Non-Traditional Banking

[rcarson]

Exactly, this is someone trying to find out how to "learn" pool without practice. This is a bs way of trying to play, not insulting anyone or anything, but this stuff does not work.

Someone needs to stop feeding garbage into people's heads about pool. I overhear "instructors" all the time telling their wide-eyed pupils all the secrets of pool and most of it is absolute bs. It's not true.

I read all the posts here at AZ and see how people get roped into all these aiming techniques and banking systems and such and laugh at some of the ignorance involved. Not all of it is not true, as there is some fact in a lot of what is said, but not near the extent that it normally is carried out to.

I think people want to learn so bad, or at least play better, they will listen to anyone and anything, no matter how foolish it would sound if they were to actually take the time to evaluate it themselves instead of following the herd.

The only problem I have with your comments in this thread, aside from your bashing and bollucking, is your insistance that there are no fundamental patterns in pool. Systems take patterns from common shots and put them into a compilation. These patterns can be adjusted in specific ways to make a more wide range of shots. For instance, A cross side bank that is in a center to center line between a corner pocket and the opposite side pocket can be made consistently with a half tip top and a half ball hit at firm speed. You can then adjust this in a consistent manner depending how far off line your cb and object ball are, or the conditions your are playing in. Also kicking a ball where the the ball is in a corner pocket and the cb is in the same side pocket. We know that if we hit the middle diamond on the opposite side rail the cue ball will go into the corner pocket (this also depends on the speed of the table). Once you figure the speed out you can kick at the ball in the corner using any portion of that that side rail using different types of spin, top and bottom. These are simple examples but these patterns form a base for us to learn from. You will never get away with not having the experience or the feel of pool, but using these systems can assist in learning how english, squirt, table condition, humidity and all the variables in pool work with or against you. They make the process of understanding this easier and more consistent.

 

[mikepage]

[...] and realized long ago that there is not a lot of money in pool, and I prefer a nice steady paycheck.

Ahah! So you DO know the secret!

 

[Wybrook]

Systems take patterns from common shots and put them into a compilation. These patterns can be adjusted in specific ways to make a more wide range of shots. For instance, A cross side bank that is in a center to center line between a corner pocket and the opposite side pocket can be made consistently with a half tip top and a half ball hit at firm speed. You can then adjust this in a consistent manner depending how far off line your cb and object ball are, or the conditions your are playing in. Also kicking a ball where the the ball is in a corner pocket and the cb is in the same side pocket. We know that if we hit the middle diamond on the opposite side rail the cue ball will go into the corner pocket (this also depends on the speed of the table). Once you figure the speed out you can kick at the ball in the corner using any portion of that that side rail using different types of spin, top and bottom. These are simple examples but these patterns form a base for us to learn from. You will never get away with not having the experience or the feel of pool, but using these systems can assist in learning how english, squirt, table condition, humidity and all the variables in pool work with or against you. They make the process of understanding this easier and more consistent.

I am not bashing anyone, just stating my opinion and trying to explain why systems are no good. Really, you said it yourself, note the bold words in your comments. Everything you say takes away from a "system's" effectiveness. It too funny to see people agrue, then not show anything and just help the opposing view. I think you used the words "adjust", "consistent", "depends", "figure" just perfectly. By the time you try and figure out and adjust and sort of guess and manipulate your system during a match, you will have lost.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I realize the extent of my interest in them - and the nature of it.



I try to find out what really works in a system, and then I give the system credit for that. Naturally, all the noise and heat arises around the limitations I point out, but that's an essential part of finding out what does work, and if you look back carefully you'll find that I've given systems more credit than just about anybody for their real value.

I'm apparently one of very few on here who's able or willing to do this, and I'm not so concerned with being universally popular here that I mind throwing myself on the same grenade over and over again. What have you done for us lately?

pj
chgo

Oh...I see its all about you huh...???.. (JK)...the truthful answer to that question is....probably not much...

Actually I wasn't really bashing you...It kind of was a half hearted attempt at a bit of levety....but there is a bit of truth to it...you are kind of like a software de-bugger...you often try and break the application...but hey...someones got to do it...

The reality is you probably do know more about all the different systems than most because you do study them all in a way...Moreso than most...I suspect that most people find one they like and stop looking for more...

