one piece cores

I know of one cue maker that cores with epoxy. He cuts the core in a spline configuration with 3 length wise groves the full length. Maybe he does that to get glue into the groves and avoid the void.

Kim
 
I know of one cue maker that cores with epoxy. He cuts the core in a spline configuration with 3 length wise groves the full length. Maybe he does that to get glue into the groves and avoid the void.

Kim

Hi Kim,

I would think that he may be creating more surface areas for voids to form and hide out at. Can't clamp a groove inside an oversized cylinder. With expansion glue and filed keyway grooves, you and I know we can sleep at night.

Rick
 
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Hi Kim,

I would think that he may be creating more surface areas for voids to form and hide out at. Can't clamp a groove inside an oversized cylinder. With expansion glue and filed keyway grooves, you and I know we can sleep at night.

Rick

You're right...... I think his theory was that if you have a wad of glue ahead of the core as it is twisted in that the grooves would fill with glue....

just a thought

Kim
 
As Steve said, this is just my opinion. But keep in mind that I've probably glued up more pieces and gone through more glues in the last several years than most have in a lifetime.

All the adhesives mentioned have their uses. I would break it down like this:

PVA's, TiteBond, Aliphatic resins, etc.
These glues typically have lots of water in them. That's how they work, the water wicks into the wood carrying the resin with it. The resin stays there as the moisture if wicked further away from the glue joint and sets strong. These glues are very strong in a tight fitting joint. One of the best, but they bring a lot of water to the party.

Polyurethanes
Like the PVA's etc., these glues are extremely strong in a tight fitting joint. Much stronger than the wood itself. However, they don't do well with a loose joint. The foam has no adhesive or structural qualities. Actually, it only foams with air, so there isn't any foam in the tight glue joints anyway. We use this to glue the sections together in our cue shafts and it works fantastic. You wouldn't want to see my glue bill for polyurethane! It is hard to work with in quantities. You can't use applicator machines because it sets up with air contact and once it sets, just throw the machine away. You aint gettin it clean.

Epoxies
Of course, epoxies are excellent adhesives. They do, however, need a film thickness for the strongest bonds. They, accordingly, don't do as well in really tight fitting joints. We would never be able to get our shafts to stay together with epoxy. We squeeze the joints way too tight. No build thickness, so no strength. Most of the joints we use in cues though do have clearances so epoxy is a very good choice.



To sum it up, I don't like water based glues like the PVA's. I work to hard to keep EMC where I want it, and it's not at 30%! Which is where your wood will go for a while if you saturate it with PVA's. For tight close intimate joints, I like polyurethane glues. They don't add moisture to the equation, and they are extremely strong in a tight clamped joint. For looser fitting joints, or where there is some clearance, I like epoxies. The polyurethanes wood not have strength here, and the epoxies excel here.

If mixing epoxies is time consuming, get yourself a "Sticky Stuff Dispenser". It's one of the best investments I've made.

Try using denatured alcohol to clean things up when using polyurethane. As long as it hasn't setup completely, DA will slowly break it down so you can wipe it off. We have a few gallon cans with DA in them where we keep some of our tools that get covered with polyurethane.

Just my opinions
 
Good post Royce !
I guess you have run through a couple of gallons of glue... Did you use GG / Poly on the old fullcored cue series ?
K
 
Kent

Yes, I have run through a little glue. Lol!

I can honestly say that I don't use Gorilla Glue on anything, but I do use a commercial polyurethane for various things.

Beyond that, I think I'll just refer back to my original post. What works for me may not work for others. I'd rather just provide my experiences and opinions and let that feed those who wish to use it.

Who knows, I may change my opinions tomorrow!
 
I understand Royce.
There is nothing called Gorilla Glue over here so I have used the industrial version of Polyurethane for cores.
Thanks
K
 
I know of one cue maker that cores with epoxy. He cuts the core in a spline configuration with 3 length wise groves the full length. Maybe he does that to get glue into the groves and avoid the void.

Kim

Does he run a plunger down the cylinder first to spread epoxy. And wet the dowel and let the two pieces absorb epoxy ? Epoxy is better applied on two surfaces before clamping. Unlike PU glue.

I'd like to argue PU glue is better but I don't know everyone's process.
 
How many full length cores (29 inches) have you actually done using cascamite or epoxy??

Kim


EDIT: didn't think so

Congratulations, your edit is correct. Give yourself a pat on the back. :rolleyes:

However, I might add that it does not take a genius to read my posts and come to the conclusion that I was not speaking as a 'serial corer'.

