A fine point.
Just that I haven't missed a ball in over a Month, myself.
haven't made any either!
Pattern racking?
- Thread starter Baxter
- Start date
A fine point.
Just that I haven't missed a ball in over a Month, myself.
haven't made any either!
Yeah yeah I know. It feels to me like it makes a difference though. I always try to not have two consecutive balls touching in a nine ball rack. One of my many "stupirstitions" i suppose.
Thanks for the link Dr. Dave.
I thought the spirit of the rule was that there is no particular way the balls *must* be racked, just that you need the 8 in the middle, and a one of each set in the corners. The rest can be random, but perhaps Bob could clarify this.
My biggest reason for racking this way was, as I said earlier, the ability to see where a particular ball comes from when it drops. Obviously the wing balls do go in, but in the rack I left, I also see the 11 and 12 fairly often depending on where I break from. If I had to make things random, how would honestly know if I was random or had simply picked and memorized 7 or 8 other racks?
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Sorry, I'm not Bob, but I got two cents
For practice, pattern racking has a bunch of benefits.....it's smart for a player to work with different speeds and see exactly what balls go where and why.....if you have two guys match up and there is an expectation of rack your own however you want to, well then there ya go.....
If you are playing in a tournament or match based on rules that clearly state the balls are to be racked "randomly", then pattern racking is cheating.....putting balls in specific slots is not random.....it's no different than any other type of obvious cheating.....play with honor and integrity amigo....
I have an honest question here, which is how is this cheating? There's no guarantee of one of those balls going in or you wouldn't see fouls on the break.
I think I have honor and integrity, whether on the cloth or off, but hey, I always support that charming young man in the mirror since he follows me everywhere.
But how do you know any thought went into it? "Random" is a hard thing to nail down.
If I blind fold you in front of a rack, I put the 1 ball in one hand and the 9 in the other and say, "rack the rest", out of 100, I bet there will be duplicate racks.
Definition as I googled it on the web:
"lacking any definite plan or order or purpose; governed by or depending on chance; "a random choice"; "bombs fell at random"; "random movements""
Patter racking is with plan and purpose....random is not....at least not in my opinion....
Everytime this topic comes up, I'm in the minority, so no worries.....I know I am wrong, at least in relation to the majority......for me, the spirit and the law of the rule are the same here.....all the best to both of you....
"lacking any definite plan or order or purpose; governed by or depending on chance; "a random choice"; "bombs fell at random"; "random movements""
Patter racking is with plan and purpose....random is not....at least not in my opinion....
Everytime this topic comes up, I'm in the minority, so no worries.....I know I am wrong, at least in relation to the majority......for me, the spirit and the law of the rule are the same here.....all the best to both of you....
No worries, as I said it was an honest question in an attempt to better understand your point of view. The original question was a pattern rack for 8-ball, which I provided. I think it's still legal but again, only Bob can truly answer that.
It's against the rules. How do people not understand that intentionally breaking a rule to get an unfair advantage is cheating? Yes, there is no guarantee, but it increases the odds in your favor. So, if we are playing poker do you not understand the concept of the deck being shuffled and cut in order to provide a random "rack" of cards? Should "pattern racking" in cards be OK just because even if you purposely deal yourself pocket aces there is no guarantee you will win the hand?
Pattern racking isn't necessarily about making a particular ball on the break. It's about the somewhat predictable disbursement of balls in certain positions in the rack to spread to somewhat predictable areas of the table. And it doesn't have to be all nine balls in a nine ball rack. Simply racking the 2 in a way that will tend to leave it near the one ball will give you a decided advantage to begin the rack.
From a 9-ball standpoint you are absolutely correct. There are only 7 balls left, for 7 spots, so there would be, 7x7 possibilities, or 49 total combos, if my 8th grade algebra serves me correctly. 8-ball however would be more, I'm guessing 13x13 (if you do 8 in the middle and 1 at the foot), or 169, but subtracting a few for the fact that you must have alternate corners (if that's your style).
I personally think that pattern breaking during league shouldn't be allowed, and is easily determined (spotted) by the fact that you are placing balls unusually (skipping spots, or grabbing particular balls for a spot). I think in general the patters might be similar, but as others said, unless most of the variables are controlled, there will still be reasonable differences. In just doesn't seem very sporty.
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I am not sure but I think the possiblities are 7X6X5X4X3X2X1=5040
At Gold Crown Billiards in Erie, Pa., this Saturday we are running our third event with the "No Conflict Rules". Part of the rules is a very simple "Random Racking Process". If you are interested, here is a link to the rules: They work.
http://www.goldcrownbilliardseriepa.com/noconflict.html
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Fair enough. I didn't mean to offend and actually I rack it in a pattern for my opponent so they are getting the "advantage", not I. How they rack for me is usually random and it doesn't concern me. I know how I break on the tables I play on, but in 8-ball (as per the original post) the layout of 15 balls after a break is hard to predict reliably.
Thanks for doing the math, I didn't wanna bust out my calculator
And I have to agree with Big Perm on this one. Random is random, and pattern racking is not random. Just because the balls appear to be in a "random" order does not mean they were put there randomly.
:thumbup:. Johnnyt
not to hijack this thread but I have a serious question as per if you are playing in a tournament and your opponent is pattern racking (which is considered illegal/cheating), when do you say foul? After he removes the rack, after the break, or do you call have the TD come over without notifiying your opponent and have him watch how he is pattern racking?
What would be the penalty for pattern racking? Are you DQ'd from the tournament? Do you get a certain amount of games penalty? I have never seen anyone actually called on it, but what I suspect happens is the person gets a warning and then there after they will be watched more closely. Now that doesn't really seem fair if they pattern racked for the first few games, sorta like they got away with it if that is all that would happen.
What would be the penalty for pattern racking? Are you DQ'd from the tournament? Do you get a certain amount of games penalty? I have never seen anyone actually called on it, but what I suspect happens is the person gets a warning and then there after they will be watched more closely. Now that doesn't really seem fair if they pattern racked for the first few games, sorta like they got away with it if that is all that would happen.
True enough. Let's face it, the break, by nature, is a fairly random event. Pattern racking particularly in 9 Ball provides an edge more than outright stealing. But to deliberately do it for the purpose of gaining and advantage is simply wrong - outside of APA league play anyway.
A knowledge of pattern racking is useful to have. For even if the balls are racked in random order there will be some pattern (even though randomly arrived at) that having that knowledge may help you. There is certainly nothing wrong with this.
I'd say something to him, and give him an opportunity to change it before bringing it up to anyone else. Just dropping a line like, "You know, you're supposed to be racking randomly" may go a long way. Maybe he doesn't even know he can't. If he continued to do it, I'd involve the TD.
That seems to make a lot more sense! I was...uh... just trying to get you thinkin
Mission accomplished! Maybe I better go back to 8th grade...I just realized (thanks to some paper) that my nonsense was only true if there were 2 balls chosen out of two sets of independent balls...oops
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Even after giving him a warning, what would you do if you were the TD and this was brought to your attention.
It would be a hard call to make as a TD, but a call would have to be made and mine would award his opponent all games that that individual won during that set. in example, if it was a race to 9 and it was 3-2, and the opponent that was pattern racking had 2, I would award them to his opponent so it would now be 5-0. That is just my opinion, but I think it would be the right call as long as I can 100% prove that he is/was pattern racking.