Obverse and reverse English, what is it exactly?

[asbani]

Hi, we have our own definitions in our country playing pool and today I had a debate with a guy about English and I came back home in a hurry to google and research, I didn't exactly get the answer for my question yet so I thought to post here.

I'll post what I know, and please do correct me if i'm wrong.


Thanks to "Accu-stats" I have an understanding about English.

<inside english> is when you cut the ball to your right and you put right hand spin on the cueball, thats inside english.

<outside english> is when you cut the ball to your right, and put left hand english, thats outside.


but what exactly is Obverse and reverse English in relation to inside & outside, I mean what are those when you have a cueball & object ball.

for my understanding is, inside english is the same as reverse english, if you have an object ball, I am not speaking of hitting cueball directly to a rail or anything.

and Obverse english is the same as outside English?


Please correct me if i'm wrong on anything of the above.

 

[henho]

I take it obverse is synonymous with reverse english. The term is not in common usage, and if the person you spoke to had strong opinions about the meaning he is most likely mistaken.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Reverse english is basically where the CB wants to reverse off the cushion. Let's say the CB is on the head spot and you are hitting it to one diamond passed the side pocket on the left so the cue ball will be going to the right after hitting the cushion towards the foot rail. In this case left english would be reverse english and right would be obverse or what is also referred to as running english. So reverse english is opposite the direction the CB wants to naturally take off the cushion.

Besides playing shape of course, reverse is also used to help kill the CB or slow it down off the rail.

I'm sure one of the instructors will come along and be able to better define it in words, but I know it when I see it. :grin:

 

[Baxter]

Inside/outside is in relation to your cut angle on the object ball. Reverse/running english is in relation to the cueballs angle into a cushion.

 

[Scott Lee]

This is not true. Inside and outside, vs running and reverse are the same thing, described differently. Angles on CB or OB don't mean anything in terms of describing english.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Inside/outside is in relation to your cut angle on the object ball. Reverse/running english is in relation to the cueballs angle into a cushion.

 

[victorl]

There are shots that are played with inside that become running english when the cb hits the rail and vice versa, so inside/outside and running/reverse are not always the same thing.

 

[3andstop]

Inside/outside is in relation to your cut angle on the object ball. Reverse/running english is in relation to the cueballs angle into a cushion.

Well, even if I'm wrong, I'll go along with your explanation of running and reverse english, and as far as inside english, its easiest to remember that inside english is the side english applied to the side of the CB, closest to the pocket you are shooting in.

 

[mbvl]

I agree with what the other posters said (except for Scott Lee, and I have no idea what he means). Inside/outside refer to CB/OB contact and running/ reverse have to do with CB/cushion contact. The term "obverse english" is one I had never heard before.

 

[Foolio]

This is my understanding:

Assuming that obverse is the antonym of reverse, reverse english is the same as inside english and running english (or obverse) is the same as outside english.

Reverse, or inside, because when shooting a cut shot with inside, you want the cue ball to "reverse" its natural direction off the rail.

Running english, or outside, is when you want the cue ball to "run" on the rails. Meaning it picks up speed and also changes the angle.

The only time (I could think of) when inside becomes running english is when you are shooting an almost straight in shot, and want to draw of the opposite rail. Then does it "run" of that rail.

 

[3andstop]

This is my understanding:

Assuming that obverse is the antonym of reverse, reverse english is the same as inside english and running english (or obverse) is the same as outside english.

Reverse, or inside, because when shooting a cut shot with inside, you want the cue ball to "reverse" its natural direction off the rail.

Running english, or outside, is when you want the cue ball to "run" on the rails. Meaning it picks up speed and also changes the angle.

The only time (I could think of) when inside becomes running english is when you are shooting an almost straight in shot, and want to draw of the opposite rail. Then does it "run" of that rail.

Inside english on this shot is left hand english, and left hand is also running english on this shot.

CueTable Help

 

[Mikjary]

Outside spin can be either reverse or running english depending on the angle into the rail. The same is true for inside spin. You can hit a shot high or low and have reverse or running english.

Best,
Mike

 

[Foolio]

Inside english on this shot is left hand english, and left hand is also running english on this shot.

CueTable Help

Correct! I can't believe I didn't think of my favorite shot, the high inside. I graciously bow my head :bow-down:

 

[Bob Jewett]

Inside/outside is in relation to your cut angle on the object ball. Reverse/running english is in relation to the cueballs angle into a cushion.

