Non forfeit at White Diamonds - Whats up with that!!!

elvicash

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At the White Diamonds tourney this past weekend Jesse B went for $4,000 in the first calcutta, second highest I think. Late in the fist round they are calling Jesse to play and then there is the second call he is on the clock etc and he did not show to play. I was in a match playing and after my match completes they call out Jesse B to play. So I wonder whats up this still has to be a first round match so what gives. I go to the board and ask what is up how is Jess playing now since he was on the clock and Chris said don't be late you will be forfeited.

The answer I got was his opponent did not want the forfeit. That is a bunch of crap in my opinion. He should have been there to play just like everyone else if you are not there then you are forfeited with or without the opponents consent.

I did not follow up on this so I do not know if the buyer was involved or exactly what happened but I do not think a forfeit should be avoidable the rules should be the rules. Do you think a forfeit should have been posted for Jesse?
 
I see no option other than to establish the rules and then steadfastly follow them ~ 100% of the time and without exception. In this case, if everything is as described, then forfeiture is the only proper course of action. Any deviation is less than fair to the other players, player auction participants, etc.

Peace.

~Razor
 
I know time constraints are a constant issue in tournaments, but I like that the opponent has the choice to 'shoot it out' rather than win by technicality. I'm aware it means he's keeping other people waiting by making that choice. But still, it shows balls to play out your match against one of the guys who's apparently favored to win the whole thing.

I mean, we're all pool nuts here. What, you guys are trying to get out of the pool hall and clock in somewhere? :P
 
forfeit

I was involved in a match in Reno a few years back and I waited 45 minutes for my opponent, can't even remember who it was, but I was given a win. I was about to get out of the Elevator and I heard my name being called through the Casino announcements, and was asked if I would return to the Tournament room. I went back over to the tournament desk and they told me that if I wanted, I could accept the win by forfeit, since so much time had expired. The other player said he was in the area in the Tournament room, but never heard them call him, which I know they did at least 3 times, I even waited longer then the 15 minutes, almost 30-45 minutes. I told them if it was ok with the Tourn. Director, I would play the match since the gentleman was at the desk when I got back to the Tournament desk....Well, you can probably guess what happened, I lost the match, and that knocked me 1 win out of the money. I could have taken the win, but my sportsmanship allowed for the match to be played....and I would do the same again. I can understand the Feelings about the forfeit, and I am not going to judge anyone, but rules are rules and they are meant for each and every player in that Tournament. This is just my opinion of an example I had. I did fare well on the other end of the situation one time at Hopkins Expo. I was to play Corey Deuel at 9 PM, and he never got a wake up call. I hung around for a while, then my next match was early next morning, Corey asked me to play it, but I couldn't, since I already won a match in between. Corey did win the Junior division that year, and I think it was a $ 5K Scolarship. JUST MY 2 CENTS
 
CreeDo said:
I know time constraints are a constant issue in tournaments, but I like that the opponent has the choice to 'shoot it out' rather than win by technicality. I'm aware it means he's keeping other people waiting by making that choice. But still, it shows balls to play out your match against one of the guys who's apparently favored to win the whole thing.

I mean, we're all pool nuts here. What, you guys are trying to get out of the pool hall and clock in somewhere? :P
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CreeDo,

I somewhat agree with what you say in principle, especially regarding the opponent having the guts to shoot it out rather than win by technicality.

However, the one thing I think you may be overlooking is the HUGE CALCUTTA $$$. Because of the amount of money on the line, you cannot have any rules deviations, appearances of favoritism, etc. People have been <fill in the blank> for less money...not that anything bad happened in this case (that I am aware of), but it had the impact to change the whole outcome of the event. If as described, must be forfeited.

Peace and best wishes,

~Razor
 
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Forfeit him, and let whoever got him in the calcutta, cry like a sissy, and let them skin their horse alive for not showing up on time.
 
Forfeit

If it is you state, it is a forfeit.
Once a forfeit is called, it is final.

A couple years ago, we had to forfeit Ralf Souquet in the us open 10-ball.
He was in a car accident and be 30-60 minutes late.

We had no choice.

It is also unfair to ask the opposing player. It is not his decision and that player is placed under tremendous pressure to agree to play.

In addition, how do you keep a tournament on schedule when you now have one match an hour late.

Bad decision if the facts are accurate.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI
 
elvicash said:
At the White Diamonds tourney this past weekend Jesse B went for $4,000 in the first calcutta, second highest I think. Late in the fist round they are calling Jesse to play and then there is the second call he is on the clock etc and he did not show to play. I was in a match playing and after my match completes they call out Jesse B to play. So I wonder whats up this still has to be a first round match so what gives. I go to the board and ask what is up how is Jess playing now since he was on the clock and Chris said don't be late you will be forfeited.

