Older cues play better?

I had a 1986 Joss as a player for 5 or 6 years. Later I tried a new Joss and found the taper was stiffer and played much better.

Each cue is different, you must hit with them and make your own choices.

Old wood can be gold or firewood.
 
Darwin theory

I see a lot of people always saying that older Joss and Schons (others also)play better then the new ones. Is that because the wood has aged for 15 or 20 years? Or were they made better back then?

I think that the old cues that SURVIVED hit better
There was lots of firewood back then.
And I think PLAYING with a cue makes it better...
..the oils from your bridge hand condition the shaft.

Think it's a shame that many great cues are wall hangers
Great cues should be played with.
 
Darwin theory

I see a lot of people always saying that older Joss and Schons (others also)play better then the new ones. Is that because the wood has aged for 15 or 20 years? Or were they made better back then?

Had a server problem and posted twice.

I can add that Allen Gilbert didn't like wood getting older and stronger.
He used to retire shafts 'cause he liked the softer and weaker hit of new wood.
Allen Gilbert,as many will know,was several times American 3-cushion champion.
 
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It is not so much the cue as it is the wood, it is kinda like people wood matures with age, the older the wood ( if it has been stored correctly ) the more solid the hit of the cue.

I build cues from Brunswick House Blanks that are 80 to 100 years old. The is much more stable ( very little to no movement during construction) and the cues have a very solid hit.

JIMO

Good Point.... I'm partial to my Spain, the shaft is dead straight after 33 years and just hits and sounds great. Very stiff shaft. I like my Schuler too (also very stiff) but still go back to my Spain.

I just bought a Carmeli with Davis blank, and thus I"m trying a 'new' cue but with a little historical value/quality due to the Davis blank....the best of both worlds maybe?? I hope so....should have it this week. I really hope it hits good and I can semi-retire the Spain.....
 
It is a simple rule; nothing is as good as it was back in the day:

My father reminds of this rule everyday with respect to:

Cars
Tools
Boats
Fishing Rods
Dinner Plates
Musical Instruments
Televisions
Light Bulbs
Furniture

Jeans
Women
et al.

I feel bad for my future children, I can't imagine the kind of utter crap they are going to be working with.

I'll have to disagree that the highlighted red examples are not better today. TELEVISIONS?! Try playing Call of Duty on a 50"+ 1080p for a while then switch to an old tube set and tell me the new one is not 1000x better. :D
 
Not so, the wood may not be aged as well today, especially shaft wood. As has been mentioned already, it's getting harder to find real good wood. Cues today may be different but not necessarily better. Some may be, but not all, by any means.
The older Joss and Schons were made by hand and are not today. There is a difference between mass produced and hand built, no matter that some people think differently. I've played with both and don't like either of mass produced ones.

I'm in the woods often, harvesting trees. Specifically, I harvest sugar maples for the sole purpose of shaft wood. I can tell you without a doubt that the wood now isn't any different than wood of yesteryear. The difference is the way it's harvested & processed. The best trees aren't commercially cut for lumber, which means the wood doesn't get filtered into the cue world. Younger trees are targeted for white, defect free wood. That's why I cut my own. I don't have to worry about where my shafts come from because I cut the tree.

As for aging, that's simply untrue. If the wood is dried PROPERLY then it'll be as good right out of the gate as it ever will be. The problem is that wood gets used that isn't sufficiently dried. The wetter it is, the more elastic & plastic it is. Over time it slowly dries to completion & gets harder and stiffer as it happens. This is the phenomena that folks recognize as "seasoning" or "aging". Fact is it's just drying.

The lumber industry standard for drying wood is 6%. 6% moisture is the commonly accepted point at which furniture & cabinets can be made of wood without worry of it rapidly shrinking & pulling apart at glue seams. But it's still not truly dry and will indeed shrink over time. The shrinkage will be minimal & slow but it will happen. It just won't happen enough to cause the furniture, floors, & cabinets to come apart. For some reason, this 6% standard has become the standard in cues as well. And IMO, it's inappropriate. It's not good enough. It's needs to be 4% or lower before it's ever touched by a cue maker. Otherwise, the cue is too soft, too elastic, too tonally dampened. And it will get better with age.....eventually. But it could be better if it's dried properly right out of the gate.

