People who use ghost ball aiming.

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
Using the ghost ball system how do you make these type of shots.To me the ghost ball method would be looking at the contact point and imagine a spot behind that about 1 1/8 inch.At close range maybe i could see it having some success but a distance i think it would be easy to lose your spot.
What is your process you go through using the gb method to make these type of shots.And do people do the gb method different?
(the bigger the table the harder it gets)
 

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TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Gold Member
Silver Member
Using the ghost ball system how do you make these type of shots.To me the ghost ball method would be looking at the contact point and imagine a spot behind that about 1 1/8 of a inch.At close range maybe i could see it having some success but a distance i think it would be easy to lose your spot.
What is your process you go through using the gb method to make these type of shots.And are all ghost ball methods the same?
(the bigger the table the harder it gets)

I can't see a contact point. I actually aim to remove a slice of the object ball with the cueball. It's just an overlap. It kind of looks like from my perspective. Isn't this how we all do it?

Chris
 

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On the reverse cut, I walk over and stare at the line from object ball to pocket. I note how far off it is from hitting the object ball straight into the end rail. Usually it's not far off.

Then when I get down to shoot, I begin by aiming to hit the object ball straight into the end rail. I then adjust to the actual spot I want to hit.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Anthony:

In all those shots you diagram, if I were shooting them, none -- and I mean NONE -- of those shots involve the "imagination of a ghostball's center" at the contact point on the cloth where it would pocket the object ball.

That, seriously, is where I think a lot of the CTE advocates are getting it wrong about us ghostballers. Although, yes, I do have an open challenge as to my particular ability to accurately place a ghostball at the contact point where it would pocket an object ball, my main method of aiming doesn't involve that technique. Rather, like TATE says, it involves accurate "eclipsing" of the object ball with the cue ball, or more often, the snooker technique of "back of ball" aiming.

Also, a lot of CTE'ers think that we ghostballers "concentrate on where the pocket is." We don't. SURPRISE!! Yes, you read that correctly -- we don't. While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.

If, while down on the shot, you're trying to think about where the pocket is in relation to the shot, you WILL MISS the shot. If not now, then the next shot, or the subsequent shot. If you're thinking about "aiming," you *will miss*. You have to get that out of your mind.

That's why I think these aiming system threads are completely outrageously in the wrong direction. When you're shooting pool, you're supposed to be engaging the subconscious mind, *NOT* the analytical mind! If you're thinking about aiming, YOU WILL MISS(!) -- it's only a matter of time!

Subconscious mind, folks -- that's where pool excellence is at. Not the "can't get out of its own way" analytical mind. Please watch the video links I gave above. If you watch and listen -- with an open mind and with a clairvoyant eye -- you'll see what I mean. See ball, see line of shot, continue line of shot through back of ball (and instantly see the amount of ball you need to "eclipse"), step on line of shot, get down on shot, practice strokes, pot ball. It really is that easy.

-Sean
 

robleyf7

AZB Horse 2016
Silver Member
on cuts like that i like too use the center of the cb an Edge of the ob kinda depends on the angle I rarely use GB
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sean, please don't bring cte'ers into this. You have too much to add on this subject to get it derailed. I never really played with GB and was wondering what you have meant by back of the ball, I use it for safes, but not for making balls. I don't think anybody concentrate's on the pocket all that much, it's a reference to get your aim line, that's all.

Your words Sean"That's why I think these aiming system threads are completely outrageously in the wrong direction. When you're shooting pool, you're supposed to be engaging the subconscious mind, *NOT* the analytical mind! If you're thinking about aiming, YOU WILL MISS(!) -- it's only a matter of time!
Subconscious mind, folks -- that's where pool excellence is at. Not the "can't get out of its own way" analytical mind. "

I'm assuming you think cte'ers don't do this but we do, it's fluid and natural, we just get the aim line in a different way.
Anyway you make some good points, and the back of the ball tutorial is very good.
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
I can't see a contact point. I actually aim to remove a slice of the object ball with the cueball. It's just an overlap. It kind of looks like from my perspective. Isn't this how we all do it?

Chris
When you talk about overlap are you starting the shot out in a straight in line and then over lapping the ball a little at a time till the shot looks right.
Or are you using a certain overlap because of a certain angle and then feeling your way into the shot? Thanks for your input.
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
Anthony:

In all those shots you diagram, if I were shooting them, none -- and I mean NONE -- of those shots involve the "imagination of a ghostball's center" at the contact point on the cloth where it would pocket the object ball.