I offered my knowledge/opinion/experience of different glues, used specifically in cue making over many years, and was relating to how I have found them to work, and stand up over time.

I explained reasons why I would choose epoxy or cascamite for the purpose of coring, and those reasons are based on cold hard facts of how I know the glues work.

You are welcome to disagree with my opinion, but I'll repeat it for anyone who cares to listen:

Cascamite or epoxy would be my personal choice for the purpose of coring because they set rock hard and will transmit vibration better.

Polyurethane works perfectly well, and is certainly the easiest. The bond strength, for the purpose of coring, is more than enough. But it is the way it actually works that, in my opinion, makes it slightly inferior to either of the above for this particular application.

I will add though, that we are talking very small differences. Possibly ones which would never be noticed.

So, does any of this matter? Probably not.

But it appears a lot of wannabes on here would like to make great cues, and it's the little things that matter when making great cues. So maybe, just maybe, it does matter.
 
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Does he run a plunger down the cylinder first to spread epoxy. And wet the dowel and let the two pieces absorb epoxy ? Epoxy is better applied on two surfaces before clamping. Unlike PU glue.

I'd like to argue PU glue is better but I don't know everyone's process.

I never saw the actual procedure. He showed me the cores with the splines cut in and the end of a butt with the core installed.

Kim
 
Congratulations, your edit is correct. Give yourself a pat on the back. :rolleyes:

However, I might add that it does not take a genius to read my posts and come to the conclusion that I was not speaking as a 'serial corer'.

I offered my knowledge/opinion/experience of different glues, used specifically in cue making over many years, and was relating to how I have found them to work, and stand up over time.

I explained reasons why I would choose epoxy or cascamite for the purpose of coring, and those reasons are based on cold hard facts of how I know the glues work.

You are welcome to disagree with my opinion, but I'll repeat it for anyone who cares to listen:

Cascamite or epoxy would be my personal choice for the purpose of coring because they set rock hard and will transmit vibration better.

Polyurethane works perfectly well, and is certainly the easiest. The bond strength, for the purpose of coring, is more than enough. But it is the way it actually works that, in my opinion, makes it slightly inferior to either of the above for this particular application.

I will add though, that we are talking very small differences. Possibly ones which would never be noticed.

So, does any of this matter? Probably not.

But it appears a lot of wannabes on here would like to make great cues, and it's the little things that matter when making great cues. So maybe, just maybe, it does matter.


I have learned over the years to never to tell people the best way to do things if I have never actually done it myself.

I learned this when I was a technical trainer for a large refrigeration company. I demonstrated a procedure in front of a class of 40 mechanics that I "supposed should work this way." Well needless to say..... it was a big flop because I didn't bother to do it myself before hand. I looked like a fool and I deserved it.

I never did that again.

My experience with other glues has taught me a few things. I tried to glue up a ring billet with titebond II and ended up throwing the whole sticky mess in the trash. Water based glue thickens fast as the moisture evaporates and also soaks into the objects being glued.

I test glued a dowel in a piece with epoxy and I was very careful to slide and twist as I was assembling it. When I cut it apart later, there were small voids here and there. I didn't think that was good.

I did up a test using GG and when I cut it apart the glue joint was continuous and solid. There were no voids and there was no foam in the joint. Good stuff.


Maybe I came off as a little ruff but please try it your self before saying that epoxy or cascamite is good to use for coring. Maybe do up some samples, cut them apart and show us some pictures.

Kim
 
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Does he run a plunger down the cylinder first to spread epoxy. And wet the dowel and let the two pieces absorb epoxy ? Epoxy is better applied on two surfaces before clamping. Unlike PU glue.

I'd like to argue PU glue is better but I don't know everyone's process.

Joey

Try these:

http://www.tandyleatherfactory.com/en-usd/search/searchresults/3445-00.aspx

They work great! Just cut off the loop and stick in the end of a small dowel long enough to reach through your piece. It wets the inside completely.
 
I have learned over the years to never to tell people the best way to do things if I have never actually done it myself.

I learned this when I was a technical trainer for a large refrigeration company. I demonstrated a procedure in front of a class of 40 mechanics that I "supposed should work this way." Well needless to say..... it was a big flop because I didn't bother to do it myself before hand. I looked like a fool and I deserved it.

I never did that again.

My experience with other glues has taught me a few things. I tried to glue up a ring billet with titebond II and ended up throwing the whole sticky mess in the trash. Water based glue thickens fast as the moisture evaporates and also soaks into the objects being glued.

I test glued a dowel in a piece with epoxy and I was very careful to slide and twist as I was assembling it. When I cut it apart later, there were small voids here and there. I didn't think that was good.

