Ortmann-Hall of Fame
- Thread starter rossaroni
- Start date
Oh dear this thread looks familiar! 
As many others have stated and I have countless times, the Euro Tour is NOT restricted, many Americans have and do play on it in the past.
The fields are 256+ and IMO I would say they are similar if slightly lower in depth than a US Open field. A EuroTour event is certainly MUCH harder to win than the BCA Open for example. Don't forget Europe is a continent, NOT a country. Even the European championships that are restricted and off NO CASH are still open to like 50 nations! A Joss tour event would only be the equiv of a small part of Germany event, its simply a regional tournament even though a very good one.
I think most people agree that the US should have a national champs restricted to US Nationals only, these events would be equiv to Olivers German titles. I think most people would agree that whoever won an American Championships beating every other American would be a very very good player indeed!
I'd just like to add that good old (British) Matchroom probably offer about a million dollars in prize money per year to pool. Much of this cash goes to Americans, in fact one of their events RESTRICTS half its field to AMERICANS and pays them handsomely for their efforts. Asians are banned, only a few European countries get one spot, most none. But do we hear any Asians crying about this, do we hear any Americans complaining about this invite only event and restricted field?
Naaaaa of course not because we all love the MOSCONI CUP!
As many others have stated and I have countless times, the Euro Tour is NOT restricted, many Americans have and do play on it in the past.
The fields are 256+ and IMO I would say they are similar if slightly lower in depth than a US Open field. A EuroTour event is certainly MUCH harder to win than the BCA Open for example. Don't forget Europe is a continent, NOT a country. Even the European championships that are restricted and off NO CASH are still open to like 50 nations! A Joss tour event would only be the equiv of a small part of Germany event, its simply a regional tournament even though a very good one.
I think most people agree that the US should have a national champs restricted to US Nationals only, these events would be equiv to Olivers German titles. I think most people would agree that whoever won an American Championships beating every other American would be a very very good player indeed!
I'd just like to add that good old (British) Matchroom probably offer about a million dollars in prize money per year to pool. Much of this cash goes to Americans, in fact one of their events RESTRICTS half its field to AMERICANS and pays them handsomely for their efforts. Asians are banned, only a few European countries get one spot, most none. But do we hear any Asians crying about this, do we hear any Americans complaining about this invite only event and restricted field?
Naaaaa of course not because we all love the MOSCONI CUP!
Goodness gracious, it is no wonder that so many British, European, Filipino, Korean, Japanese, and Chinese players come to the United States to compete on American soil on a repetitive basis.
Oh my, is the grass truly not greener on the other side?
America opens her doors and welcomes pool players from around the world. There must be some underlying reason they flock our shores. Some even choose to live here. Gee whiz, I wonder why.
JAM
Oh my, is the grass truly not greener on the other side?
America opens her doors and welcomes pool players from around the world. There must be some underlying reason they flock our shores. Some even choose to live here. Gee whiz, I wonder why.
JAM
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JAM said:
I can not speak for the Europeans, but for the Filipinos , yes it is truly greener on the other side. For most Asian nations, the prestige of whoopin' American ass counts big time. (sorry can't help
). It helps the person's career in his/her own country.
crosseyedjoe said:I can not speak for the Europeans, but for the Filipinos , yes it is truly greener on the other side. For most Asian nations, the prestige of whoopin' American ass counts big time. (sorry can't help
Thanks for speaking the truth!
I never met a Filipino player that I didn't like. They're fun players, great action, and are an asset to the sport! And they can play pretty doggone good, too! 
JAM
My oh my...
This has been one good forum to read.
JAM, I think the US players let themselves down at times because they dont like to venture outside their own backyard to compete at overseas events and this is partly down to expenses and prize money on offer & the fact they probably dont rate the events as highly - would this be correct?
I overheard some US IPT players state this for the ONLY overseas event planned (London).
This is way off topic but part of the reason why non US players are being inducted. They got off their backsides and made the trip to the USA to compete in OPEN events and won some of them.
ThOne is correct in summarising the Euro Tour above which is open to all.
I think there is a genreal consesous that the US should have its own national events restricted and this would be a good way forward.
Back on topic, OO has had a fantastic career but it's not quite over and he's still pretty young in comparison to the older US players mentioned who IMO should get the nod beforehand.
I liked the idea of Paul Newman being inducted, that would be a great idea in light of the current state pool is in. The press alone would help the sport no end and give it some much needed exposure.
After all, it's called the "Billiard's Congress of Amercia - Hall of Fame".
JMO.
This has been one good forum to read.
JAM, I think the US players let themselves down at times because they dont like to venture outside their own backyard to compete at overseas events and this is partly down to expenses and prize money on offer & the fact they probably dont rate the events as highly - would this be correct?
