Old School Role-Out v/s.Texas Express 9 ball
- Thread starter Walt Frazier
- Start date
i very much enjoyed shoot-out 9-ball (that's what we called it around here).
imo it made you think a lot more while you played.
the strategy was a little different as safes most times were table safes giving your opponent a look at the ball but with a difficult shot so if or when he missed you would have a shot.
you also learned to play more shots by taking some lower percentage shots. and excepting pushes not because you think YOU can make it, but because you think you opponent might be able to.
M.C.
imo it made you think a lot more while you played.
the strategy was a little different as safes most times were table safes giving your opponent a look at the ball but with a difficult shot so if or when he missed you would have a shot.
you also learned to play more shots by taking some lower percentage shots. and excepting pushes not because you think YOU can make it, but because you think you opponent might be able to.
M.C.
bigskyjake said:
If you don't like the shot you can pushout, then the next player can shoot or direct you to. Seems kinda silly to me.
Well, both 14.1 and 1P do have that option: a safety. In those games the player has many balls he can shoot at. In 9-ball there is only one. In other words, in the full rack games, it's much less likely to get unintentionally but lethally hooked. As Buddy Hall says about 1P, "There's more play".pdcue said:
Doc
gulfportdoc said:
No disrespect Doc, but I think you missed my point.
It's all about the pressure - the consequence of not getting
position.
In the other games, if you fail to get position, then lag a 'foul' roll out.
I am NOT required to shoot at the ball you ducked on.
That is the problem
Dale
gulfportdoc said:I haven't seen too many 15 minute races to 11...But there's no question that Texas Express sped up the games. Of course there would be no reason to play races to 11 with shoot-out rules.
The downside of the new rules was that it took 9-ball from a game of skill, and made it a game of chance. The nice part about roll-out is that a player never has to suffer an accidental hook by his opponent having missed a shot. Or for that matter, accidently leaving himself hooked.
I think a combination of the rules could be thought up to nullify some of the dumb luck. But unfortunately the Genie has been let out of the bottle, and I see no general interest in making 9-ball rules more skillful...
Doc
Doc, Read my post again. I said it cut down the length of the match by 15-30 minutes. Sorry for the confusion.
dabarbr said:
Barber,
Roll Out (or Push Out) pool was two fouls in a row by the same player. The Push was the first foul.
jay helfert said:
That was how I taught also, cue ball in the kitchen, spot balls etc etc.
Funny, we did not call it Push-out 9 Ball, it was just simply 9 Ball, those were the rules and everyone played that way, til around 1985 or 1986, I went to see Buddy Hall play in a tournament and it was "Texas Express rules" me and my buddies were all exited about a new way to play LOL.
Enter the "Captain Hook" era.
pdcue said:
Well, how about if your opponent shoots and misses by a mile. He didn't get position, but you are now stuck with no shot. Where's the justice in that? With the push out, there are a whole lot of things to consider. If I push, will he shoot or give it back, do I push to a shot or to a safe? If I do either, what will my opponent do? One of the best players I ever knew said he always pushed to a safe. And, providing there was no foul before hand, you never had to push in the first place. You always had the option of shooting for the "on" ball, if you wanted. I fail to understand how anyone who's played both ways would rather play one-foul-bih-anywhere.
Here's a link to my post on rsb:http://groups.google.com/group/alt....&q=Push+Out+Nine+Ball&rnum=3#9a5b4ca02f8caa75
Keep in mind, I was a bit annoyed when I wrote it.
Keep in mind, I was a bit annoyed when I wrote it.
Pushout said:
I nearly almost played my push out for a safe. I say nearly because if I had an easy opponant I pushed out or the shot.
Having said that, I seem to recall that two fouls by the same man meant that if he pushed out and I felt that he might go for the shot and I didn't want him to, that I would re-push to a position that would require a safe, forcing him to play safe or give it back to me. At this point we were both on one foul each, whoever shot next must make a legal hit or it's their second foul.
This is much different than any two fouls in a row.
If he pushed to a place that I knew he would have to play safe I would let him shoot again no matter how easy it was to execute. Many mistakes are made in trying to do an easy safe. This will make a big difference in the long run.
Grady's Rules
Grady Mathews had the right idea when he adopted his set of rules. It takes all the luck out of the game. I believe the rules are still posted on his web site for both 9-ball and One Pocket.
Lunchmoney
Grady Mathews had the right idea when he adopted his set of rules. It takes all the luck out of the game. I believe the rules are still posted on his web site for both 9-ball and One Pocket.
Lunchmoney
Oops...
