Not

[TWOFORPOOL]

I always call a foul on myself even if my opponent didn't see it. If I don't call the foul I am cheating and I would rather loose that cheat to win. As far as I am concerned when you have to cheat to win then the win means nothing.

When I think it might be a close hit I either have my opponent or a third party watch the hit.

 

[CreeDo]

So is it okay if everyone expects you to not call yourself? How far does sportsmanship reach? Is it something that needs to be reciprocated? Am I wrong for adjusting my play to what is the norm in the area?

Bob's got it.

Most of the sissy fouls that you might sweat happen during friendly games. Even league games are often meaningless. When the stakes are small it's easy to find justifications (everyone's doing it, they all expect me to do it). But would you rob someone out of a 2000 dollar set? 20,000? The US Open title?

If you can do that and live with it, why not just cheat in a more direct way? If you don't call the bad hit or the accidental cue ball touch, how about you don't mention the gap you left when you racked for them? Why not 'forget' to stop moving in their line of vision? And insist all of their close calls are bad hits even if you know differently?

Ultimately we enjoy pool for the feeling of accomplishment it gives us. On some level everyone on this forum thinks they've got some knack for pool and they know they play better than some people they know. You can't get that feeling knowing you cheated to win. Maybe you can get some temporary cash, but most of us also know there's not much cash to be had playing pool, especially if you get a rep as bad action. So what's the payoff in an undeserved win?

 

[Luxury]

Here is a point to ponder: How normal and acceptable is it for Borana to step up and say, (just like when a player declares a ball frozen) "If the three is hit first the six will move this direction and if the six is hit first it will move in this direction."

I'm not saying this is her responsibility at all but would it, could it, should it be a welcome trend? (When playing for serious dough without a ref?)

 

[Beer:30]

Bob's got it.

Most of the sissy fouls that you might sweat happen during friendly games. Even league games are often meaningless. When the stakes are small it's easy to find justifications (everyone's doing it, they all expect me to do it). But would you rob someone out of a 2000 dollar set? 20,000? The US Open title?

If you can do that and live with it, why not just cheat in a more direct way? If you don't call the bad hit or the accidental cue ball touch, how about you don't mention the gap you left when you racked for them? Why not 'forget' to stop moving in their line of vision? And insist all of their close calls are bad hits even if you know differently?

Ultimately we enjoy pool for the feeling of accomplishment it gives us. On some level everyone on this forum thinks they've got some knack for pool and they know they play better than some people they know. You can't get that feeling knowing you cheated to win. Maybe you can get some temporary cash, but most of us also know there's not much cash to be had playing pool, especially if you get a rep as bad action. So what's the payoff in an undeserved win?

I don't disagree from a strictly moral standpoint but we have different norms for different situations. In the group I was playing in not calling fouls was silently accepted. Drinking is accepted in bars but not in court. Even if you don't get officially reprimanded in court for drinking most of society would openly disapprove. Jaywalking is illegal in many areas but violating that rule isn't socially unacceptable. We don't pass moral judgement because someone violates jaywalking laws. Gossiping isn't illegal but is to some degree socially unacceptable. We often do make moral judgement of other people based on what they say or do not say about other people.

I conformed to the group norms even though they were different than my own. Under the circumstances I didn't expect that my opponent would call foul. I wasn't going to think less of him/her if they didn't because it was the accepted norm. There was a different set of expectations. Relative to that group was there any transgression? If your opponent or your group doesn't consider it a violation then is it?

As for the more direct cheating comment not calling fouls was accepted. Sharking and doctoring racks were not. Had I participated in those activities I would have been violating the group norms.

I would be more comfortable if the group norms were closer to my own. I would rather call fouls but I conformed to what the group and my team expected because I wanted to be accepted and play some pool. As long as the entire group was playing with the same expectations was it really wrong in that context? This is what I was getting at.

PS. When playing individually I call everything no matter how obscure.

 

[poolplayer2093]

So I was watching the Borana vs OMGWTF match when I got to pondering the way people call fouls. In the old league I played in in Pierce county when someone fouled the seated player would stand up and walk up to the table, hover there hand over the cue ball and say, "Ball in hand right?"

I moved to Kitsap county and when someone fouls their opponent immediately and firmly says, "Foul!" like a ref might. I believe this technique prevents as many refusals to admit the foul.

What baffles me is when a player denies that they fouled when everyone in the room knows they did and ball in hand isn't even going to be a real advantage. Don't they know that by doing this they are just asking for their opponent to pull the same crap only at a more game deciding time?

hay if you foul and don't tell your opponent that's your business. this is pool we're playing and when you want to win bad enough some times people take it too far.

i've played people that've called fouls on themselves for 200 and i've played guys that jump out of their chair and scream "foul" when we're playing for time. i guess it depends on how honest you are.

i'm one of those guys who was taught from an early age to be respectful. i always considered it pretty disrespectful when other players jump up and scream foul instead of saying it like a normal person

 

[Fast Lenny]

I cant chat much, in Vegas and busy here. I have to say they both played with no ref for 8 hours and that was the only questionable shot. Melinda played all day and into the wee hours, the shot took place at around 6am and she said she was unsure about the hit so it is what it is to be honest. Melinda has a ton of heart and she was not trying to get over or cheat, it was close but it was a foul from what I saw on the video. This thread is much to do about nothing really, was just too close to call with no ref.