The answer I got was his opponent did not want the forfeit. That is a bunch of crap in my opinion. He should have been there to play just like everyone else if you are not there then you are forfeited with or without the opponents consent.

I did not follow up on this so I do not know if the buyer was involved or exactly what happened but I do not think a forfeit should be avoidable the rules should be the rules. Do you think a forfeit should have been posted for Jesse?
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I was there also and remember this situation. The player Jesse Bowman was playing was named Kevin Noel. He is not a friend with Jesse other than knowing who he is but takes pride in playing in the tournament. I heard him tell Ashley not Chris that he will not accept a win like that and resheduled his match. Ashley asked him if he was sure and he said yes. You do not find many people like Kevin Noel who also builds cues on the side called Ross Cues. Going to be a great cue maker and is turning out nice work.

The person who bought Jesse Bowman was Charlie Brown who was not even in the building at this time to know what was going on. I agree if the player was conned not to forfeit then this would be a issue but he chose this on his own because he is a great guy and plays this tournament to play the best players for the challenge. I know Kevin personally and is a real great guy and was giving the option to forfeit him trust me.

Nice meeting you this weekend and know you guys got a bonus from my buddy in Houston who posts on the site (Jollyrodger). Glad yall made it home safe!
 
kill the calcutta

It could be a really bad business move. That tournament is all about the calcutta. If I purchased a player especially for that much money and they were forfeited without trying everything to reach the player. Wrong or right I would not participate again. I also think the player should not be allowed to play again without paying back the calcutta buyer,
 
Mark Griffin said:
It is also unfair to ask the opposing player. It is not his decision and that player is placed under tremendous pressure to agree to play.
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You're absolutely right, Mark. Any TD that asks the forfeit winner to play the forfeit loser after the forfeit is official is unable to make a "tough" decision and stand by it. They are afraid of upsetting the violating player and are begging the non-violating player to help fix the "problem" for him.

The entire situation is due to *one guy* not showing up for his match on time. I don't care what the reason, if you can't show up on time to your match, you don't deserve to move on. If you don't show up for work on time you get fired. How is this different?!?

Tournament Directors: If you're going to follow all the rules, and call all the fouls, then grow a backbone and tell the late player that he loses. Period. His fault. No objections, no appeals.
 
jschelin99 said:
You're absolutely right, Mark. Any TD that asks the forfeit winner to play the forfeit loser after the forfeit is official is unable to make a "tough" decision and stand by it. They are afraid of upsetting the violating player and are begging the non-violating player to help fix the "problem" for him.

The entire situation is due to *one guy* not showing up for his match on time. I don't care what the reason, if you can't show up on time to your match, you don't deserve to move on. If you don't show up for work on time you get fired. How is this different?!?

Tournament Directors: If you're going to follow all the rules, and call all the fouls, then grow a backbone and tell the late player that he loses. Period. His fault. No objections, no appeals.
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Jeff,

Agree with both you and Mark G. on this subject.

Many years ago during a Joss 9 Ball event at the Rhode Island Billiard Club, my very well known opponent was over an hour late for our match. At the time, Mr Zuglan had a "paid" tournament director. The director kept jumping over my match because my opponent wasn't present. My opponent went out to dinner with two other well known players (who also missed their matches). All three were allowed to continue playing because of who they were. Really, really pissed me off.

Years later, Mr. Zuglan personally called a forfeit for a match at the Turning Stone Classic. Seems the player was distracted doing something else and forgot. As the player was also a room owner with an event on the Joss schedule, Mr Zuglan was now short one event. Mike paid the price but did what was right, not convenient.

Is that what you call "growing a backbone"?

Lyn
 
Mark is absolutely right in all respects. Should be a forfeit straight up. The calcutta's got jack to do with it. People that risk their money in calcuttas should calculate the risks of dependable players vs ones that are not so much. And sometimes things just happen...
 
Forfeits and Calcutta

cueaddicts said:
Mark is absolutely right in all respects. Should be a forfeit straight up. The calcutta's got jack to do with it. People that risk their money in calcuttas should calculate the risks of dependable players vs ones that are not so much. And sometimes things just happen...
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We seldom do events with calcuttas. However, my policy on forfeits that could have any affect on the Calcutta was pretty straight forward: the player must reimburse the Calcutta owner the amount lost. Often there are multiple owners so confusion can happen, but there has to be a penalty to avoid manipulations or 'dumping an owner'.

There is no real connection to the event and the Calcutta but there has to some thought given to protect all parties and to be fair. Remember, the player was late to forfeit - it is their responsibility to show up.

Mark Griffin
 
While I completely understand an opponent wanting to wait for a top player to return to the tournament area, even past the allotted time for various reasons, it just isn't fair.

Simply answered based upon these conditions, YES, a forfeiture should have been Jesse's fate.