That, seriously, is where I think a lot of the CTE advocates are getting it wrong about us ghostballers. Although, yes, I do have an open challenge as to my particular ability to accurately place a ghostball at the contact point where it would pocket an object ball, my main method of aiming doesn't involve that technique. Rather, like TATE says, it involves accurate "eclipsing" of the object ball with the cue ball, or more often, the snooker technique of "back of ball" aiming.

Also, a lot of CTE'ers think that we ghostballers "concentrate on where the pocket is." We don't. SURPRISE!! Yes, you read that correctly -- we don't. While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.

If, while down on the shot, you're trying to think about where the pocket is in relation to the shot, you WILL MISS the shot. If not now, then the next shot, or the subsequent shot. If you're thinking about "aiming," you *will miss*. You have to get that out of your mind.

That's why I think these aiming system threads are completely outrageously in the wrong direction. When you're shooting pool, you're supposed to be engaging the subconscious mind, *NOT* the analytical mind! If you're thinking about aiming, YOU WILL MISS(!) -- it's only a matter of time!

Subconscious mind, folks -- that's where pool excellence is at. Not the "can't get out of its own way" analytical mind. Please watch the video links I gave above. If you watch and listen -- with an open mind and with a clairvoyant eye -- you'll see what I mean. See ball, see line of shot, continue line of shot through back of ball (and instantly see the amount of ball you need to "eclipse"), step on line of shot, get down on shot, practice strokes, pot ball. It really is that easy.

-Sean
Sean Quote
(While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.)

Sean when you say your getting the line of aim through the back of the ball to the pocket ,on the shots that i posted would you go over to the object ball look at the contact point keep your eyes focused on that until you get behind the cb and then step into that line and let feel take over ,Or are you standing behind the cb finding the line of aim through the object ball and falling on that line and letting feel take over? Thanks for your post.
 

whitewolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sean Quote
(While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.)

Sean when you say your getting the line of aim through the back of the ball to the pocket ,on the shots that i posted would you go over to the object ball look at the contact point keep your eyes focused on that until you get behind the cb and then step into that line and let feel take over ,Or are you standing behind the cb finding the line of aim through the object ball and falling on that line and letting feel take over? Thanks for your post.

Only rank amatuers have to walk over to the object ball to view the path. I have to burst out laughing to myself everytime I see someone do this. And especially if they claim to be a ghostballer.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Gold Member
Silver Member
Or are you using a certain overlap because of a certain angle and then feeling your way into the shot? Thanks for your input.

This one. I look at the angle standing behind the shot, then when I get down on it, I want to be as close as possible to the cut angle. I notice that I do usually start off a little full and move into the final cut position.

I go one step further and visualize the outcome - which way the OB travels (hopefully to the pocket). I really don't like to move around too much once I'm down on the shot - it's too easy to talk myself into missing the shot.

I like the way Sean called it 'eclipse' aiming - that's exactly what it is. I personally think we all do it the same way, we just describe it differently.

Chris
 
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duckie

GregH
Silver Member
Anthony:

In all those shots you diagram, if I were shooting them, none -- and I mean NONE -- of those shots involve the "imagination of a ghostball's center" at the contact point on the cloth where it would pocket the object ball.

That, seriously, is where I think a lot of the CTE advocates are getting it wrong about us ghostballers. Although, yes, I do have an open challenge as to my particular ability to accurately place a ghostball at the contact point where it would pocket an object ball, my main method of aiming doesn't involve that technique. Rather, like TATE says, it involves accurate "eclipsing" of the object ball with the cue ball, or more often, the snooker technique of "back of ball" aiming.

Also, a lot of CTE'ers think that we ghostballers "concentrate on where the pocket is." We don't. SURPRISE!! Yes, you read that correctly -- we don't. While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.

If, while down on the shot, you're trying to think about where the pocket is in relation to the shot, you WILL MISS the shot. If not now, then the next shot, or the subsequent shot. If you're thinking about "aiming," you *will miss*. You have to get that out of your mind.

That's why I think these aiming system threads are completely outrageously in the wrong direction. When you're shooting pool, you're supposed to be engaging the subconscious mind, *NOT* the analytical mind! If you're thinking about aiming, YOU WILL MISS(!) -- it's only a matter of time!

Subconscious mind, folks -- that's where pool excellence is at. Not the "can't get out of its own way" analytical mind. Please watch the video links I gave above. If you watch and listen -- with an open mind and with a clairvoyant eye -- you'll see what I mean. See ball, see line of shot, continue line of shot through back of ball (and instantly see the amount of ball you need to "eclipse"), step on line of shot, get down on shot, practice strokes, pot ball. It really is that easy.