 

[DelaWho???]

I call fouls on myself and always ask if a foul has been committed before picking up the CB. If my opponent denies the foul, I will point out what I saw and why it was a foul. If they disagree I let it go. Then I know the type of player I am dealing with.

I know several people who will call fouls on themselves unless they perceive that their opponent isn't paying attention to the game. They will wait to be asked if they fouled in those situations, and admit to the foul if questioned. The rationale being that if the other player isn't interested enough to pay attention it's their tough luck.

Personally I find it irritating when my opponent would rather socialize than play pool, but if I foul, when they return to the table the CB is up off of the playing surface on a cube of chalk waiting for them. I am not going to cheat to win.

 

[EDRJR]

I don't ask

but I don't take ball in hand. I wait for my opponent to declare ball in hand for me. If they don't, I know the moral character of that person. I then play much harder to beat them, especially in tornements. I always call fouls on myself and even give up ball in hand when hits are too close to call.

 

[bigdaddygerald]

girls play nicer than boys

I watched the whole match from start to end and tbo i dont think i have ever seen the fellas play for 20 with the class those 2 showed for 2k.

Tap Tap Tap to the ladies for playing one heck of a match and keeping it cordial. Had it been 2 guys playing when that came up it might not have went so smooth.

 

[mullyman]

http://www.ustream.tv/user/ontherail/videos

second video down at 2:10 minutes you be the judge. The six would not have moved like it did had it not been hit first but I give Melinda the benefit of the doubt that she is just lacking this knowledge or was too tired to realize. In all reality ball in hand would have been bigger than I'd thought.

Just asked Melinda about it and she said that she told Borana that she didn't see it and told Borana if she thought she fouled then take ball in hand and Borana didn't take it. Good sportsmanship by both players imo.

I went to the second video down and 2:10. Nothing there worth talking about.

Also, someone tell the Borana girl, or whatever her name is, that when she gets ball in hand like she had around the 4:00 mark there that she'd be better off going around to the other side of the 3. Extremely poor choice of position considering she had ball in hand and how simple it would have been to just go right under the 3 and out to the other side of it.
MULLY

 

[ShootingArts]

just an example

Definitely a foul. If Melinda was looking at the OBs at the time of contact then she shoulda saw the foul. If it's clear from a grainy internet stream, it would be clear when she's 5 feet away.

I can't know what's in anyone else's head... but in my experience, in a questionable hit situation, I immediately make a snap judgment as to good hit or bad hit. I then stick to my guns on it.

If Melinda's brain works like mine (maybe it doesn't) and she felt she fouled, she shoulda called it on herself. Giving the other player the "option" is no substitute for honesty. If she felt it was clean she should just insist it was clean. "Option" is wishy washy.

I might give the other guy an option when I am truly and completely baffled about the hit, like it's very close. But just from my experience that comes up like twice a year. And technically, if it's too close to call and the other guy also can't say for sure... we all know the official rule, right? It goes to the shooter.

PS to hu: I also think that's a little aggressive to just assume the foul. Yes, when I was younger I didn't call them on myself, I can agree with the idea that we've all done it. I just think at some point a person outgrows it and never does it again. At least that's how it's gone with me. I assume anyone who can shoot decently has played long enough to outgrow it unless they are a genuinely sleazy person.
My personal batch of regular opponents will just call it on themselves or accept my call if I'm in a good position to see it. Sometimes they say "forget it" on the obvious dumb ones. For money or tournament play, I won't just scoop it up. Maybe there's a 10 or 20% chance it'll squash their urge to get away with something, but there's probably an even larger chance they will argue it even harder and flip out... maybe to the point where they go looking for an excuse to invent fouls against you.

Sure it is aggressively taking control of a situation. An example is a guy I played in a fair sized tournament that drew players from a few states awhile back. He was ready to flip the coin and said call it. I gave him the benefit of the doubt and called it before it was in the air. He skidded the coin out and cheated on the coin toss. I let it ride.

The first time he fouled I called foul in no uncertain terms and picked up the cue ball without giving him a chance to respond. He had already shown me he was a cheating piece of sh!t and I knew he would argue any foul he made. When I took over he had the options of calling the TD over, sitting down and shutting up, or getting a cue ball in the teeth. Not surprisingly he sat down and shut up. We played the rest of the match the same way without incident. I didn't tolerate any fouls from him and I handed him the cue ball like a gentleman should when I fouled. As common practice when I foul I either state I fouled and leave the balls undisturbed if it is a game that doesn't give ball in hand or I pick up the cue ball and hand it to my opponent or push it across the table with my cue to leave no doubt I know I fouled.

My normal inclination is to play strictly by the rules and once I figured I could spot almost anybody them cheating and me playing fair and still beat them. I'm not as confident about that these days. I'll let the other person make the rules, but we will both play by them. I will make a cheater absolutely crazy just by pretending to cheat. A quick jerk to see if they saw something now and then when there was nothing to see has them jumping around like fresh froglegs in a hot skillet and the railbirds laughing because there truly was nothing to see.