Doc
Right you are, Jay. On both counts.jay helfert said:
Doc
I see your point, Dale. You believe if a guy misses position on his next shot, then he must suffer the consequences. My main point is that it's frustrating to see a guy miss a shot, but then get a lucky hook that the opponent is then stuck with-- through no action of his own. In other words, the player who screwed up gets rewarded.pdcue said:
These circumstances might be addressed by allowing a roll-out only at the first shot of each player's turn. If a player shoots, then hooks himself, then he's stuck with it.
Doc
I played more than my share of both of these versions of nine ball, and I do not concur with most in this thread. I also do not agree that rollout favored the better player, only the better shotmaker.
Texas Express makes defense, kicking, ducking and two-way shots a big part of the game's skill, and I feel that the strategy is far more interesting in Texas Express than in rollout. The truth is that most bad positions you face in Texas Express arise because of opponent's safety play, two-way shots, or your own errors in position play --- not, as some suggest, fluke safeties of your opponent.
One problem I always had with rollout is that you pay a lesser penalty for position poorly played. To me, nothing is more sacred than position play. Texas Express inflcits maximum penalty on you by making you jump, masse or kick when you hook yourself, and that's as it should be.
I sure hope rollout is gone for good. As both a player and a fan, I think it far inferior to Texas Express nine ball.
Texas Express makes defense, kicking, ducking and two-way shots a big part of the game's skill, and I feel that the strategy is far more interesting in Texas Express than in rollout. The truth is that most bad positions you face in Texas Express arise because of opponent's safety play, two-way shots, or your own errors in position play --- not, as some suggest, fluke safeties of your opponent.
One problem I always had with rollout is that you pay a lesser penalty for position poorly played. To me, nothing is more sacred than position play. Texas Express inflcits maximum penalty on you by making you jump, masse or kick when you hook yourself, and that's as it should be.
I sure hope rollout is gone for good. As both a player and a fan, I think it far inferior to Texas Express nine ball.
sjm said:
You have a great point there. In today's rules, the results of playing a lock-up saftey is your opponent is locked-uo. By the old rules, all that saftey gets you is the chance to contemplate whether you want to shoot the results of your opponent's push-out.
I agree with PDCue. We called it roll-out, and didn't play it. We'd rather play snooker. Roll-out rules had no defense at all. One foul ball in hand nine ball to me is far superior and still favors the offensive shooter. Nine-ball may not be anywhere now, but it would be worse with the old rules. How many great kick-safes from Efren would we miss?gulfportdoc said:
unknownpro
Roll-Out for the straight shooter.
Now you're cookin' Walt. I knew you still had some SWISH left in you.
I had a STRAIGHT SHOOTER who I gamble with regularly tell me that while he couldn't beat me using TExas Express rules he would "FLAT OUT ROB" me playing Roll-Out. I declined to play him initially because he is a strong shot maker then I realized I don't shoot too badly either......... I got lucky and now he just wants to be friends.
JoeyA
Walt Frazier said:Many players differ in opinion as to which style was best for pool gambling..Most of the old timers.. even in todays times.. would much rather play roll out than Texas Express style 9b..
This is a question for Jay or Freddie:In Richie Florence's Tournaments in the 80's (at the stardust?) was it roll out 9ball played in them?..I can't recall...
One more question..I've always heard talk about Denny Searcy but never saw him play..was he THAT good or what?
Now you're cookin' Walt. I knew you still had some SWISH left in you.
I had a STRAIGHT SHOOTER who I gamble with regularly tell me that while he couldn't beat me using TExas Express rules he would "FLAT OUT ROB" me playing Roll-Out. I declined to play him initially because he is a strong shot maker then I realized I don't shoot too badly either......... I got lucky and now he just wants to be friends.
JoeyA
Push-out is the only way to match up playing 9 ball. If it's a race and you follow a lucky hook from a bad shot, then you don't get that game back if you don't recover. If it's playing ahead, it's less costly only if it's not at the wrong time in the session. One shot foul is doubly brutal on a bar table, since it will happen more often due to the more confined space. Of course, if you're playing someone who can't run 4 balls, one-shot foul will not cost as much, but why gamble on the rolls if you don't have to playing anybody.
I witnessed an interesting strategic use of push-out once when Eugene Browning would push out behind the edge of a ball, always get it back, make the jump shot and run out. He did this several times. Now that was brutal if you were the other guy.
I witnessed an interesting strategic use of push-out once when Eugene Browning would push out behind the edge of a ball, always get it back, make the jump shot and run out. He did this several times. Now that was brutal if you were the other guy.