Now are you tell me Joey that this constitutes no problem? Or are they adjusting the facing to correct this when assembled, and is this masking the problem or correcting it?
I don't know but to me that seems farfetched.
I would think they face the butt right before boring for the pin and putting the bevel on that hole.
That way the face is perfectly 90 degrees from the pin.
If they faced the cue magically to fix the wobble, then other shafts would not match with it perfectly. I know one lmaker who takes the last pass of his shafts jointed to the butt. A big no-no imo.

I didn't even know Bender has a parabolic taper.
I know SW, Bluegrass, DPK, Ed Young and Brick do.
I believe SW and DPK/EY still use old manual saw taper machines.
I have no idea if that contributes to the wobble or not.
But, their cues are famous for their hit and there is no way they are going to switch to a one-angle butt taper.
 
Mr. Bender is an Artist

I have a Bender cue and will never part with it.

I was surprised he even considered looking at your cue given the backlog he currently has.

Remember, Mr. Bender is an artist first, and in business to sell VERY high end custom cues.

Unlike your corporate training with FedEx where everything is documented and communicated in real time, small business is sometimes different.

I don't rush the work of an artist. It doesn't work. That's why some people are not in the corporate world like you and me.

IMHO, Mr. Bender's reputation will survive a great deal of ranting on AZB.
 
Lets see if i am understanding this correctly

Lisa..Thanks for the reply..Am i supposed to just sit back and wait for Mr Bender to get to it when he feels like it? What if you employer said i will pay you for your work when i get around to it. You would not be a happy person..

Book..You just dont understand..Maybe you dont want to...The cue was NEW..Buying the cue from Erik Lee is no different than buying a car from a dealership..Is it a used car since you did not buy the car directly from the manufactor?

And like i said earlier in my post i wanted a softer tip on the cue and i was hoping to cure two problems with one visit..

Thanks to all of you who have replied..This is also a learning process for me and i am sure that a few of the ideas that have been posted will be good for future dealins... Don Iverson
 
JoeyInCali said:
Now are you tell me Joey that this constitutes no problem? Or are they adjusting the facing to correct this when assembled, and is this masking the problem or correcting it?
I don't know but to me that seems farfetched.
I would think they face the butt right before boring for the pin and putting the bevel on that hole.
That way the face is perfectly 90 degrees from the pin.
If they faced the cue magically to fix the wobble, then other shafts would not match with it perfectly. I know one lmaker who takes the last pass of his shafts jointed to the butt. A big no-no imo.

I didn't even know Bender has a parabolic taper.
I know SW, Bluegrass, DPK, Ed Young and Brick do.
I believe SW and DPK/EY still use old manual saw taper machines.
I have no idea if that contributes to the wobble or not.
But, their cues are famous for their hit and there is no way they are going to switch to a one-angle butt taper.
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Yes Joey, he certainly uses the Parabolic Taper, and as far being able to correct this type of problem, if I can ajust a facing and correct the problem so can a Master Cue Maker. However, I totally agree that the cues butt would not be able to take any shaft without those shafts being adjusted for that butt. However, I have seen a number of cues from makers using this taper who have allowed cues like we are speaking about to make it to the market.

Again this is not a major thing, unless you are the person trying to sell one of these cues. This is my only point, I am not trying to argue, and not trying to attack the reputation of any of these great cue makers. However, I have had customers who had cues like the one's I have described throughout this thread. I have seen how this can cost a customer money at resale, and I do not think it is right.

Now, I do not know if the cue that started this thread has this problem or not. However, the individual stated it has the wobble when rolled not attached to shaft, so I suspect it must.

Have a good day!
 
Steve said:
I have a Bender cue and will never part with it.

I was surprised he even considered looking at your cue given the backlog he currently has.

Remember, Mr. Bender is an artist first, and in business to sell VERY high end custom cues.

Unlike your corporate training with FedEx where everything is documented and communicated in real time, small business is sometimes different.

I don't rush the work of an artist. It doesn't work. That's why some people are not in the corporate world like you and me.

IMHO, Mr. Bender's reputation will survive a great deal of ranting on AZB.
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AMEN
grouphug.gif
 
Mr Bender

I made a call to Mike this morning as a few of you suggested..Hope Mike returns my call soon..

As Book said "to many things don't add up"..

I agree..How did this cue end up this way if he is a master cue builder?

Why would i ship the cue at my expense to Mike if i didn't think there was an issue?

Why not tell me how he tested the cue to determine that it is "dead nuts straight"..


I have rolled the cue on my pool table and dining room table.
No difference...Still lifts in the same spot.

Don
 
Poolshootindon said:
I made a call to Mike this morning as a few of you suggested..Hope Mike returns my call soon..

As Book said "to many things don't add up"..

I agree..How did this cue end up this way if he is a master cue builder?

Why would i ship the cue at my expense to Mike if i didn't think there was an issue?

Why not tell me how he tested the cue to determine that it is "dead nuts straight"..


I have rolled the cue on my pool table and dining room table.
No difference...Still lifts in the same spot.

Don
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Don like I said above, if you place the cue in a lathe and spin it between centers there most likely is no wobble. This is how most cue makers check their work, but with this taper sometimes you can not tell there is a problem.