I overheard some US IPT players state this for the ONLY overseas event planned (London).
This is way off topic but part of the reason why non US players are being inducted. They got off their backsides and made the trip to the USA to compete in OPEN events and won some of them.
ThOne is correct in summarising the Euro Tour above which is open to all.
I think there is a genreal consesous that the US should have its own national events restricted and this would be a good way forward.
Back on topic, OO has had a fantastic career but it's not quite over and he's still pretty young in comparison to the older US players mentioned who IMO should get the nod beforehand.
I liked the idea of Paul Newman being inducted, that would be a great idea in light of the current state pool is in. The press alone would help the sport no end and give it some much needed exposure.
After all, it's called the "Billiard's Congress of Amercia - Hall of Fame".
JMO.
spadevil said:
Would be cool!
spadevil said:This has been one good forum to read.
JAM, I think the US players let themselves down at times because they dont like to venture outside their own backyard to compete at overseas events and this is partly down to expenses and prize money on offer & the fact they probably dont rate the events as highly - would this be correct?
I overheard some US IPT players state this for the ONLY overseas event planned (London).
This is way off topic but part of the reason why non US players are being inducted. They got off their backsides and made the trip to the USA to compete in OPEN events and won some of them.
ThOne is correct in summarising the Euro Tour above which is open to all.
I think there is a genreal consesous that the US should have its own national events restricted and this would be a good way forward.
Back on topic, OO has had a fantastic career but it's not quite over and he's still pretty young in comparison to the older US players mentioned who IMO should get the nod beforehand.
I liked the idea of Paul Newman being inducted, that would be a great idea in light of the current state pool is in. The press alone would help the sport no end and give it some much needed exposure.
After all, it's called the "Billiard's Congress of Amercia - Hall of Fame".
Thanks for your words of wisdom, Pat. Yes, it is called "Billiard's Congress of America Hall of Fame." The voting process and requirements for induction seem to not be as clear-cut as they were years ago. There used to be two inductees admitted each year, based on two different criteria. One was meritorious and the other one -- I can't remember the word -- was their championship wins, I guess you could say.
As an example, Allen Hopkins could qualify for both criteria, meritorious and championship titles. Paul Newman would qualify, if the voters deemed him so, under the meritorious category.
I don't think anybody on this thread thinks Oliver is not a great champion. I do think that some of the so-called "wins" on his pool portfolio may not be as pretigious as other titles he may hold, one being the European-restricted tournaments, and yes, I am aware that there is a difference between the EuroTour and other European tournaments.
When it comes to pool, I categorize Europe as one entity, much like the United States, for several reasons. I mean, after all, they had to come up with the euro dollar because the countries are so close-knit in geographic location, and then there's the European Union, reminding me of the "United States." Though the countries are individually governed, the pool tournaments which are restricted to those European countries are very similar to REGIONAL TOURS in the United States, the only difference being, here in American we open our doors and allow EVERYBODY from around the world to compete in our REGIONAL pool tournaments, bar none.
So, when a European countryman has a German country-restricted tournament on his pool portfolio, do you think it should be given the same weight as, say, the U.S. Open? That is my point, though I may not have explained it as clearly as I could have.
With the WPA given so much credence, wouldn't it be splendid if they could form a WPA Hall of Fame? The BCA Hall of Fame, just like this country, is not country-restricted when it comes to inductees.
Wishing you the very best in all your future endeavors.
JAM
Overall, I'd call this an exceptional thread Most of us realize that Ortmann's career has been a successful one, and even those of us that think he doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame seem to agree he's worthy of consideration. The debate evolved into a more global one on measuring competitive excellence in our sport.
One thing this thread has highlighted, though, is the difficulty of assessing the results in pool's very unusual tournament scene. It also highlights that there's theory and then there's practice. For example, a Eurotour event may have an open field in theory, but a glance at the Eurotour website for 2007 might lead you to conclude otherwise. In fact, though Marlon Manalo finished 3rd at the Czech Open, that is the only time this year that a known non-European player has had a top-sixteen finish in a Eurotour event. It didn't happen at the Italy Open, the German Open or the Austrian Open, for the simple reason that top non-European international star players are not playing in Eurotour events. In practice then, but not in theory, Eurotour events are for Europeans only, and that is a shame, and it would be great for our sport if Americans and Asians participated more than they do in Eurotour events, for this would elevate the Eurotour events to the forefront of our sport.
Pool offers us just four events having an internationally diverse and elite field (US Open, BCA Open, Derby City and the WPC) and that's a problem, making it difficult to assess competitive excellence globally.