Your kind of like one of those "non religious" people that have more knowledge of various religions (because they study them all) and often times know more about a religion than the hard core believer/follower knows...

 

[jay helfert]

Just thought I'd piss on a hornet's nest on here because I miss the controversy. Let me feel your hate, as the Emperor would say. Love you guys...even the tin foil guy.

http://www.poolvids.com/view/51/nontraditional-banking-continued/

I wish Freddy, Danny, Jay and others would chime in too.

After watching that video, I have only one thing to say to you David. I AIN'T PLAYING ANY BANKS WITH YOU!

You made one bank that was so fast I couldn't follow it on the screen. I kept rewinding it to watch, with no luck. After you made like ten in a row, you felt guilty so you dogged one. :smile:

I'm kind of an "old school" banker, hit 'em hard and straight! Like Milo said in her post, banking balls is a "feel" thing. I know when I'm in stroke, I can look at the bank and know exactly how I want to hit it. How hard, what angle and what english to use. I basically know if I need to shorten it up or lengthen it out. It's like your mind makes an instantaneous computation. Does that make sense?

Really, the only thing I look at is whether the ball will go or not. The rest I already know (or at least think I do). I know if I hit it good, it's going in. And I know if I hit it good the moment the cue ball contacts the object ball. As soon as I hit it, I KNOW if I made it or not. I don't even have to watch the rest of the shot.

My favorite line when I'm playing Tang is to say "That's gonna be close", the moment I hit the ball. He KNOWS I made it!

 

[SpiderWebComm]

After watching that video, I have only one thing to say to you David. I AIN'T PLAYING ANY BANKS WITH YOU!

You made one bank that was so fast I couldn't follow it on the screen. I kept rewinding it to watch, with no luck. After you made like ten in a row, you felt guilty so you dogged one. :smile:

I'm kind of an "old school" banker, hit 'em hard and straight! Like Milo said in her post, banking balls is a "feel" thing. I know when I'm in stroke, I can look at the bank and know exactly how I want to hit it. How hard, what angle and what english to use. I basically know if I need to shorten it up or lengthen it out. It's like your mind makes an instantaneous computation. Does that make sense?

Really, the only thing I look at is whether the ball will go or not. The rest I already know (or at least think I do). I know if I hit it good, it's going in. And I know if I hit it good the moment the cue ball contacts the object ball. As soon as I hit it, I KNOW if I made it or not. I don't even have to watch the rest of the shot.

My favorite line when I'm playing Tang is to say "That's gonna be close", the moment I hit the ball. He KNOWS I made it!

Thanks for the chime-in. I can't wait to see you again in Vegas or DCC and ask you some stuff and pick your brain on this. I'm very sure I'm not feel-banking. No system is 100%... but this is a SUPER foundation to start from. It puts you at the tits or within every time on normal felt (not brand new).

 

[androd]

thanks for the video. verrry interrresting ! i'll try it out tomorrow and let you know in the evening.

i tried the full ball system pivoting my hip as you said. pocket speed as i play mostly one pocket. it worked very well for me, i'm impressed. i seem to like the pivot more than BHE which i normally use. same basics 1tip per diamond on short rails 1/2 tip on long rails . was always pretty good on the trick banks in one pocket but simple cross corners gave me a lot of trouble, BHE helped a lot,this will help more.
THANKS A LOT DAVE.
Rodney Stephens.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

i tried the full ball system pivoting my hip as you said. pocket speed as i play mostly one pocket. it worked very well for me, i'm impressed. i seem to like the pivot more than BHE which i normally use. same basics 1tip per diamond on short rails 1/2 tip on long rails . was always pretty good on the trick banks in one pocket but simple cross corners gave me a lot of trouble, BHE helped a lot,this will help more.
THANKS A LOT DAVE.
Rodney Stephens.

You're welcome. Glad I could help. More to come.

 

[1 Pocket Ghost]

I'm not sure if you get what i am saying... If you have to adjust a "system", how can you justify using it? A true system would need no adjustments and it would work under any circumstance, therefore, you are really doing most of the calculations in your head. Here is where "feel" comes into play.

I am a solid banker and I don't use systems. I have even played against other real good players and never seen any "system use" just because they played well. I think that coming up with systems is a way to sell something to people who have no clue, or think they can get around practicing. I understand that if pool were played in some sort of vacuum in a lab somewhere, there may be something close, but even then, there would not be a true system. There can't be. You can never duplicate a shot in pool. Yes, a simple stop shot, but I would bet that if you really measured everything, any two shots would be different in some aspect.

