Object ball "Skid" - real or just a BS excuse?

[mjantti]

One point you guys are missing is that massive skids occur, imo, much more often on new cloth with new balls. The Camel tour was absolutely riddled with skids using brand new simoniz and brand new Belgian balls on brand new Diamond tables.

I agree. Brand new set of balls on a new cloth will give more skids and they seem to be "harder" than skids with normal used clean equipment. And no, I'm not sure from where it comes from. It's enough for me that I understand that the phenomen is there and avoid using inside english on cut shots with slow pace. Edit: yes, it was EPC. Probably once in a decade chance to play on a brand new equipment. Lots of skids in the first 14.1 event (made me pull out my hair a few times... missing a hanger isn't nice)

And yes, another my-opinion-is-gold-and-yours-suck-and-you-suck -thread.

 

[pete lafond]

Hmmm... could it be that when we pick up the cueball for ball-in-hand play, we transfer a bit of oil from our hands? Then if a chalked tip hits that spot, then there would be chalk stuck on the cueball rather than just "lying on the surface.

Fred

Yes, this is another way. Great point.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I have never played snooker. I will play him 8 ball, 9 ball, 10 ball, 1 pocket, any or all of the games and since you have felt free to open your big mouth you have the same offer since you are an IPTer. You and I can also play the 12 ball ghost back and forth. Now all you have to do is grow some balls to match your mouth

I appreciate the offer, but I've got more brains than balls to put my money on a bet for ego's sake.

12 ball ghost is very impressive. I'm not much of a rotation player (Haven't spent a lot of time on the game), so it's out of my speed to be honest, but I'm working on it Maybe after a season on the IPT and having seen your 8-ball game I would consider a wager in 8-ball.

That said, skill ratings have little to do with one's right to an opinion. I hope you'll share more of your knowledge and a little less of your aggravation.

btw: If you're ever in Shanghai I'll put up 1k for you if you can beat the 11 ball ghost race to 15 on my table. It would be worth it just to see you do it

Colin

 

[pete lafond]

After reading most of that 9-page thread, I believe that Pete agrees that side-spin transfers, but rather it is the semantics that he does not agree with. (Sorry Pete, I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but that it my conclusion after reading this thread.)

Transfer: To convey or cause to pass from one place, person, or thing to another.

Case 1: Straight shot, no english on CB => OB results in roll (forward spin).
Case 2: Straight in shot, left english => OB results in "twist" (forward spin + right english).

In both cases, the "forward spin" on the OB was a result of the friction of the cloth. Assume that CB was hit slow enought that any minute backspin or slide on the OB rubbed off quickly and turned into roll.

In case 2, there was "transferred" english from CB to OB, and there was also the forward roll caused by the cloth friction. Side spin + forward spin = twist. Pete, I think you just don't agree with the word "transfer", but please check out the definition and I think you might actually agree with the term. Its a pretty loose term.

Analogy: throw football out of car passenger window. (Disclaimer: do not throw footall out of window. ) Your arm "transfers" momentum to the ball to the right (assuming U.S. car -- left side driver). The car "transfers" momentum to the ball in the forward direction. These vectors combine so that the football is travelling "diagonally" (with respect to the road).

Well stated. If you were to look at any of the pictures I had posted, you will see that I showed what really happens to the OB as opposed to what some others were saying. They used to say the OB "Twists" or "Turns" when side English is applied. Kind of like how people spin a CB between their fingers to get it to hook around the table. The felt would be your thumb and your forefingers is the spinning CB. In getting a delecate bank or playing a safe to position the OB to hide it off a rail and not understanding the OB's actual reaction can get you in trouble.

The effect is more or an action rather than to describe it as an english transfer.

 

[pete lafond]

Boy, I thought I had a bad weekend till I started reading this thread, lol.

One point you guys are missing is that massive skids occur, imo, much more often on new cloth with new balls. The Camel tour was absolutely riddled with skids using brand new simoniz and brand new Belgian balls on brand new Diamond tables.

It's my belief that most skids are caused by something picked up off of the pocket by the object ball. Soft rubber pockets are notorious for rubbing off on the balls and have caused most skids I have seen on worn pool room cloth. But the leather pockets on Diamonds (and Snooker tables?) also rub off onto the balls leaving a brownish burn-looking mark. Diamond has been working for years to minimize that problem.

The lowering of friction between cloth and balls resulting from playing with new cloth, new, polished balls, and or even cleaning with ethanol will just increase the likelihood of a skid caused by something on the ball contact point.

unknownpro

Interesting on the soft rubber pockets, never considered that. The leather pockets(conditioner used) and new felt are heavier with oils, so I can understand that one. It would be interesting to find out if used balls are smoother than new ones. It would make sense that they would be because they wear from the felt. If this is the case, more friction would then exist with the newer ones.

Good post.

 

[DougT]

Back off, thebighurt

You must be The Ones brother, siamese jackoffs. So I will now spell it out for you in brail also MORON!!! Skid is caused by friction between the object ball and cueball. In Game Play MORON, the chalk on the cueball hittng the chalk mark on the object ball causes the skids in GAME PLAY. O.K. you 2 MORONS. What the hell does what The One is saying have to do with actual play. Explain it to me like I am a moron like you.