I have done a LOT of research, consulting, and learning in this subject the last few years. It's something I have great interest in & want to get right. My findings have been polar opposite of the commonly held myths & beliefs in cue making. There's much more to it, including cut cycles & so on. But for "aging", it's BS. It's not the aging that changes the wood. It's the drying over time. And the wood isn't different or worse now than before, just that the wood of yesteryear isn't commercially available like it used to be. Used to be maple was considered a blonde, light brown wood. Now it's considered a white wood. Reason being is industry demands. The trend has moved to liking white wood & the colorful stuff is rejected as pallet wood. Unfortunately the cue industry pales in comparison to the general lumber industry so we have no control or pull to get what we really want. We get what's available. What's available is intended for a completely different industry than cues. Therefore, I said screw it & I do it all myself. Costs a lot more but I get what I want & know it's exactly what is right for my cues.

I log, mill, & dry the lumber myself. I'd gladly buy it instead if somebody offered it at honest rates, but nobody does. Any cue maker would gladly pay for it but it's virtually unavailable. I'm young, strong, & lucky to have ties to the timber industry. I am in the position & am able to do the lumberjack work. Most builders are not. So before I get too old, i'm loading up a lifetime's worth of wood right now. Saws, logging equipment, sawmills, kiln, etc. isn't tooling you expect to see at a cue maker's shop. But for me it's critical. And i'll likely share with others once I have my own stock pile. I may even get in to that business if the mood strikes. Probably not. I enjoy it too much.

Anyway, my point is that there's science to the myth of older cues playing better. And I have been a few years studying that science. It's not the commonly believed reasons. It's much simpler & logical than that. But with that knowledge came the realization that in order to get out of that rut, something drastic has to be done. Cue making doesn't have enough demand in the lumber industry to change how wood is processed from the loggers to the board. So if you want something done a certain way, do it yourself. It sucks cue makers don't have access to the maple we need. It used to be common. But it's still maple & if cue makers want things to be like they were, then they will have to take on some of the responsibility themselves instead just complaining about it.

Sorry for the long post. I just see this topic come up from time to time & finally am at a point where I understand the phenomena. Thought i'd share my thoughts. Still got lots to learn.
 
I'm in the woods often, harvesting trees. Specifically, I harvest sugar maples for the sole purpose of shaft wood. I can tell you without a doubt that the wood now isn't any different than wood of yesteryear. The difference is the way it's harvested & processed. The best trees aren't commercially cut for lumber, which means the wood doesn't get filtered into the cue world. Younger trees are targeted for white, defect free wood. That's why I cut my own. I don't have to worry about where my shafts come from because I cut the tree.

As for aging, that's simply untrue. If the wood is dried PROPERLY then it'll be as good right out of the gate as it ever will be. The problem is that wood gets used that isn't sufficiently dried. The wetter it is, the more elastic & plastic it is. Over time it slowly dries to completion & gets harder and stiffer as it happens. This is the phenomena that folks recognize as "seasoning" or "aging". Fact is it's just drying.

The lumber industry standard for drying wood is 6%. 6% moisture is the commonly accepted point at which furniture & cabinets can be made of wood without worry of it rapidly shrinking & pulling apart at glue seams. But it's still not truly dry and will indeed shrink over time. The shrinkage will be minimal & slow but it will happen. It just won't happen enough to cause the furniture, floors, & cabinets to come apart. For some reason, this 6% standard has become the standard in cues as well. And IMO, it's inappropriate. It's not good enough. It's needs to be 4% or lower before it's ever touched by a cue maker. Otherwise, the cue is too soft, too elastic, too tonally dampened. And it will get better with age.....eventually. But it could be better if it's dried properly right out of the gate.

I have done a LOT of research, consulting, and learning in this subject the last few years. It's something I have great interest in & want to get right. My findings have been polar opposite of the commonly held myths & beliefs in cue making. There's much more to it, including cut cycles & so on. But for "aging", it's BS. It's not the aging that changes the wood. It's the drying over time. And the wood isn't different or worse now than before, just that the wood of yesteryear isn't commercially available like it used to be. Used to be maple was considered a blonde, light brown wood. Now it's considered a white wood. Reason being is industry demands. The trend has moved to liking white wood & the colorful stuff is rejected as pallet wood. Unfortunately the cue industry pales in comparison to the general lumber industry so we have no control or pull to get what we really want. We get what's available. What's available is intended for a completely different industry than cues. Therefore, I said screw it & I do it all myself. Costs a lot more but I get what I want & know it's exactly what is right for my cues.