I just believe that all systems should be taken with a grain of salt. They are what they are (and aren't) and should never be relied upon.

Well, I never get involved in methodology threads, but for once, (with all due respect to other posters) I'm going to throw in my 2 cents, and my 2 cents goes in with Wybrook - about 90% anyway.


I've been playing banks, one pocket and 3c billiards for 35 years, and at a fairly high level. In playing pool/banks I don't use a system - I think that learning to play by feel, and having 'playing by feel' become a zen-like, mind/muscle memory state of being, is the best, most effective way to 'play' pool. Like Wybrook, I don't think systems are the way to go - and I feel this way irregardless of whether the system can be made to work or not - with the exception of mathematical/diamond systems - to be used for kicking only. Also, over the years I have asked several very strong players/bankers about this, and they all said they play by feel.


All of that said, in playing 3c billiards however, I do use systems (diamond systems) for some shots, and it would take me a while to explain the difference.

 

[androd]

Well, I never get involved in methodology threads, but for once, (with all due respect to other posters) I'm going to throw in my 2 cents, and my 2 cents goes in with Wybrook - about 90% anyway.


I've been playing banks, one pocket and 3c billiards for 35 years, and at a fairly high level. In playing pool/banks I don't use a system - I think that learning to play by feel, and having 'playing by feel' become a zen-like, mind/muscle memory state of being, is the best, most effective way to 'play' pool. Like Wybrook, I don't think systems are the way to go - and I feel this way irregardless of whether the system can be made to work or not - with the exception of mathematical/diamond systems - to be used for kicking only. Also, over the years I have asked several very strong players/bankers about this, and they all said they play by feel.


All of that said, in playing 3c billiards however, I do use systems (diamond systems) for some shots, and it would take me a while to explain the difference.

it's probably great to be able to feel how to bank a ball. I've played more pool than most of you guys, istill need a target for most banks. you guys are all naturals. anywho why don't you just feel your kicks also?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Hey... if you guys were born with the God-given gift to feel stuff in, perfect. Most people were never born with natural talent. I do know this, and if I could find a way to bet it.... I would. You give Ron Vitello or Stan Shuffet 3 days with 10 random league players to show them this stuff in more detail and you (the non-system-believers) wanna take 10 random people and then see who improves the most.... I'd bet my entire life savings our group would improve and order of MAGNITUDE better than the feel group.

I'm not talking 10 years.... I'm talking days. MAN, I wish I could pull you guys all-in. It's awesome to be born with talent and feel....it's sad to have to develop that feel over 25 years when you can develop it in less than 1 year. My game-- run out ability and banking ability was MULTIPLE balls less 1 year ago... and I've been playing for over 15 years. In less than a year, using exactly this info, my ball pocketing has literally shot to Jupiter. If I learned this stuff 10 years ago, who knows where I'd be.

If someone believes there's no such thing as aiming systems or banking systems... NO MATTER what you think your speed is.... you're completely ignorant....and naive, there's nothing I or anyone can do to enlighten you.

 

[Nick B]

Dave,
Easy with the ignorant stuff. Nobody insulted you. Most in fact by my count like "the method". Some of us see the limitations and simply need some clarity on what your pivot method is about.

I disagree with some of the stuff you wrote but it doesn't make me ignorant. You mentioned that if you hit them slowly the pivot point would not change. For me this is not possible.

I think your passion for this topic has clouded your judgment on this.

Nick

Hey... if you guys were born with the God-given gift to feel stuff in, perfect. Most people were never born with natural talent. I do know this, and if I could find a way to bet it.... I would. You give Ron Vitello or Stan Shuffet 3 days with 10 random league players to show them this stuff in more detail and you (the non-system-believers) wanna take 10 random people and then see who improves the most.... I'd bet my entire life savings our group would improve and order of MAGNITUDE better than the feel group.

I'm not talking 10 years.... I'm talking days. MAN, I wish I could pull you guys all-in. It's awesome to be born with talent and feel....it's sad to have to develop that feel over 25 years when you can develop it in less than 1 year. My game-- run out ability and banking ability was MULTIPLE balls less 1 year ago... and I've been playing for over 15 years. In less than a year, using exactly this info, my ball pocketing has literally shot to Jupiter. If I learned this stuff 10 years ago, who knows where I'd be.

