Now & Then Who's the Better

I am the proud owner of all of Ali´s and all of Mike´s fights. IMO Ali would win 6 out of ten times, the other four would end in the first or second round with a knockout blow from Iron Mike.
I think Foreman and Louis both hit just as hard as Mike does, but they didn´t have his speed across the ring.

Back to cue-sports. In snooker all the old pro´s keep telling that today´s players are a hell of a lot better than they were. Off course a super-talent will occur most every generation and be pretty much unbeatable when his game is on. But if you would let today´s top 1000 compete with the top 1000 from twenty years ago I think the score would be something like 750-250 for the new guys. You can´t put this in black/white perspective I think. Is Engert better than Mosconi? Impossible to say, has the level of play risen (like it has in every other sport)? Yes.
 
Double-Dave said:
I am the proud owner of all of Ali´s and all of Mike´s fights. IMO Ali would win 6 out of ten times, the other four would end in the first or second round with a knockout blow from Iron Mike.
I think Foreman and Louis both hit just as hard as Mike does, but they didn´t have his speed across the ring.

Back to cue-sports. In snooker all the old pro´s keep telling that today´s players are a hell of a lot better than they were. Off course a super-talent will occur most every generation and be pretty much unbeatable when his game is on. But if you would let today´s top 1000 compete with the top 1000 from twenty years ago I think the score would be something like 750-250 for the new guys. You can´t put this in black/white perspective I think. Is Engert better than Mosconi? Impossible to say, has the level of play risen (like it has in every other sport)? Yes.
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Might as well chime in here. Mike Tysons never fought anybody. If he had ever run into George Foreman he would have been flattened like a pancake - end of story. Foreman had a huge reach advantage and could hit harder than any man alive. Just ask Smoking Joe, who more or less fought Tyson style, wading in straight on, what happened when he ran into Foreman ----> very short fights by the way.

Also, Ali would have outsmarted the dumb witted Tysons.

Oops, I forgot to add that I always wanted to see the big bad Tysons go into the UFC ring. What a joke that would have been. Still possible though. Someone give him a ring - I am sure that he could use a few hard earned bucks LOL.
 
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Look who handles Tyson easily...Evander Holyfield.

IMHO it would have been no contest with ALI, who was just way the better fighter. Imagine a bigger, stronger, faster, smarter Holyfield. And a young Foreman would have bombed Tyson too. The best fight may have been Joe Frazier against Tyson. Similar sizes and builds. I still pick Frazier. Moves better, can take a punch, and has way more heart than the quitter Tyson.

Now for my pool analysis. Again IMHO, the best players from 20-25 years ago were every bit as good as the best players today. Let's see, Mizerak, Sigel, Buddy for sure. Then you have Hopkins, Rempe and Varner right behind them and a young Earl. The first six played all games great, except Buddy may have been a little weak in 14.1 but made up for it by being the best banker.

Earl was one of the first 9-Ball whizzes, rarely playing One Pocket or Straights. Today many of the young guns only play 9-Ball, and maybe a little One Pocket. So let's see who are the best players today. I like Thorsten, Ralf, Efren, Francisco, Manolo, Orcullo and two or three Taiwanese guys. Johnny is the only American I might put in there.

So if I had to match up five or six players from the previous generation and pick five from the current crop and play an All Around championship, I would definitely take the older guys. Mizerak, Sigel, Buddy, Hopkins, Varner and Rempe ALL play jam up One Pocket and 9-Ball. In 14.1 they are huge favorites over the current guys (leave Buddy out here).

If you want to throw Eight Ball into the mix, nothing changes. Just my opinion, but I did see them all play, many times.

The big difference today is that there are more good players. Many, many strong shooters all over the world. But the best players today are no better than the best of yesteryear. Only Efren at One Pocket seems clearly above the others. But no one today can bank like Bugs. And on a bar table, a young Keith would terrorize these young champions. Matlock too.

As Tammie would say, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Oh by the way. If you start talking women's pool, it's a whole other deal. This current crop of top women is light years above the previous generation. Allison, Karen, Kelly, Jasmin et al, are at least two speeds (three?) above the level of 1980's women's play, with one exception. Right Jean Balukas. She could play right there with the best of today's women.
 
whitewolf said:
Might as well chime in here. Mike Tysons never fought anybody. If he had ever run into George Foreman he would have been flattened like a pancake - end of story. LOL.
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Even at Tyson's peak, I think he would have been brutalized by Foreman, Frazier, and Ali.