My last post was for Doug T. aka The Ones brother aka another moron aka dumb ass etc....

You know, you really show your intelligence level here, by calling names and speaking rudely.

But I'll ask you now to apologize for your boorish attack.

DougT

 

[juanbond]

12 ball ghost is very impressive.

Could someone explain to the less-enlightened of us what this GHOST concept is all about? What is 12 ball ghost? How does it work?

Much obliged!

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Thebighurt ( Rob Melrose ) has been warned.



I don't care if you are a pro or a backstop.

We have fairly clear rules regarding behaviour on this board and I will enforce them.

Feel free to ask questions.

Dave

 

[DougT]

Could someone explain to the less-enlightened of us what this GHOST concept is all about? What is 12 ball ghost? How does it work?

Much obliged!

Using the search tab up top, read this for a general idea
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=23887

 

[unknownpro]

I appreciate the offer, but I've got more brains than balls to put my money on a bet for ego's sake.

12 ball ghost is very impressive. I'm not much of a rotation player (Haven't spent a lot of time on the game), so it's out of my speed to be honest, but I'm working on it Maybe after a season on the IPT and having seen your 8-ball game I would consider a wager in 8-ball.

That said, skill ratings have little to do with one's right to an opinion. I hope you'll share more of your knowledge and a little less of your aggravation.

btw: If you're ever in Shanghai I'll put up 1k for you if you can beat the 11 ball ghost race to 15 on my table. It would be worth it just to see you do it

Colin

Smooth Colin! Most people don't realize that the 11-ball ghost is at least a ball tougher than 12-ball, assuming a good rack. Twelve-ball is still very impressive though, and I've played a lot of rotation. Do we have anymore bids? Let's get somebody playing and post the videos!

unknownpro

 

[Blackjack]

Could someone explain to the less-enlightened of us what this GHOST concept is all about? What is 12 ball ghost? How does it work?

Much obliged!

 

[bud green]

As far as new balls helping skid to occur more frequently goes, is there something manufacturers put on the balls to help protect them before they're used?

I thought I might have heard that you were supposed to clean the balls before their first use because of some coating on the balls that needed to be removed. Anyone know?

Gunk from pockets gets on balls on the time- I have to scrape dark crap off the balls with my fingernails at my pool hall all the time because of old worn out pockets leaving crap on them.

 

[mikepage]

It is unfortunate that their experiment was sufficently flawed to prove nothing. Acetone? Good Lord!

Chalk is a sufficient explanation. It can be easily shown to cause the increase in friction that is observed on skid/cling/kicks. It is observed to be transferred from the tip to the cue ball. And when kick/skid/cling has occurred, if you look closely at the cue ball you can sometimes see a scuff mark in chalk residue.

For me the case is quite well proven that it is chalk at the contact point that causes cling/kick/skid.

Chalk? CHALK? You're kidding, right? Do you REALLY think chalk causes cling?

Sheesh... Next you'll be saying a miscue can be caused by a lack of chalk...

mike page
fargo

 

[Bob Jewett]

Could someone explain to the less-enlightened of us what this GHOST concept is all about? What is 12 ball ghost? How does it work?

Much obliged!

Blackjack posted an explanation for 12 ball ghost.

Here is a progressive version of ghost play:

Start with 5-ball ghost. Rack for nine ball, break, and remove all but 5 balls. See if you can run out with ball in hand. If you do 5, try for 6 the next rack. If you fail at 5, drop back to 4. Your goal is to get up to running all nine (without removing any balls at the start) at least half the time.

Because you can choose which balls to remove, you can eliminate problems. This gets you to thinking about the run patterns, but it also makes it easier. To make it a little harder, remove only the lowest balls to get to your current number on each rack.

If you get to 9 consistently, rack all 15 balls.

Where I play, a points-based ghost is popular. Play 10 racks of 9-ball ghost and get one point for each ball and two for the nine. 100 is perfect. On the front table, 70 is pretty good.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... I thought I might have heard that you were supposed to clean the balls before their first use because of some coating on the balls that needed to be removed. Anyone know?...

I have heard of a brand new set having large amounts of throw. Maybe they got hot during shipping or some such. You would normally expect new balls with shiny surfaces to also be slippery and not throw as much.

I have had the experience of getting lots of throw after using car polish on a set of old balls. They looked great, but the throw seemed about double the usual.

 

[AZE]

Wow.. Rob you just love to stir it up, huh?

I don't know, for 100% sure, what causes skids - but the chalk theory seems VERY valid to me. That it could be a possible factor in why it happens. Maybe not ALL the time, but I could understand it, deffinetly.
I'm sure you all know the trick-shots where you get a bit of spit on the ball to 'throw' it in. Or put some chalk on a ball to 'throw' it in. Throwing a ball in, like that, is (IMO) what we call a ball 'skidding'. What's happeneing isn't increased friction, it is LESS friction! The cue gripping on the table's cloth, that's the friction, introducing a substance that decreases friction would well.. you know.
Put a drop of water on an object ball, then hit it to the pocket.... did ya see that? SKID!
I can understand how chalk-on-chalk would DRASTICALLY reduce friction.
I can, however, also see how there are other sercumstances where skids could occur. Particals on the table/ball (dust, hair) or even small fissures on the ball itself (or maybe table/ cloth imperfections) being some reasons. And maybe it might also be caused by a certain motion in your stroke.