Exactly. I recently wrote a couple of columns about this and asked readers for interesting combinations of inside/outside+running/reverse+follow/draw, but no one took the challenge. For example, a common way to kill the cue ball when the object ball is near the cushion with outside follow reverse but sometimes you want to do it with inside, draw, reverse. Reverse can come from either outside or inside because the draw or follow will change how it approaches the cushion.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The only time (I could think of) when inside becomes running english is when you are shooting an almost straight in shot, and want to draw of the opposite rail. Then does it "run" of that rail.

Another example of inside running is on a spot shot when you play it with just enough draw to get to the side cushion and then go around the rails with running english.

 

[asbani]

thanks alot guys, after reading all of this and watching some videos I understand exactly what that means, I remember couple of times from an accu-stats videos few shots where efren reyes killed a cueball using inside english, a shot that has plenty of angel he used inside with low cueball to kill the shot, and Billy incardona said, he killed it with reverse , and the same shot happened in another video where the commentator also said killed it with reverse, they probably said reverse due to the cueball reaction off the rail as you guys mentioned here, and not because it has inside english at all.

anyways the reason I used obverse and reverse because of its similarity in the translation to our language of what we use here, thats all, if you literally use the dictionary to translate those two words, it is exactly what we use to identify , left hand english, and right hand english to shots in my country, but it came to shock for me yesterday that some people use these terms , differently, it was unbelievable to me, that some people refer to the named words to whatever they want. sorry to bother you with the subject but imagine this.

you go to a poolhall, where everybodies understanding of inside/outside english is the exact opposite of what the world knows, it probably started for them ages ago, when they started coming to that particular poolhall, an example on the 3andstop's photo above on the 2ball, you tell that poolhall guys, (Hey guys, left hand english here is inside english and everybody knows that, the world know it)
and they all as a unit laugh, and tell you, dude, Left hand english is outside english, and if you play it right hand, thats inside english, you got it wrong dude)

anyways, that exactly what happened, they refer to english the opposite way and so used to it, and it stuck with them many years that they believe it to be true.

thats all, thanks folks.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Inside english on this shot is left hand english, and left hand is also running english on this shot.

CueTable Help

True, if you are hitting it with follow. If you hit the shot with low and draw it into the rail, things change. Then right english is running english and left english is reverse.

 

[Masayoshi]

This is not true. Inside and outside, vs running and reverse are the same thing, described differently. Angles on CB or OB don't mean anything in terms of describing english.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Can you explain yourself please? I have never heard those terms used differently that what he described and am quite certain (as are other people in this thread) that his description is spot on.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Here is a shot in which the english is both reverse (on the first cushion) and running on the second and third. This was one of the example shots that Lou Butera illustrated in video clips in the original version of the PC game "Virtual Pool." It is shot with a lot of left (inside) english and no draw or follow.


This sort of shot is much more common on carom tables and it was one of Willie Hoppe's key shots for 3-cushion billiards in "Billiards As It Should Be Played." Here is how he presented it:

 

[JoeyA]

JoeyA wishes he had a second language.

Hi, we have our own definitions in our country playing pool and today I had a debate with a guy about English and I came back home in a hurry to google and research, I didn't exactly get the answer for my question yet so I thought to post here.

I'll post what I know, and please do correct me if i'm wrong.


Thanks to "Accu-stats" I have an understanding about English.

<inside english> is when you cut the ball to your right and you put right hand spin on the cueball, thats inside english.

<outside english> is when you cut the ball to your right, and put left hand english, thats outside.


but what exactly is Obverse and reverse English in relation to inside & outside, I mean what are those when you have a cueball & object ball.

for my understanding is, inside english is the same as reverse english, if you have an object ball, I am not speaking of hitting cueball directly to a rail or anything.

and Obverse english is the same as outside English?


Please correct me if i'm wrong on anything of the above.

Asbani,

In addition to your good examples of inside and outside English:

Inside English can also be when you are cutting the object ball to your left and you hit the cue ball on the left side of the vertical axis of the cue ball which would be Left English, Low Left or High Left.

Outside English can also be when you are cutting the object ball to your left and you hit the cue ball on the right side of the vertical axis of the cue ball which would be Right English, Low Right or High Right.