If someone believes there's no such thing as aiming systems or banking systems... NO MATTER what you think your speed is.... you're completely ignorant....and naive, there's nothing I or anyone can do to enlighten you.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave,
Easy with the ignorant stuff. Nobody insulted you. Most in fact by my count like "the method". Some of us see the limitations and simply need some clarity on what your pivot method is about.

I disagree with some of the stuff you wrote but it doesn't make me ignorant. You mentioned that if you hit them slowly the pivot point would not change. For me this is not possible.

I think your passion for this topic has clouded your judgment on this.

Nick

I didn't mean to have that tone in the email -- the all-in comment was totally in jest. You're right about the speed vs pivot. I really wasn't paying attention when I wrote that. I bank at the exact same speed 90% of the time so it's always the same for me.

I stand by my ignorant comment 100%. Such information is out there...and works systematically. If you don't know it, regardless of speed... you're not in the know...i.e. ignorant. Poor choice of words in relation to tone--- not trying to be harsh-- i'm not trying to come across mean or anything. Heck, that other guy can prob spot me tons. Doesn't make him not ignorant on this info. Doesn't matter how many decades you play. You're either knowledgeable on this or you're not.

 

[rkim99]

Dave;

Hey, it's Rich again. Just wanted to let you know I tried your system tonight and, well . . . it worked.

I was just shooting around with some buddies of mine for giggles. We've all been playing each other for over 5 years now and everyone knows I hate to bank. Surprise. The very first game my buddy Ern leaves me a bank.

Using your system (as I understand it) I first aimed center to center and saw that the bank would be wide by at least a diamond. I 'pivoted' to the inside a full tip and saw that was too much, brought it back to a half. That looked pretty close so I took a couple strokes and pulled the trigger. Since I had your video lesson in mind I stroked about the same speed - about medium firm.

Nothing but the back of the pocket.

Long story short, my other two buddies tried leaving me banks as well. I pocketed both and ran out.

Even the bank I eventually missed about the fifth game was damn close - right on the nip of the pocket where it slid down the rail and dropped in the corner.

End of the night totals:

Banks attempted: 11
Banks pocketed: 8 (of the 3 missed, 1 was a reverse, another was cross)

So first I just wanted to thank you for that video lesson.

Of course, these were all short banks and no cross or reverse banks, but since all of these shots give me a bit of trouble, feeling a little more confident about the short ones is a nice thing.

Quick couple questions: is speed/english a factor at all with this? I shot all my banks tonight about medium/center but there are situations where I might want to slow down/make a different shape. Also I was 'pivotting' the cue from my bridge hand then leaning my body over to maintain proper stroke. Is that correct or did I pivot incorrectly?

Thanks again, and looking forward to your video about crosses and reverses.

Rich

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Hey... if you guys were born with the God-given gift to feel stuff in, perfect. Most people were never born with natural talent. I do know this, and if I could find a way to bet it.... I would.

The main thing you demonstrate with this system is that you have an abundance of "feel". This system doesn't work by giving you three specific shots that work for everything; it works by categorizing your shots into three groups (or "ranges") that make it easier for you to "feel" the specific shot needed in each case. It narrows the selection down to a more manageable range of possibilities from which to choose.

The very first step in the system is to "feel" what category of shot you're faced with. If it's a "1/2 tip" shot, you know that from experience - by feel. But you haven't yet identified the exact shot; you've determined the category or range of shots it belongs to (the range between "no tip" and "1 tip").

Only a small minority of actual shots can be made using only the three specific cut angles defined by the system, so all the rest (the great majority of actual shots) are made by finding the specific aim within the range you've chosen that exactly fits the shot you have. You know it's "somewhere around 1/2 tip", and you decide exactly where by feel.

[...]

If someone believes there's no such thing as aiming systems or banking systems... NO MATTER what you think your speed is.... you're completely ignorant....and naive, there's nothing I or anyone can do to enlighten you.

This is a relatively unexplored area in pool - I think everybody is pretty ignorant and naive about it. Those who are most certain they know "the way" are the most ignorant and naive (and obnoxious).