For the most part, everyone has made some great points in this thread, and, collectively, all we've proven is how difficult these kinds of assessments really are.
One thing this thread has highlighted, though, is the difficulty of assessing the results in pool's very unusual tournament scene. It also highlights that there's theory and then there's practice. For example, a Eurotour event may have an open field in theory, but a glance at the Eurotour website for 2007 might lead you to conclude otherwise. In fact, though Marlon Manalo finished 3rd at the Czech Open, that is the only time this year that a known non-European player has had a top-sixteen finish in a Eurotour event. It didn't happen at the Italy Open, the German Open or the Austrian Open, for the simple reason that top non-European international star players are not playing in Eurotour events. In practice then, but not in theory, Eurotour events are for Europeans only, and that is a shame, and it would be great for our sport if Americans and Asians participated more than they do in Eurotour events, for this would elevate the Eurotour events to the forefront of our sport.
Pool offers us just four events having an internationally diverse and elite field (US Open, BCA Open, Derby City and the WPC) and that's a problem, making it difficult to assess competitive excellence globally.
For the most part, everyone has made some great points in this thread, and, collectively, all we've proven is how difficult these kinds of assessments really are.
Does anybody have a clue as to why Newman has never been nominated for the HOF?
To me, Paul Newman seems like an obvious choice and he would be a shoe-in vote. It would really bring a lot to the game IMO - and Lord knows we could really use something like that to jump start the game's popularity.
To me, Paul Newman seems like an obvious choice and he would be a shoe-in vote. It would really bring a lot to the game IMO - and Lord knows we could really use something like that to jump start the game's popularity.
sjm said:
I don't know about Tom Cruise. Newman has The Hustler and TCOM and his portrayal of Fast Eddie Felson has made him a pool icon, IMO. Tom Cruise has been prone to PR nightmares as of late (scientology, playing Fast Larry to Brooke Shield's Debra Li, etc). Newman is a true legend, and an icon. It is sad that they could not have inducted Jackie Gleason when he was still on this side of dirt. As usual, the BCA missed the boat. Tevis is in the HOF - Gleason and Newman brought those characters to life.
A little off topic... but I would rather see Keith inducted in the HOF as a player, not an actor that portrayed a character. I don't think that there is a pool player alive or dead that has had the popularity or the following that Keith has had. His legend goes beyond anything that any of the other mentioned in this thread have to offer. HOF career? Off the chart career!
The EuroTour certainly isn't the most diverse tournament on the planet, even though it probably has players from 50 countries players on it, most Asians and Americans don't bother. Why, maybe the fact that the risk rewards are just to great, although I suspect the some may just not like European Camels !
I know Mika struggled on it to even make the top 32, SEE Huidji who just came 2nd in a world championships has a best of 9th on any Euro Tour recently. GAMA Manuel who came 5th in the 10 ball world cahmps has a best of 49th! BOYES Karl who kicked ass on the IPT has finished 65th in has last two tries and marcus Chamat has only made the last 32 one out of his last 32 attempts.
There is no question the EuroTour as the toughest tour on the planet.
As for the German titles, there is no question German as a pool playing nation is as good if not better than the US in recent times. If an American, lets say Kieth Reyes won only 10 American (closed US Nationals only fields) titles I think there would be an aweful lot of people calling for an iduction to a certain famous hall!
I know Mika struggled on it to even make the top 32, SEE Huidji who just came 2nd in a world championships has a best of 9th on any Euro Tour recently. GAMA Manuel who came 5th in the 10 ball world cahmps has a best of 49th! BOYES Karl who kicked ass on the IPT has finished 65th in has last two tries and marcus Chamat has only made the last 32 one out of his last 32 attempts.
There is no question the EuroTour as the toughest tour on the planet.
As for the German titles, there is no question German as a pool playing nation is as good if not better than the US in recent times. If an American, lets say Kieth Reyes won only 10 American (closed US Nationals only fields) titles I think there would be an aweful lot of people calling for an iduction to a certain famous hall!
TheOne said:The EuroTour certainly isn't the most diverse tournament on the planet, even though it probably has players from 50 countries players on it, most Asians and Americans don't bother. Why, maybe the fact that the risk rewards are just to great, although I suspect the some may just not like European Camels !
I know Mika struggled on it to even make the top 32, SEE Huidji who just came 2nd in a world championships has a best of 9th on any Euro Tour recently. GAMA Manuel who came 5th in the 10 ball world cahmps has a best of 49th! BOYES Karl who kicked ass on the IPT has finished 65th in has last two tries and marcus Chamat has only made the last 32 one out of his last 32 attempts.
There is no question the EuroTour as the toughest tour on the planet.