-Sean


FYI, this is not how all ghostballers do it. It is a way to use GB. I do not use the overlap view mentioned. My version of GB is based on Babe Cranfields arrow. I roll the CB over the spot on the table that would make the OB or in some cases the CB, go where I want them to.

I never forget about the pocket, it is always in my shot picture that is in my mind.

It is a fact the the CB contact patch at time of contact with the OB will be 1/2 a ball(thats 1/2 whatever size the CB is) from the edge of the OB. So, I would get behind the OB and sight a line from the point I want to put the OB to a point 1/2 ball beyond the outer edge, thats towards me(guess that be back of the ball), of the OB. Babe Cranfields arrow is really useful tool to help learn this.

Once I have that spot on the table, I tend to keep my eyes on that spot as I move to the CB positon. This helps me keep my eyes on where the CB will need to go. Also, this methods really keeps my eyes over the aim line instead of looking at the CP on the OB to where I think the CB will need to be.

Once I get into shot position, its all a matter of rolling the CB over that spot. The only time I think about the CP on the OB is in determining the spot on the table where the CB contact patch will be at the moment of contact with the OB.

Now, I do not always have to get behind the OB to find that spot. Practice takes care of always having to do it on every shot, but on certain shots, you bet I will start my aiming behind the OB.

One thing I did do early on and that I never seen of heard of anyone doing before is what I call GB visualization drill. I use the 8 and 1 for the contrast. Setup the 8 as the ball to be pocketed somewhere, freeze the 1 ball at the spot on the table that will make the 8. Now take the CB and move to various positions on the table and get down in your shot stance as if your were shooting and just look at the 8 and 1. Then move the CB somewhere else and repeat. This is a good drill to do if you use the overlap version of GB.

Now, how you get into your shot making zone is a whole other matter and it is not system based at all.

I've been working with chicken bones lately and .........ooppps wrong thread.

FWIW

PS.........PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE
 
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duckie

GregH
Silver Member
This one. I look at the angle standing behind the shot, then when I get down on it, I want to be as close as possible to the cut angle. I notice that I do usually start off a little full and move into the final cut position.

I go one step further and visualize the outcome - which way the OB travels (hopefully to the pocket). I really don't like to move around too much once I'm down on the shot - it's too easy to talk myself into missing the shot.

I like the way Sean called it 'eclipse' aiming - that's exactly what it is. I personally think we all do it the same way, we just describe it differently.

Chris

You make a good point about what happens after a shot. To me a shot has two componets. One, making the OB go where you want and Two, where to CB goes after hitting the OB or rail.

It is good to always be practicing making a ball and getting postion for the next shot. This should be practiced from the first time one ever picks up a stick. Make the shot, get shape. There, I done let the secert to great pool playing out the bag.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Sean, please don't bring cte'ers into this. You have too much to add on this subject to get it derailed. I never really played with GB and was wondering what you have meant by back of the ball, I use it for safes, but not for making balls. I don't think anybody concentrate's on the pocket all that much, it's a reference to get your aim line, that's all.

Your words Sean"That's why I think these aiming system threads are completely outrageously in the wrong direction. When you're shooting pool, you're supposed to be engaging the subconscious mind, *NOT* the analytical mind! If you're thinking about aiming, YOU WILL MISS(!) -- it's only a matter of time!
Subconscious mind, folks -- that's where pool excellence is at. Not the "can't get out of its own way" analytical mind. "

I'm assuming you think cte'ers don't do this but we do, it's fluid and natural, we just get the aim line in a different way.
Anyway you make some good points, and the back of the ball tutorial is very good.

Sean Quote
(While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.)

Sean when you say your getting the line of aim through the back of the ball to the pocket ,on the shots that i posted would you go over to the object ball look at the contact point keep your eyes focused on that until you get behind the cb and then step into that line and let feel take over ,Or are you standing behind the cb finding the line of aim through the object ball and falling on that line and letting feel take over? Thanks for your post.

Hi Dave & Anthony!

Apologies I was away from the boards since I posted. The lady and I are busying getting ready for our trip out to Denver for the holidays.

Dave, please don't take my mention of "CTE'ers" as a way of derailing the thread. I wanted to make a point that, all this time, became strikingly apparent to me why aiming threads seem to dip their wing and spiral into the ground. I wanted to clear up an assumption, and I hope I have. As evidenced by duckie's response, there are several variations of using the ghostball technique. Chris Tate's and mine is the eclipsing technique. For me, it grew out of (it was a logical extension of) using duckie's method, which itself is based on Babe Cranfield's "arrow." That is, for many shots that've been written and committed to my subconscious, I don't have to view the ghostball anymore. I don't have to roll the cue ball's center over the contact patch on the cloth where the ghostball lays to pocket the object ball. I just "recognize" the angle and the amount of the object ball I need to eclipse with the cue ball. It's just there -- in my subconscious -- to do this. By relying upon my subconscious to do this, I've nixed several steps down to one. I've made it SIMPLER.