But I think there are some things we do know:

- "Feel" is another word for "estimating from experience"

- Everybody uses feel/estimation on every shot, consciously or unconsciously

- Systems narrow the range of estimation; they don't eliminate it

- Estimation works best when you have confidence in it

- Systems increase confidence for some by narrowing estimates to a more manageable range

pj
chgo

 

[mikepage]

Hey... if you guys were born with the God-given gift to feel stuff in, perfect. Most people were never born with natural talent. I do know this, and if I could find a way to bet it.... I would. You give Ron Vitello or Stan Shuffet 3 days with 10 random league players to show them this stuff in more detail and you (the non-system-believers) wanna take 10 random people and then see who improves the most.... I'd bet my entire life savings our group would improve and order of MAGNITUDE better than the feel group.

I'm not talking 10 years.... I'm talking days. MAN, I wish I could pull you guys all-in. It's awesome to be born with talent and feel....it's sad to have to develop that feel over 25 years when you can develop it in less than 1 year. My game-- run out ability and banking ability was MULTIPLE balls less 1 year ago... and I've been playing for over 15 years. In less than a year, using exactly this info, my ball pocketing has literally shot to Jupiter. If I learned this stuff 10 years ago, who knows where I'd be.

You fired in lots of banks on the video. My guess, though, is that if you put the same level of attention to those kinds of banks (dead on, a little long, a little short) combined with the knowledge that you can lengthen or shorten banks with sidespin and/or cut the ball slightly, you would have fired in those same banks. I'm not a great banker, but if I play with those banks for ten minutes or so on a given table I get a sense of them and can fire in a bunch in a row. And yes it is useful to lengthen or shorten them with spin.

I remember when John Barton (onepocketchump) first became a Houligan. He swore he had an immediate improvement of at least two balls, that he was playing at a way higher level. Well I played him before and after the transformation, with the same results. I'm not saying he didn't learn useful things. But I didn't see any substantive change in his game. I think self-perception and self-report of improvement is a tricky thing, and I'm a little skeptical.

If someone believes there's no such thing as aiming systems or banking systems... NO MATTER what you think your speed is.... you're completely ignorant....and naive, there's nothing I or anyone can do to enlighten you.

I'm not sure what you're really saying here. Of COURSE there are aiming systems. We encounter them all the time on this forum.

And there are a lot of people here who while they may be cynical are not ignorant. Many are open to new ideas and to examining new approaches.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The main thing you demonstrate with this system is that you have an abundance of "feel". This system doesn't work by giving you three specific shots that work for everything; it works by categorizing your shots into three groups (or "ranges") that make it easier for you to "feel" the specific shot needed in each case. It narrows the selection down to a more manageable range of possibilities from which to choose.

The very first step in the system is to "feel" what category of shot you're faced with. If it's a "1/2 tip" shot, you know that from experience - by feel. But you haven't yet identified the exact shot; you've determined the category or range of shots it belongs to (the range between "no tip" and "1 tip").

Only a small minority of actual shots can be made using only the three specific cut angles defined by the system, so all the rest (the great majority of actual shots) are made by finding the specific aim within the range you've chosen that exactly fits the shot you have. You know it's "somewhere around 1/2 tip", and you decide exactly where by feel.



This is a relatively unexplored area in pool - I think everybody is pretty ignorant and naive about it. Those who are most certain they know "the way" are the most ignorant and naive (and obnoxious).

But I think there are some things we do know:

- "Feel" is another word for "estimating from experience"

- Everybody uses feel/estimation on every shot, consciously or unconsciously

- Systems narrow the range of estimation; they don't eliminate it

- Estimation works best when you have confidence in it

- Systems increase confidence for some by narrowing estimates to a more manageable range

pj
chgo

Sorry for being obnoxious... I was tired last night and cranky.

If this info doesn't help you, no prob. Sorry for being excited.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You fired in lots of banks on the video. My guess, though, is that if you put the same level of attention to those kinds of banks (dead on, a little long, a little short) combined with the knowledge that you can lengthen or shorten banks with sidespin and/or cut the ball slightly, you would have fired in those same banks. I'm not a great banker, but if I play with those banks for ten minutes or so on a given table I get a sense of them and can fire in a bunch in a row. And yes it is useful to lengthen or shorten them with spin.