I log, mill, & dry the lumber myself. I'd gladly buy it instead if somebody offered it at honest rates, but nobody does. Any cue maker would gladly pay for it but it's virtually unavailable. I'm young, strong, & lucky to have ties to the timber industry. I am in the position & am able to do the lumberjack work. Most builders are not. So before I get too old, i'm loading up a lifetime's worth of wood right now. Saws, logging equipment, sawmills, kiln, etc. isn't tooling you expect to see at a cue maker's shop. But for me it's critical. And i'll likely share with others once I have my own stock pile. I may even get in to that business if the mood strikes. Probably not. I enjoy it too much.

Anyway, my point is that there's science to the myth of older cues playing better. And I have been a few years studying that science. It's not the commonly believed reasons. It's much simpler & logical than that. But with that knowledge came the realization that in order to get out of that rut, something drastic has to be done. Cue making doesn't have enough demand in the lumber industry to change how wood is processed from the loggers to the board. So if you want something done a certain way, do it yourself. It sucks cue makers don't have access to the maple we need. It used to be common. But it's still maple & if cue makers want things to be like they were, then they will have to take on some of the responsibility themselves instead just complaining about it.

Sorry for the long post. I just see this topic come up from time to time & finally am at a point where I understand the phenomena. Thought i'd share my thoughts. Still got lots to learn.



Thanks for the information, I appreciate your time and thoughts on this subject very very much.

Respectfully
 
The perception is that the old Schon cues play better than the new ones.
Same with Joss, Meucci, McDermott, and Viking.
The old ones are kind of cool and they play great.
Since I have no interest in the new ones I wouldn't know how they play,
but the perception is based on the wood, and a more mass produced cue.
I have a couple of new Schon shafts i'll try out, but even though they
don't look as good as the old Schon shafts, i'm sure they're fine.

It doesn't really matter as long as your cue isn't deemed irrelevant.
Yesterday at the pool hall the OP, myself and another player that we'll call Doug, were playing nineball,
and Doug told MM that his modified Pechauer has a "vague" hit.
At that point measureman's arm totally fell off, he couldn't make a ball, and he left muttering something about his wife and buying another cue.
About 30-minutes later my phone rings and it's measureman's wife wanting to speak with Doug.
Apparently the OP was inconsolable.
She didn't appreciate it, they argued for a while, and she needs to face reality.
There will be 3-6 months of cue shopping, like it or not.
It's OK Bruce, no need to be so melancholy, maybe it was the tip.
 
The perception is that the old Schon cues play better than the new ones.
Same with Joss, Meucci, McDermott, and Viking.
The old ones are kind of cool and they play great.
Since I have no interest in the new ones I wouldn't know how they play,
but the perception is based on the wood, and a more mass produced cue.
I have a couple of new Schon shafts i'll try out, but even though they
don't look as good as the old Schon shafts, i'm sure they're fine.

It doesn't really matter as long as your cue isn't deemed irrelevant.
Yesterday at the pool hall the OP, myself and another player that we'll call Doug, were playing nineball,
and Doug told MM that his modified Pechauer has a "vague" hit.
At that point measureman's arm totally fell off, he couldn't make a ball, and he left muttering something about his wife and buying another cue.
About 30-minutes later my phone rings and it's measureman's wife wanting to speak with Doug.
Apparently the OP was inconsolable.
She didn't appreciate it, they argued for a while, and she needs to face reality.
There will be 3-6 months of cue shopping, like it or not.
It's OK Bruce, no need to be so melancholy, maybe it was the tip.

This my have been your finest post Ted,and very truthful.
I'm a bit better now because today the player we will call "Doug" and I played several hours of 9 ball. I brought along the Lucasi and he thought it hit better then the vague hitting Pechauer. Now he was either trying to be nice or his perception of hit is faulty. Personalty I think he wants no part of my wife and I can't blame him for that. He did pull out a McFadden sneaky made from a Scemekle blank that hit lights out, maybe a bit better then the McFadden Cocobolo cue. You two are killing me with the great hitting cues you keep bringing to the room.
 
Awesome Post qbilder

And some wonder why it takes so long to get a custom cue from a Master. Your story is just the beginning. Then the wood has to get worked.
 
I see a lot of people always saying that older Joss and Schons (others also)play better then the new ones. Is that because the wood has aged for 15 or 20 years? Or were they made better back then?

Older Schons had the right people in their quality control department.
The two founders.
Let's put it this way, back then when the two founders were part of the quality control department, do you think they check the woods themselves ?
I would think so. The difference between a great hitting cue and bad one could be the wood in the handle .