By doing this, I've removed some variables that can cause the shot to go awry. For one thing, I've removed the "steering the shot" variable. That's why I mentioned after you've sighted the shot while standing, once you get down in your stance, you FORGET about the pocket. All I personally concentrate on, is delivering the cue ball straight-as-an-arrow to the object ball to eclipse it by the amount I've selected. By forgetting about where the pocket is in this stage of the shot, I've eliminated the tendency to "watch the pocket" and thus the ability to "steer" it. When you have the pocket "to the left" or "to the right" in your field of vision and you're concentrating on it, you tend to steer the cue. It's because something you're concentrating on is not dead-straight in front of you, so the mind (the analytical one) tends to want to intervene. Eliminate the pocket *while you're down on the shot*, and you eliminate one of the variables that cause you to steer.

Anthony, the "feel" aspect is partly done while standing, partly while down on the shot. I'm not sure if I can explain it fully, but when I get a few minutes later, I'll try to. But briefly, when I'm standing, I'm getting a "feel" for the angle of the object ball to the pocket. I'm getting a "preliminary feel" for how much of the object ball is to be eclipsed once I'm down on the shot. E.g.: 3/4 ball, 1/2 ball, 1/3 ball, etc. Yes, at times, I will use my ability to "see" the ghostball at that position to "help" me get a gander on how much of the object ball that ghostball is eclipsing. Then, when I'm down on the shot, I "complete" that process. I'm keeping my eyes on the object ball the whole time, keeping that eclipsing reference and "watching it" as I go down on the shot. The cue ball and object ball are now right in front of me, and I just "complete" the eclipsing. Since I've forgotten about the pocket by this time, I'm just focused on making sure I deliver the cue ball accurately to eclipse the object ball just as I see it "right there in front of me" (mind's eye). All this happens without much use of the analytical mind. Most of these types of shots are committed to "rote" -- I do them without even thinking about them.

And when you play a rhythm game like 14.1, it's essential that you NOT LET your analytical mind interfere with your shot-making. When you're standing up at the table, sure! You use your analytical mind to view the patterns, especially as you get closer to your break ball, the key ball to the break ball, and the key ball to the key ball that gets you to the break ball. But as soon as you're bending over into the shot, click! The analytical mind switches off, and you're running almost entirely on subconscious at that point.

I also find myself switching my analytical mind on and off when playing One Pocket. I was playing my One Pocket sparring partner on Monday night, and *twice* I ran more than the needed number of balls I needed to win -- I ran 10 once, and 12 on another. My sparring partner said nothing, just sat there and smiling, because I was in the rhythm of pocketing balls. Although most One Pocket players would call me a numbskull for not keeping track of my ball count, it's still a very fulfilling feeling when you're in the zone like that.

Anyway, I hope that helps!
-Sean
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi Dave & Anthony!



By doing this, I've removed some variables that can cause the shot to go awry. For one thing, I've removed the "steering the shot" variable. That's why I mentioned after you've sighted the shot while standing, once you get down in your stance, you FORGET about the pocket. All I personally concentrate on, is delivering the cue ball straight-as-an-arrow to the object ball to eclipse it by the amount I've selected. By forgetting about where the pocket is in this stage of the shot, I've eliminated the tendency to "watch the pocket" and thus the ability to "steer" it. When you have the pocket "to the left" or "to the right" in your field of vision and you're concentrating on it, you tend to steer the cue. It's because something you're concentrating on is not dead-straight in front of you, so the mind (the analytical one) tends to want to intervene. Eliminate the pocket *while you're down on the shot*, and you eliminate one of the variables that cause you to steer.
Anyway, I hope that helps!
-Sean
This paragraph is priceless info, Thanks.
 

bboxgrinder

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can use all the aiming systems in the world and give them all a name, but in my opinion if you don't have natural ability and the hand eye coordination to become better your just going to be what you are. :eek:
 

duckie

GregH
Silver Member
Sean makes a very good point about rhythm. I've noticed that when I start missing it is usually because I'm hurrying for some unknown reason. Now, when I start this pattern, I start counting one thousnd one, one thousand two and so on. It seems to help be slow down and I start making shots again.

I was playing 14.1 with someone and was just running ball after ball then missed because I thought about the shot. It's really that simple.

Good description about how feel comes into play also, but that level of feel does not come over night. It is something that is groomed over time.