Hu

 

[CreeDo]

Beer: I get what you mean about group norms, and I know different social situations call for different responses. When I'm playing some buddies who don't play pool, I don't sweat it if they didn't catch a rail or accidentally tap the cue ball.

But just as I say "don't worry about it" to them, I will always call a foul on myself and give the other guy the option to be generous about it and say "don't worry about it" to me. If he chooses to take it I can't complain.

You stopped in league games because your buddies gave you crap. That's the normal experience for some, but others have league buddies who understand and play the same way. I don't want to come off like mr. preachy moral high ground, but if I had buddies in league who said "man, stop calling those tit fouls on yourself"... I'd tell them to piss off. And I'd keep doing it and encourage them to do the same, using the same cheating argument I gave in the last post.

It sounds like you already get the ethics and reasoning behind it. See if you can get your buddies to see it that way.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Last week this happened where I am. Hill-Hill guy cuts the 8-Ball down the rail setting up for the 9-Ball. Well the cue ball went off the nipple of the side pocket and back into his tip on the shot. Obvious to everyone.

"Ball in hand?" Opponent says...."No I got my tip out of the way before it hit that's why I shot it like that." says the Shooter. Lots of arguing, Shooter wins the set. "Should have got somebody to watch the hit" says shooter, opponent says "If I would have known you were gonna hit it that bad I would have."

After the set Shooter wants to flip the coin...opponent says screw you and starts gambling with someone else.

Moral of the story is for the money pretty people do some ugly things and I've seen most of it done.

 

[NewStroke]

Last week this happened where I am. Hill-Hill guy cuts the 8-Ball down the rail setting up for the 9-Ball. Well the cue ball went off the nipple of the side pocket and back into his tip on the shot. Obvious to everyone.

"Ball in hand?" Opponent says...."No I got my tip out of the way before it hit that's why I shot it like that." says the Shooter. Lots of arguing, Shooter wins the set. "Should have got somebody to watch the hit" says shooter, opponent says "If I would have known you were gonna hit it that bad I would have."

After the set Shooter wants to flip the coin...opponent says screw you and starts gambling with someone else.

Moral of the story is for the money pretty people do some ugly things and I've seen most of it done.

The other moral of the story is, if it's gonna be close, have a 3rd party watch it.

 

[mikeyfrost]

The other moral of the story is, if it's gonna be close, have a 3rd party watch it.

I wish I could use cue table from work. The balls were not close together at all. It was one of those shots where you hit with some follow and on the follow through the cue ball never hit the side rail and went straight off the point of the side pocket right back towards him. no one on earth would call a ref on that shot, it's one of those back cuts trying to play 3 rail shape shots.

 

[NewStroke]

I wish I could use cue table from work. The balls were not close together at all. It was one of those shots where you hit with some follow and on the follow through the cue ball never hit the side rail and went straight off the point of the side pocket right back towards him. no one on earth would call a ref on that shot, it's one of those back cuts trying to play 3 rail shape shots.

Then it sounds like he should have been watching. I bet he already made the call before you shot. I've seen that happen in many things other than pool.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

The other moral of the story is, if it's gonna be close, have a 3rd party watch it.

This can also bite you in the arse. It sure has to me and I doubt I will do it again. I've found calling in a 3rd party often yields a near inperceptible, miniscule bang bang play as being FAR more apt to be called a bad hit. Same with telling your opponent "watch this hit". Screw it.

There's no blanket wide policy to go by. Different people and different circumstances dictate you make the best judgments available.

KK9 <-- too often getting the short end on calls because it's not worth fouling the atmosphere of the match over one call. I'll have a discussion and if I yield, even though convinced I'm right, the opponent often chokes out of guilt. Call it Karma if you want, but guilt can work and it beats ill will.

 

[sfleinen]

Take Beano to prevent fouls

Thread title: Not admitting to a foul

And if one is flatulent, why would *anyone* admit to his/her foul? Just let 'er rip (silently, if you can), and walk out of the room. You leave your foul behind. That is, unless, one is so proud of it to claim it?

 

[backplaying]

You can tell much about a persons honesty when playing pool and golf. I was never so surprised by the cheating in golf when i took that game up. After many years i found very few people who was honest enough to call a stroke penalty on themselfs. I found many many more cheaters in golf than i ever have in pool. It might be because its much harder for others to see the penaltys in golf,but this is no excuse,its just very telling of the person. I believe that it will always come back on you, more that once! If i foul and they're looking i just touch the cueball with my stick,and say ball in hand.If they're not looking i hand it to them. Another example is, what will you do when someone gives you back to much change?

 

[butterflycues]

foul

I guess everyone plays by the local rules.
Around here, you just grab the CB without an acknowladged foul and all hell breaks loose. Then you run the risk of the foul on you. I don't know. Grabbing the CB I really don't thik is the answer.

I seen this happen one night and it cost the guy the tournament. The last game was on the line and the guy grabbed the cue ball thinking the guy fouled and he didn't. Ball in hand for the other guy and he ran out. Butterflycues