I would like to have seen Joe Frazier and Tyson fight. I think Frazier was the toughest most relentless fighter with the biggest hook and biggest heart of any fighter. Tyson couldn't take punishment, had no heart, and had poor endurance but could punch with the best of them. Watching those two pulverize each other with uppercuts and brutal hooks would have been interesting.

Chris

Ps. Jay, we think alike - I posed this before I read your post.
 
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jay helfert said:
Now for my pool analysis. Again IMHO, the best players from 20-25 years ago were every bit as good as the best players today. Let's see, Mizerak, Sigel, Buddy for sure. Then you have Hopkins, Rempe and Varner right behind them and a young Earl. The first six played all games great, except Buddy may have been a little weak in 14.1 but made up for it by being the best banker.

Earl was one of the first 9-Ball whizzes, rarely playing One Pocket or Straights. Today many of the young guns only play 9-Ball, and maybe a little One Pocket. So let's see who are the best players today. I like Thorsten, Ralf, Efren, Francisco, Manolo, Orcullo and two or three Taiwanese guys. Johnny is the only American I might put in there.

So if I had to match up five or six players from the previous generation and pick five from the current crop and play an All Around championship, I would definitely take the older guys. Mizerak, Sigel, Buddy, Hopkins, Varner and Rempe ALL play jam up One Pocket and 9-Ball. In 14.1 they are huge favorites over the current guys (leave Buddy out here).

If you want to throw Eight Ball into the mix, nothing changes. Just my opinion, but I did see them all play, many times.

The big difference today is that there are more good players. Many, many strong shooters all over the world. But the best players today are no better than the best of yesteryear. Only Efren at One Pocket seems clearly above the others. But no one today can bank like Bugs. And on a bar table, a young Keith would terrorize these young champions. Matlock too.
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I guess I am getting old because I consider these guys all to be modern players.:)

I was thinking the question was more about how Lassiter, Mosconi, Jimmy Moore, Balsis and that generation would do against todays players. In 9 ball and one pocket I think they would get smoked and I think they could run over all of today's players in straight pool and 8 ball.

The later players, Rempe, Sigel, Hall and Varner would all be world champions today in any game if they were in their prime and in stroke, no question about it.

Chris
 
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TATE said:
Even at Tyson's peak, I think he would have been brutalized by Foreman, Frazier, and Ali.

I would like to have seen Joe Frazier and Tyson fight. I think Frazier was the toughest most relentless fighter with the biggest hook and biggest heart of any fighter. Tyson couldn't take punishment, had no heart, and had poor endurance but could punch with the best of them. Watching those two pulverize each other with uppercuts and brutal hooks would have been interesting.

Chris
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Is it possible his endurance issues were a by product of a "body by seroids"? Did he knock anybody out after the 6th rd?
 
ribdoner said:
Is it possible his endurance issues were a by product of a "body by seroids"? Did he knock anybody out after the 6th rd?
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I never thought about that, but it certainly is possible. You look at his face and body. He has that too-much-testosterone look and it would also explain his bizarre-ass behavior, the rape, the agression.

I wondered about his endurance early in his career when he fought an older tough guy - that Bonecrusher guy - forget his name. The longer the fight went, Tyson 's punches slowed down to the point where he couldn't connect. Bonecrusher was just too old to KO him but it left me wondering why Tyson's conditioning at about age 21 was so poor.

Chris
 
I thought Efren said he believes he played his best pool about 20 years ago. :confused: That's a scary thought considering his record as of late.

ghost ball
 
ShootingArts said:
I was referring to when Tyson peaked. Was he twenty-one or even a little younger?

Hard to say how a young Tyson would have done. He had no competition. I wonder if he had, how different things might have been. Of course his mentor died too and he spun out of control. Was Cus D'amico his mentor or am I crossing names up? I wonder if Tyson could have bulled past Ali's defenses in the first round or two. After that I would favor Ali over Tyson.

Joe Frazier is my favorite heavyweight of all time. More heart than the law ought to allow. Had he tangled with Tyson, both in their prime, it would have been like fighting a mirror as far as build and styles. I would bet Joe just on heart and class.

Hu
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Cus Damata
 
I saw your uncle, Cisero Murphy. play many times in NYC in the 60's when he was just coming up in the professional world. The most memorable Cisero moments was at the Commodore Hotel in New York at the 14.1 World Championships, with its wood paneled ballroom, tuxedo clad players, and cigar smoking spectators. It was classy and electric. In comes this quiet, unassuming young man, Cisero Murphy, with his famous slip stroke, tangling with the likes of Irving Crane, Joe Balsis, Babe Cranfield, and on and on. The way he worked his way around the table, he was smooth, elegant, and magical. You should be very proud.
 
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