I did up a test using GG and when I cut it apart the glue joint was continuous and solid. There were no voids and there was no foam in the joint. Good stuff.


Maybe I came off as a little ruff but please try it your self before saying that epoxy or cascamite is good to use for coring. Maybe do up some samples, cut them apart and show us some pictures.

Kim

Kim, I'm getting used to it on this forum so don't worry about it. But believe me, I am not the sort to say something just to try to make myself look clever or important.

I have done various coring procedures, but never the full 29" of an american pool cue butt. However, the principle remains the same regardless.

I was not telling anyone how they should do it, moreover I was adding to the discussion and gave reasons why I would choose to use either of the two glues mentioned.

I went through a stage of using polyurethane glues for several applications, industrial stuff not off the shelf. I thought it was the best thing I had ever used. But after a couple of years, I changed my mind. I rarely use it now.

Any coring/hole plugging I do, I tend to use epoxy. As I said, cascamite is a bit of a pain. If I needed to do a lot in one day, I would use that, but usually I do things one at a time so epoxy is easier, although vastly more expensive.

I completely understand your test and the voids you encountered. This is a separate issue and is more to do with how you manage to get the glue spread right in the core and on the dowel. In itself a tricky task on that length, so I fully appreciate that aspect.

I have no doubts that a butt fully cored through would glue perfectly well with polyurethane, particularly with both ends 'open'. A few notches/lines etc. would be more than enough to ensure a good key, and 'immovable' bond.

My particular point was more to do with the the hardness of the glue, and transmission of any energies. Given that there must be a gap around the dowel to fit in the hole, there must be a film of glue between the butt wood and the core wood. I am of the opinion that it's better with a 'harder' glue.

There is no point me making some experimental butts and cut them up to try to prove anything. They would all be tight fitting and it would be virtually impossible to know which was which. My concern is solely how hard the glue is and how it may affect the overall 'feel'.

Now, to add to this discussion, you have got me thinking about the difficulties of working on the long core and how to overcome the 'foam gap' (as tiny as it may be) and make the best job using polyurethane.

In my mind, the best way would be to machine the dowel in some way a bit like the grooved dowels used in furniture making etc. (but no need to be such deep splines), and make the fit very tight so that it has to be knocked in, although not so tight that it will split the core. The fact there are splines should mean the dowel can compress ever so slightly across these splines, so careful and accurate machining should avoid any potential of splitting as the dowel is driven in.

This will give a great key for the polyurethane, allow it expand out and up/down the lines, yet retain direct wood to wood contact between the majority of the core and dowel. This would overcome my concerns about transmission of energy.

Yeah, I'd be happy to do it that way :thumbup:
 
...In my mind, the best way would be to machine the dowel in some way a bit like the grooved dowels used in furniture making etc. (but no need to be such deep splines), and make the fit very tight so that it has to be knocked in, although not so tight that it will split the core. The fact there are splines should mean the dowel can compress ever so slightly across these splines, so careful and accurate machining should avoid any potential of splitting as the dowel is driven in.

This will give a great key for the polyurethane, allow it expand out and up/down the lines, yet retain direct wood to wood contact between the majority of the core and dowel. This would overcome my concerns about transmission of energy...

I find this idea for poly glue coring intriguing. That is some nice thinking.

I also think your contribute to the discussion by talking about the hardness of the various glues after they set up is perfectly fine, regardless of whether you have used them for a 29" length core. Facts about how hard glues set up is good information. It is up to each builder to consider whether your information is valuable, based on whether they care about the hardness various glues cure to.

Kelly
 
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For those of us viewing from the cheap seats (apparently it's a lot cheaper to buy a cue than build one) this is a very interesting thread. Thanks guys! :thumbup:
 
For those of us viewing from the cheap seats (apparently it's a lot cheaper to buy a cue than build one) this is a very interesting thread. Thanks guys! :thumbup:

Hi Doc,

Yes, very true but man needs to challenge his psyche in some way. What better than to build cues and create art in some form.

To me cue building is like of basket weaving in the nut house. It calms the nerves. LOL.

Rick
 
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For those of us viewing from the cheap seats (apparently it's a lot cheaper to buy a cue than build one) this is a very interesting thread. Thanks guys! :thumbup:

I got to a point where I had so many cues, and tried them, that I thought I would like to experiment with my own things in stead of constantly buying and selling....
Wel-if I sum up the money I have spent so far on machines,tools, wood the lot - I think I could have bought any cue I could have desired.... But then I have just one - now I can create what ever I like ;-)
K
 
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