Good Luck!!
 
straight or not?

A test for folks with dead straight cues. Roll your cue on a flat surface and verify that it shows to roll true on that surface. Then tape a penny to the side of the forearm and see how the cue rolls. I strongly suspect it will hop like a rabbit.

Is the cue still straight or not?

Hu



Poolshootindon said:
I made a call to Mike this morning as a few of you suggested..Hope Mike returns my call soon..

As Book said "to many things don't add up"..

I agree..How did this cue end up this way if he is a master cue builder?

Why would i ship the cue at my expense to Mike if i didn't think there was an issue?

Why not tell me how he tested the cue to determine that it is "dead nuts straight"..


I have rolled the cue on my pool table and dining room table.
No difference...Still lifts in the same spot.

Don
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Bender Cues

First let me say that I am the "Bob" that Don referred to. When I went to Don's house and rolled the Bender butt on his table the joint did lift off the table about an 1/8". At that time I considered it warped. I ended up buying another Bender cue that is perfectly straight when rolled on a pool table and in a lathe (Greg Sowder check it for me). Greg also told me about the Parabolic taper in these type of cues could be misleading and must be turned on a lathe to verify straightness.

I then started researching Bender, SW, and Bluegrass cues regarding the Parabolic tapers on them. I verified that cues built this way need to be turned on a lathe by a experience cuemaker (to make sure the cue is dead center on both ends of the cue). This prevents the misleading "warp" in these cues when its simply the Parabolic taper showing up.

Don, I think your Bender cue is in fact straight and we both at the time thought it was warped simply because we didn't understand the Parabolic taper on these type of cues. Had we both known this we would of taken it to Greg Sowder to check it on a lathe.

I recommend when you get the cue back to take it over to Greg Sowder and have him check it on a lathe. If nothing else it would give you a better piece of mind knowing the cue is infact straight.
 
TWOFORPOOL said:
First let me say that I am the "Bob" that Don referred to. When I went to Don's house and rolled the Bender butt on his table the joint did lift off the table about an 1/8". At that time I considered it warped. I ended up buying another Bender cue that is perfectly straight when rolled on a pool table and in a lathe (Greg Sowder check it for me). Greg also told me about the Parabolic taper in these type of cues could be misleading and must be turned on a lathe to verify straightness.

I then started researching Bender, SW, and Bluegrass cues regarding the Parabolic tapers on them. I verified that cues built this way need to be turned on a lathe by a experience cuemaker (to make sure the cue is dead center on both ends of the cue). This prevents the misleading "warp" in these cues when its simply the Parabolic taper showing up.

Don, I think your Bender cue is in fact straight and we both at the time thought it was warped simply because we didn't understand the Parabolic taper on these type of cues. Had we both known this we would of taken it to Greg Sowder to check it on a lathe.

I recommend when you get the cue back to take it over to Greg Sowder and have him check it on a lathe. If nothing else it would give you a better piece of mind knowing the cue is infact straight.
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Does it have points?
 
ShootingArts said:
A test for folks with dead straight cues. Roll your cue on a flat surface and verify that it shows to roll true on that surface. Then tape a penny to the side of the forearm and see how the cue rolls. I strongly suspect it will hop like a rabbit.

Is the cue still straight or not?

Hu
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Oh someone gets it.:)
 
Poolshootindon said:
I bought the cue "New" from Erik Lee...Not used...New...I had the tips changed by Greg Sowder for 2 reasons
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This is what I dont understand. Why should Bender warranty a cue that was worked on by someone else? If you wanted the tips changed you should have sent it to Bender and asked him to change the tips. Unless this Greg Sowder dude worked for Bender he should have never touched the cue.

I'm fixing to own a Jim Lee Custom. If something happens or I want to change a ferrule/tip, its going to Jim Lee for repair work. Not Joe Blow at my local pool hall.
 
powerlineman80 said:
This is what I dont understand. Why should Bender warranty a cue that was worked on by someone else? If you wanted the tips changed you should have sent it to Bender and asked him to change the tips. Unless this Greg Sowder dude worked for Bender he should have never touched the cue.

I'm fixing to own a Jim Lee Custom. If something happens or I want to change a ferrule/tip, its going to Jim Lee for repair work. Not Joe Blow at my local pool hall.
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Let me help you out here, first of all changing tips will not and should not void any warrenty by any cue maker. This is not considered a repair, it is maintenace, and whether some hack at your local pool hall changes a tip you do it really has nothing to do with this subject.;)

I wish you well with your first Custom, and I hope it is all you could possible want it to be!!!!!!:)
 
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powerlineman80 said:
This is what I dont understand. Why should Bender warranty a cue that was worked on by someone else? If you wanted the tips changed you should have sent it to Bender and asked him to change the tips. Unless this Greg Sowder dude worked for Bender he should have never touched the cue.

I'm fixing to own a Jim Lee Custom. If something happens or I want to change a ferrule/tip, its going to Jim Lee for repair work. Not Joe Blow at my local pool hall.
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Huh?

You think tip work has to be done by the cuemaker? That would be very expensive in some cases not to mention the long wait time due to shipping and if the cuemaker is busy and can't get to it right away. If you don't know of a good repairman in your area than create a thread on here, I am sure someone in your area can do a good job.
 
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