I'm not saying that either one of your theorys are wrong, or are absolutly right. I believe that there are many factors involved, but the KEY factor (IMO) seems to be a loss of (or rather a decrease in) friction at some point.

ohh, and before I forget..
If any of you guys want to back the 12-ball ghost against my friend here... I'll be glad to take your....*ahem*.. I mean I'll be glad to BET with you.

 

[pete lafond]

Wow.. Rob you just love to stir it up, huh?

I don't know, for 100% sure, what causes skids - but the chalk theory seems VERY valid to me. That it could be a possible factor in why it happens. Maybe not ALL the time, but I could understand it, deffinetly.
I'm sure you all know the trick-shots where you get a bit of spit on the ball to 'throw' it in. Or put some chalk on a ball to 'throw' it in. Throwing a ball in, like that, is (IMO) what we call a ball 'skidding'. What's happeneing isn't increased friction, it is LESS friction! The cue gripping on the table's cloth, that's the friction, introducing a substance that decreases friction would well.. you know.
Put a drop of water on an object ball, then hit it to the pocket.... did ya see that? SKID!
I can understand how chalk-on-chalk would DRASTICALLY reduce friction.
I can, however, also see how there are other sercumstances where skids could occur. Particals on the table/ball (dust, hair) or even small fissures on the ball itself (or maybe table/ cloth imperfections) being some reasons. And maybe it might also be caused by a certain motion in your stroke.

I'm not saying that either one of your theorys are wrong, or are absolutly right. I believe that there are many factors involved, but the KEY factor (IMO) seems to be a loss of (or rather a decrease in) friction at some point.

ohh, and before I forget..
If any of you guys want to back the 12-ball ghost against my friend here... I'll be glad to take your....*ahem*.. I mean I'll be glad to BET with you.

Hollywood billiards is a nice room.

Anyway, I think THEONE made one of the most valid statements along with a key point by Cornerman. It is the oils and moisture that causes the skid and the chalk is only a secondary culprit. I would imagine intentionally putting chalk on a ball for a trick means to get it to stick. The oils from our hands and spit help that happen, thanks Cornerman.

Dry chalk or dirt should not cause any skidding, or only have little effect. It just will not stay on the balls and causes no excess friction unless maybe on the cloth beneath the balls.

 

[bud green]

I thought putting spit on a ball decreases friction and reduces throw and the likelihood of skid. One of the oldest proposition bets is putting two balls on a long rail and trying to make the head ball hug the rail into the pocket when the combo is hit with another ball. Without spit, the throw pushes the ball into the rail and it hits the end rail. With spit the throw is reduced and the ball will go in. R. Byrne discusses this in some of his books.

 

[pete lafond]

I thought putting spit on a ball decreases friction and reduces throw ...

It does, near zero throw. Think of it this way; If the roads partially wet and (without anti-lock) you will skid before you stop, dry-wet-dry-wet. The real trick with wetting the ball are when 2 balls are touching, not colliding.

The CB contacting the OB happens not like a swinging pendulum, but actually they have a moment of contact that is actually a little longer and the cloth is also a factor, though it is hard for the human eye to catch. It takes a moment for the OB to move. This is why low English, or draw, seldom experience a skid because it is pulling the CB away from the OB ( you can get a much better perspective of how fast a CB can come back to you by breaking a rack head on with draw - the rack has more mass so it is easier to see). Also, this is the same reason that side English "twists" or "turns" the OB and is not an English transfer rather an effect as a result of this prolonged contact and the cloth.


(edited) Yes if we were in space, the balls would react differently. Here on earth we have the weight of the balls on the felt that grounds the OB somewhat.

(edit 2 - to keep related stuff here) Keeping in mind also that draw is spinning away from the OB and almost picking it up making it as if the OB were momentarily lighter. Follow is spinning toward the OB almost making it heavier pushing forward through the cloth. This only occurs because of the presence of the felt.

 

[AZE]

Hollywood billiards is a nice room.

Anyway, I think THEONE made one of the most valid statements along with a key point by Cornerman. It is the oils and moisture that causes the skid and the chalk is only a secondary culprit. I would imagine intentionally putting chalk on a ball for a trick means to get it to stick. The oils from our hands and spit help that happen, thanks Cornerman.

Dry chalk or dirt should not cause any skidding, or only have little effect. It just will not stay on the balls and causes no excess friction unless maybe on the cloth beneath the balls.

Yeah, it's alright.

I don't think the theory behind the chalk causing skid is just simply the chalk on the ball, but rather a bit of chalk on a ball contacting a bit of chalk on the cloth. 2 bits contacting - it makes sense to me.
But I might be a complete idiot any way.