One thing I do that I do not know if others do is that when I'm in shooting postion,on most shots, my focus is not on any one thing. I can fix my stare in such a way as I can see the pocket, the OB and any balls in that general area. Something I picked up from racing motorcycles where you need to see everything around you and not target fixate on anything. There is a saying in bike riding that you go here you look and I've carried that over to pool.

What this does for me is to give me a complete shot picture that helps me determine how to stroke the cue ball.

This has really helped in my position play.

FWIW
 

brad21156

Registered
Can someone diagram what they mean by back of the ball aiming. If I aim at the spot on the ball that the snooker coach said to I miss the pocket. On thin shots the spot is on the side of the ball I can't see. I didn't have any luck with the Mullen method video posted awhile back for the same reason. Maybe I'm just missing a part to the puzzle?
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
Hi Dave & Anthony!

Apologies I was away from the boards since I posted. The lady and I are busying getting ready for our trip out to Denver for the holidays.

Dave, please don't take my mention of "CTE'ers" as a way of derailing the thread. I wanted to make a point that, all this time, became strikingly apparent to me why aiming threads seem to dip their wing and spiral into the ground. I wanted to clear up an assumption, and I hope I have. As evidenced by duckie's response, there are several variations of using the ghostball technique. Chris Tate's and mine is the eclipsing technique. For me, it grew out of (it was a logical extension of) using duckie's method, which itself is based on Babe Cranfield's "arrow." That is, for many shots that've been written and committed to my subconscious, I don't have to view the ghostball anymore. I don't have to roll the cue ball's center over the contact patch on the cloth where the ghostball lays to pocket the object ball. I just "recognize" the angle and the amount of the object ball I need to eclipse with the cue ball. It's just there -- in my subconscious -- to do this. By relying upon my subconscious to do this, I've nixed several steps down to one. I've made it SIMPLER.

By doing this, I've removed some variables that can cause the shot to go awry. For one thing, I've removed the "steering the shot" variable. That's why I mentioned after you've sighted the shot while standing, once you get down in your stance, you FORGET about the pocket. All I personally concentrate on, is delivering the cue ball straight-as-an-arrow to the object ball to eclipse it by the amount I've selected. By forgetting about where the pocket is in this stage of the shot, I've eliminated the tendency to "watch the pocket" and thus the ability to "steer" it. When you have the pocket "to the left" or "to the right" in your field of vision and you're concentrating on it, you tend to steer the cue. It's because something you're concentrating on is not dead-straight in front of you, so the mind (the analytical one) tends to want to intervene. Eliminate the pocket *while you're down on the shot*, and you eliminate one of the variables that cause you to steer.

Anthony, the "feel" aspect is partly done while standing, partly while down on the shot. I'm not sure if I can explain it fully, but when I get a few minutes later, I'll try to. But briefly, when I'm standing, I'm getting a "feel" for the angle of the object ball to the pocket. I'm getting a "preliminary feel" for how much of the object ball is to be eclipsed once I'm down on the shot. E.g.: 3/4 ball, 1/2 ball, 1/3 ball, etc. Yes, at times, I will use my ability to "see" the ghostball at that position to "help" me get a gander on how much of the object ball that ghostball is eclipsing. Then, when I'm down on the shot, I "complete" that process. I'm keeping my eyes on the object ball the whole time, keeping that eclipsing reference and "watching it" as I go down on the shot. The cue ball and object ball are now right in front of me, and I just "complete" the eclipsing. Since I've forgotten about the pocket by this time, I'm just focused on making sure I deliver the cue ball accurately to eclipse the object ball just as I see it "right there in front of me" (mind's eye). All this happens without much use of the analytical mind. Most of these types of shots are committed to "rote" -- I do them without even thinking about them.

And when you play a rhythm game like 14.1, it's essential that you NOT LET your analytical mind interfere with your shot-making. When you're standing up at the table, sure! You use your analytical mind to view the patterns, especially as you get closer to your break ball, the key ball to the break ball, and the key ball to the key ball that gets you to the break ball. But as soon as you're bending over into the shot, click! The analytical mind switches off, and you're running almost entirely on subconscious at that point.

I also find myself switching my analytical mind on and off when playing One Pocket. I was playing my One Pocket sparring partner on Monday night, and *twice* I ran more than the needed number of balls I needed to win -- I ran 10 once, and 12 on another. My sparring partner said nothing, just sat there and smiling, because I was in the rhythm of pocketing balls. Although most One Pocket players would call me a numbskull for not keeping track of my ball count, it's still a very fulfilling feeling when you're in the zone like that.

Anyway, I hope that helps!
-Sean

Sean thanks for the post ,you do a very good job at explaining things and you are very helpful.Again Thanks.
 
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