Or an overdrilled hole.
 
I'm in the woods often, harvesting trees. Specifically, I harvest sugar maples for the sole purpose of shaft wood. I can tell you without a doubt that the wood now isn't any different than wood of yesteryear. The difference is the way it's harvested & processed. The best trees aren't commercially cut for lumber, which means the wood doesn't get filtered into the cue world. Younger trees are targeted for white, defect free wood. That's why I cut my own. I don't have to worry about where my shafts come from because I cut the tree.

As for aging, that's simply untrue. If the wood is dried PROPERLY then it'll be as good right out of the gate as it ever will be. The problem is that wood gets used that isn't sufficiently dried. The wetter it is, the more elastic & plastic it is. Over time it slowly dries to completion & gets harder and stiffer as it happens. This is the phenomena that folks recognize as "seasoning" or "aging". Fact is it's just drying.

The lumber industry standard for drying wood is 6%. 6% moisture is the commonly accepted point at which furniture & cabinets can be made of wood without worry of it rapidly shrinking & pulling apart at glue seams. But it's still not truly dry and will indeed shrink over time. The shrinkage will be minimal & slow but it will happen. It just won't happen enough to cause the furniture, floors, & cabinets to come apart. For some reason, this 6% standard has become the standard in cues as well. And IMO, it's inappropriate. It's not good enough. It's needs to be 4% or lower before it's ever touched by a cue maker. Otherwise, the cue is too soft, too elastic, too tonally dampened. And it will get better with age.....eventually. But it could be better if it's dried properly right out of the gate.

I have done a LOT of research, consulting, and learning in this subject the last few years. It's something I have great interest in & want to get right. My findings have been polar opposite of the commonly held myths & beliefs in cue making. There's much more to it, including cut cycles & so on. But for "aging", it's BS. It's not the aging that changes the wood. It's the drying over time. And the wood isn't different or worse now than before, just that the wood of yesteryear isn't commercially available like it used to be. Used to be maple was considered a blonde, light brown wood. Now it's considered a white wood. Reason being is industry demands. The trend has moved to liking white wood & the colorful stuff is rejected as pallet wood. Unfortunately the cue industry pales in comparison to the general lumber industry so we have no control or pull to get what we really want. We get what's available. What's available is intended for a completely different industry than cues. Therefore, I said screw it & I do it all myself. Costs a lot more but I get what I want & know it's exactly what is right for my cues.

I log, mill, & dry the lumber myself. I'd gladly buy it instead if somebody offered it at honest rates, but nobody does. Any cue maker would gladly pay for it but it's virtually unavailable. I'm young, strong, & lucky to have ties to the timber industry. I am in the position & am able to do the lumberjack work. Most builders are not. So before I get too old, i'm loading up a lifetime's worth of wood right now. Saws, logging equipment, sawmills, kiln, etc. isn't tooling you expect to see at a cue maker's shop. But for me it's critical. And i'll likely share with others once I have my own stock pile. I may even get in to that business if the mood strikes. Probably not. I enjoy it too much.

Anyway, my point is that there's science to the myth of older cues playing better. And I have been a few years studying that science. It's not the commonly believed reasons. It's much simpler & logical than that. But with that knowledge came the realization that in order to get out of that rut, something drastic has to be done. Cue making doesn't have enough demand in the lumber industry to change how wood is processed from the loggers to the board. So if you want something done a certain way, do it yourself. It sucks cue makers don't have access to the maple we need. It used to be common. But it's still maple & if cue makers want things to be like they were, then they will have to take on some of the responsibility themselves instead just complaining about it.

Sorry for the long post. I just see this topic come up from time to time & finally am at a point where I understand the phenomena. Thought i'd share my thoughts. Still got lots to learn.

Some of your points are correct but you can't tell me that a 200 year old maple tree that has been cut, and now drying for the past 30 years isn't better then a 50 year old tree. How about growth rings? Another point is why is a log in a lake that has been absorbing water for 30 years now so desirable? Could it be because it has been seasoned and when dried properly it will make for a fine shaft? Besides build which as far as i'm concerned only a few CMs out there put out consistent cues. I have never played with one of your cues so i can't be a judge of them.
Without saying which CMs out there that have great reputations whose cues i have played with, the shaft wood has a lot to be desired. A shaft should not be dinged by putting it into a wall mount. To me this wood has not been seasoned and or dried, whichever word you care to use correctly.
 
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