The rules should be the same for all players, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

The other thing that I REALLY can't stand is when a tournament director will ask the player, "Well, so-and-so isn't here. What do you want to do? :confused:

The tournament director should never leave it up to either of the players to change the rules of the event.:mad:
 
cardiac kid said:
Is that what you call "growing a backbone"?
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The pool room owner is late to his match, gets forfeited due to *his own actions*, and then cancels the future event at his place because his being forfeited was "unfair"?!? I thought only little kids "took their ball and went home". :)

It's too bad Mike was punished by losing an event, but yes, that's a helluva backbone! Sometimes the "right" thing isn't popular.
 
Mark Griffin said:
We seldom do events with calcuttas. However, my policy on forfeits that could have any affect on the Calcutta was pretty straight forward: the player must reimburse the Calcutta owner the amount lost. Often there are multiple owners so confusion can happen, but there has to be a penalty to avoid manipulations or 'dumping an owner'.

There is no real connection to the event and the Calcutta but there has to some thought given to protect all parties and to be fair. Remember, the player was late to forfeit - it is their responsibility to show up.

Mark Griffin
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I agree in principle! But, how many pro pool players have an extra 4,000 laying around?

He went for 4000!

Jeanette Lee went in a Calcutta and asked to buy half late! Got mad when owner refused and forfeited or dumped the following match. Can't remember the whole story but a forum search will take you to the story.

Calcutta is fun but needs more safety valves and rules. Like one issuing auto refund if a bought player is forfeited!

Never heard of forfeit during a match but once the game starts no refund! Also, no refund for losers side forfeits. Guy loses first round and owner tells player take a hike for refund. No sir!

Player must give half to Calcutta management prior to starting! The buyers have no contact with player's and get the players half if any from management at start!

Kd

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 
Mark Griffin said:
We seldom do events with calcuttas. However, my policy on forfeits that could have any affect on the Calcutta was pretty straight forward: the player must reimburse the Calcutta owner the amount lost. Often there are multiple owners so confusion can happen, but there has to be a penalty to avoid manipulations or 'dumping an owner'.

There is no real connection to the event and the Calcutta but there has to some thought given to protect all parties and to be fair. Remember, the player was late to forfeit - it is their responsibility to show up.

Mark Griffin
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You are talking about pool players right? Mark I know you mean well and are an OG in the game of running tournaments but... What world are you living in where you think a pool player has $4000 laying around to pay this? Or think that they would pay if they had it. That is insane!

In a horse race, you bet on a horse. If the horse doesn't perform for whatever reason you don't get your money back from the horse.


A calcutta is a terrible idea in general because you are bidding on pool players. Think about it, pool players are the least reliable people on earth. Of all the sports/competitions I have ever played, pool players are the absolute worst at being responsible. Betting on them is your choice and if they don't show or don't win, that's a chance you took. Period
 
DrOnePocket said:
You are talking about pool players right? Mark I know you mean well and are an OG in the game of running tournaments but... What world are you living in where you think a pool player has $4000 laying around to pay this? Or think that they would pay if they had it. That is insane!

In a horse race, you bet on a horse. If the horse doesn't perform for whatever reason you don't get your money back from the horse.


A calcutta is a terrible idea in general because you are bidding on pool players. Think about it, pool players are the least reliable people on earth. Of all the sports/competitions I have ever played, pool players are the absolute worst at being responsible. Betting on them is your choice and if they don't show or don't win, that's a chance you took. Period
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Insane, really? I think making this piece of crap player responsible for the full amount is the only thing to do. I don't care if they have money or not. If someone pays big money, these people are the ones keeping rooms open, then you damn well better show or refund the cash. Put a life ban on the player until a full refund is made.

Didn't a pro player, playing a viking tour event, do this a few years ago? The TD made him refund the buyers money. I can't remember the details but it was something like: player was bought for $800. Player hooked up with someone that had lots of money and golf instead of play his match.
 
What is WDs policy on a player who is vacated from a tournament for one reason or another. I know some TDs will reimburse the buyer in instances like that. Calcuttas have pros and cons and a lot of people have different views on them. When a player goes for $4K and is put out of the tournament not due to play, if the buyer was reimbursed the total pot would obviously take a sizable hit...but is it fair for them to take the heat?? Participating in a players auction is a gamble and in tournaments like that it can be a BIG one. Its really no different than getting odds and betting on a boxer. If you place a bet on a fight in Vegas and your guy doesnt show up do you get your money back?

Also, the part about asking the awaiting player if they still want to play the match when their opponent didnt show up is no good. No one should be put under the gun like that, except the TD. Maybe Jay will chime in here on this one. All that does it create controversy. If player A shows up late after being called and put on the clock which has run out, why should player B decide his fate? Player B says sure lets play and loses, player B says no bet you should have been here and player A gets pissed....its a lose lose situation.
 
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