As for the German titles, there is no question German as a pool playing nation is as good if not better than the US in recent times. If an American, lets say Kieth Reyes won only 10 American (closed US Nationals only fields) titles I think there would be an aweful lot of people calling for an iduction to a certain famous hall!
TAP TAP TAP
And also TAP TAP TAP to BlackJack for the comments about Keith McCready! I deeply wish I can watch that guy play live sometimes, and not only live-poker
Part of the title in this thread was the HOF. This may be slightly off the subject, but I do believe it to be true nonetheless.
Part of the reason American pool is in the shape it's in has to lie with the BCA. It claims to be the governing body of pool, i.e., The Billiard Congress of America. I have been fond of calling it the Billiard Congress of Amateur pool, because they have seemingly abandoned promoting professional pool.
I know, they now promote the Enjoy.com / BCA Open 9 Ball Championship.
But let's go back...from 1966-1977 the BCA promoted the annual U.S. Open 14.1 Championships. Then, from 1978-1982, nothing. They held a U.S. Open 14.1 Championship in 1983, then nothing again until 1989 when Ortmann won his first such title. Then, no tournaments again until 1992, when Sigel won, followed by Ortmann again in 1993. From 1994-1999, none were held. In 2000, thanks in large part to Blatt Billiards, the BCA held a U.S. Open 14.1 Championship. And then 7 more years and counting with no more 14.1 Championships. So from 1978 until 2007, they've held 5 "annual" U.S. Open 14.1 tournaments. Or, said another way, 17 tournaments in 41 years. Don't think from that time that they switched their support to 9 ball. The BCA Open 9 Ball Championship wasn't held until 1999. So what service do they provide for American pro pool players?
If someone thinks it's because of a lck of sponsors, please....if the sanctioning bodies of rodeo and chess and spelling bee's can get sponsors, why not our governing body? Are we to believe that nobody likes pool? And anyway, whose job is it to elicit sponsorship for proposed tournaments? And another thing, the HOF does not even exist. There's no building to visit. Our HOF for pool players consists of one paragraph on a single piece of paper in a file cabinet somewhere. I called the BCA several times over the years looking for stats on certain players or tournaments and NEVER got the information. They don't have it. But that's "our" santioning body...
Here is a thread that a friend of mine from Philly (EL'nino) started some time back re: the politic to get into this hallowed hall of fame...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=293959#post293959
Part of the reason American pool is in the shape it's in has to lie with the BCA. It claims to be the governing body of pool, i.e., The Billiard Congress of America. I have been fond of calling it the Billiard Congress of Amateur pool, because they have seemingly abandoned promoting professional pool.
I know, they now promote the Enjoy.com / BCA Open 9 Ball Championship.
But let's go back...from 1966-1977 the BCA promoted the annual U.S. Open 14.1 Championships. Then, from 1978-1982, nothing. They held a U.S. Open 14.1 Championship in 1983, then nothing again until 1989 when Ortmann won his first such title. Then, no tournaments again until 1992, when Sigel won, followed by Ortmann again in 1993. From 1994-1999, none were held. In 2000, thanks in large part to Blatt Billiards, the BCA held a U.S. Open 14.1 Championship. And then 7 more years and counting with no more 14.1 Championships. So from 1978 until 2007, they've held 5 "annual" U.S. Open 14.1 tournaments. Or, said another way, 17 tournaments in 41 years. Don't think from that time that they switched their support to 9 ball. The BCA Open 9 Ball Championship wasn't held until 1999. So what service do they provide for American pro pool players?
If someone thinks it's because of a lck of sponsors, please....if the sanctioning bodies of rodeo and chess and spelling bee's can get sponsors, why not our governing body? Are we to believe that nobody likes pool? And anyway, whose job is it to elicit sponsorship for proposed tournaments? And another thing, the HOF does not even exist. There's no building to visit. Our HOF for pool players consists of one paragraph on a single piece of paper in a file cabinet somewhere. I called the BCA several times over the years looking for stats on certain players or tournaments and NEVER got the information. They don't have it. But that's "our" santioning body...
Here is a thread that a friend of mine from Philly (EL'nino) started some time back re: the politic to get into this hallowed hall of fame...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=293959#post293959
sad to think that they are our wonderful games', governing body.
worriedbeef said:
Are they the governing body? I thought it was the WPA. I don't understand the hierarchy, I guess. The BCA has made some transformations in the past few years. The WPA seems to desire all tournaments to be sanctioned by them, meaning they get a percentage of the event, I think. What they do with the monies is supposed to promote pool, I had thought.
One question I have today is why there are not two people inducted into the BCA's Hall of Fame like they have traditionally done in previous years? They limit it to one person each year now for the last 2 years.
JAM