I remember when John Barton (onepocketchump) first became a Houligan. He swore he had an immediate improvement of at least two balls, that he was playing at a way higher level. Well I played him before and after the transformation, with the same results. I'm not saying he didn't learn useful things. But I didn't see any substantive change in his game. I think self-perception and self-report of improvement is a tricky thing, and I'm a little skeptical.



I'm not sure what you're really saying here. Of COURSE there are aiming systems. We encounter them all the time on this forum.

And there are a lot of people here who while they may be cynical are not ignorant. Many are open to new ideas and to examining new approaches.

I may have misread an earlier post-- someone said they didn't exist, which is what prompted that comment.

Can't speak intelligently about John - don't know the guy. I went, within a few months, from running occasional 30's to running 30's every day and depending how I'm feeling - higher. I usually miss because or either boredom or leaving the CB on the rail (positioning error).

I really have no fear in missing shots-- not saying I don't, I just feel that locked in. It's fair to think that might just be confidence, but if I do the same aiming technique as a part of my pre-shot routine every single time, it's also fair to say that technique has to be solid.

By the way, your past videos helped me a lot. I have to shake your hand the next time I see you. Keep them coming.

Patrick digs into me good and I enjoy the back and forth. If I was Batman, he's the joker -- or vice versa. There really are two groups of people on different sides of the chasm.

I think for those people who have played traditionally for YEARS and still can't beat a good player, they should consider the alternative. Call it a Houligan method or "Ronnie V from NYC" method... whatever. I called this video "Non-Traditional" and knew it would start controversy on purpose.

When I said this info changed my life, it did. Once again... don't know who John Barton is...but when I say my game increased multiple balls-- it did. I always understate and over-deliver. For those who haven't seen me play in a few years, if they checked out some of my 14.1 videos on poolvids.... I could post 30-40 ball runs daily if I had the time and desire.

Anyways, I appreciate everyone's feedback--- glad I helped some of you--- and believe it or not, welcome all of Patrick's criticisms.... many are very valid. I got so inundated with responses, I know I mis-stated some things in a few of my threads because my mind was racing trying to answer everyone and keep track of everything. Doesn't mean the info in the video isn't solid (which I know some of you will debate--- but that's what makes this forum great).

Finally, sorry for getting cocky in that previous thread. I get that way after a few beers. I'm retracting the cocky shit. :thumbup:

 

[cuenut]

Just watched your video and was impressed with the system, and will try something else when I go to the pool hall tonight that will be more closely linked to the center to center system you discussed.

If you identify the true geometric reflection of the path of the cueball and it is at the center of the pocket, barring the speed of the shot and the action of the cushion on the table you are shooting, theortically the shot will go in.

I will then try to eliminate the "guesstimation" of how much off center I need to shoot the shot at the same speed if the geometric reflection is off that perfect line. This is most likely already discussed in some other course/book, but I don't have a very extensive library, so I will experiment myself.

If the geometric reflection is off, say 1 diamond from the pocket, what adjustment, in terms of tip off center, or "clock time equivalent" needs to be made to make it consistently? This would lessen even more the "feel" or "estimation" in the shot. I will hopefully remember to post my findings soon. Rep to you for this thread. Very informative.

 

[androd]

Just watched your video and was impressed with the system, and will try something else when I go to the pool hall tonight that will be more closely linked to the center to center system you discussed.

If you identify the true geometric reflection of the path of the cueball and it is at the center of the pocket, barring the speed of the shot and the action of the cushion on the table you are shooting, theortically the shot will go in.

I will then try to eliminate the "guesstimation" of how much off center I need to shoot the shot at the same speed if the geometric reflection is off that perfect line. This is most likely already discussed in some other course/book, but I don't have a very extensive library, so I will experiment myself.

If the geometric reflection is off, say 1 diamond from the pocket, what adjustment, in terms of tip off center, or "clock time equivalent" needs to be made to make it consistently? This would lessen even more the "feel" or "estimation" in the shot. I will hopefully remember to post my findings soon. Rep to you for this thread. Very informative.

not sure what the geometric reflection is? but if the CB and OB are both one diamond from the pocket,( not frozen) pivot 1 tip on the short rail and 1/2 tip on long rail banks .(long rails are twice as far) 1 1/2 diamonds 1 1/2 tips the trick is to figure out how much 1 tip is. hope this helps