People who use ghost ball aiming.

Nick B

This is gonna hurt
Silver Member
Dennis Hatch for one. Go check out some of the Mosconi cup 2010 stuff up on youtube. Dennis drops his tip in behind the ball where he wants to hit it.

Nick

Please name the pros who do this.

I can't think of any, except Charlie Williams, and the only time he does this is after he gets down and the shot doesn't look right. Then he gets up off the shot, walks over and examines the spot on the object ball, and goes back down for a 'new look'. I know this because I took a lesson from him.

WW
 

whitewolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
ya Charlie is obvious......he's def not afraid to stand up and reset....

but another player that does it is Mika..........he will stand back find the spot then align by looking at the shot through his shaft and then steps into it and drops in.

Alot of better players that do this you just don't notice, they come around the table on the right side of the next ball and see the spot in a mili second.....it all happens inroute.

But there is not one top pro or shortstop that I can name that I havent seen do what we are talking about at least a few times. Shots can play funny tricks on you sometimes and it helps to gain the diff perspective to be sure.

-Grey Ghost-

OMG - last night I was watching Jasmin in Georgia doing it - and I had never noticed until talking through this thread. She seemed to be doing it on important 9 ball shots and it seems her purpose was to slow down and have time to take a breath. Amateurish :grin-square:
 

jsp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
OMG - last night I was watching Jasmin in Georgia doing it - and I had never noticed until talking through this thread. She seemed to be doing it on important 9 ball shots and it seems her purpose was to slow down and have time to take a breath. Amateurish :grin-square:
In other words...

"I was wrong with my initial post, and I stand corrected."
 

PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When shooting cut shots, one needs to take into account the effects of throw on the object ball. Simply aiming for the ghost ball contact point is insufficient as the object ball will be thrown off course.

Two ways one can compensate for throw is to use outside english on the cue ball or hit the object ball a little bit thinner. Or use both techniques at the same time.
 

sticktigerx314

New member
Put a tad bit of right on it at pocket speed and tings will be otay.:thumbup:

What if I want the cue ball to go to the left after contacting the rail, you would have to aim completely different.
To me, if you are talking about the back of the ball, you can't even see it, you can only see the front and the sides.
 

Williebetmore

Member, .25% Club
Silver Member
Only rank amatuers have to walk over to the object ball to view the path. I have to burst out laughing to myself everytime I see someone do this. And especially if they claim to be a ghostballer.

WW,
Last week Johnny Archer corrected me when I failed to look at my shot from behind the object ball (looking at the line from object ball to pocket, and then picking the exact contact point on the object ball that would send it to the portion of the pocket I chose). He thinks it is an essential part of the routine on any cut shot. Just sharing (because I bet he can make it automatically without such line up, but he still does so on critical shots).
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Anthony:

In all those shots you diagram, if I were shooting them, none -- and I mean NONE -- of those shots involve the "imagination of a ghostball's center" at the contact point on the cloth where it would pocket the object ball.

That, seriously, is where I think a lot of the CTE advocates are getting it wrong about us ghostballers. Although, yes, I do have an open challenge as to my particular ability to accurately place a ghostball at the contact point where it would pocket an object ball, my main method of aiming doesn't involve that technique. Rather, like TATE says, it involves accurate "eclipsing" of the object ball with the cue ball, or more often, the snooker technique of "back of ball" aiming.

Also, a lot of CTE'ers think that we ghostballers "concentrate on where the pocket is." We don't. SURPRISE!! Yes, you read that correctly -- we don't. While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.

If, while down on the shot, you're trying to think about where the pocket is in relation to the shot, you WILL MISS the shot. If not now, then the next shot, or the subsequent shot. If you're thinking about "aiming," you *will miss*. You have to get that out of your mind.

That's why I think these aiming system threads are completely outrageously in the wrong direction. When you're shooting pool, you're supposed to be engaging the subconscious mind, *NOT* the analytical mind! If you're thinking about aiming, YOU WILL MISS(!) -- it's only a matter of time!

Subconscious mind, folks -- that's where pool excellence is at. Not the "can't get out of its own way" analytical mind. Please watch the video links I gave above. If you watch and listen -- with an open mind and with a clairvoyant eye -- you'll see what I mean. See ball, see line of shot, continue line of shot through back of ball (and instantly see the amount of ball you need to "eclipse"), step on line of shot, get down on shot, practice strokes, pot ball. It really is that easy.

-Sean

Well, I'll be flabbergasted. I thought Ghost Ball aiming if no English was used was aiming at an imaginary ghost ball, like shown on Dr. Dave's website at this link: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ghost
Eclipse aiming is an entirely different method of visualization than Ghost ball aiming at least as far as I have always thought.

I thought they were two different things. I always wondered how you could see the center of the ghost ball and aim to that center so accurately.

Now you are saying you don't aim at the center of the ghost ball as illustrated in Dr. Dave's link, correct?

Not busting your balls, just trying to understand how you aim.

In the snooker aiming link the eclipsing of the cue ball and object ball seem to refer to fractional aiming.

JoeyA
 
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AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
sfleinen said:
... my main method of aiming ... involves accurate "eclipsing" of the object ball with the cue ball ...

Well, I'll be flabbergasted. I thought Ghost Ball aiming if no English was used was aiming at an imaginary ghost ball ...

You're confusing me, too, now Sean. I seem to remember past posts from you with your whack-a-mole analogy. You see the ghost ball sitting there in all its 3-D glory and you just whack it with the cue ball. No?
 
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sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
You're confusing me, too, now Sean. I seem to remember past posts from you with your whack-a-mole analogy. You see the ghost ball sitting there in all its 3-D glory and you just whack it with the cue ball. No?

Guys:

Calm down, it's an easy explanation. Yes, I see the ghostball as plain as day, and the whack-a-mole analogy still applies. It's just that I now skip a step, and skip the mole altogether. Think of it this way -- while standing up and viewing the shot, I see the ghostball in all its glory. I'm thinking, "there he is! The CaddyShack mole! Kill 'im!" (J/K!) Then I get down on the shot, and line up to hit the mole right between the eyes; he vanishes as I'm fully down on the shot, and all I see are the cue ball and the back of the object ball ("back of ball" aiming, just like used in snooker). The "eclipsing" part has already been done, by my viewing the shot from above, seeing the ghostball, getting down on the shot, and watching the ghostball "vanish" right in front of my eyes, to reveal the object ball behind it, already lined up with the proper amount to "eclipse" with the cue ball.

Does that make sense? I guess you could call it a meld of ghostball aiming and "back of ball". I use the ghostball to "GetMeThere" -- oops, don't know why I was thinking that -- except to *plonk* JoeyA. :p :D

Honestly and seriously, hope that helps explain it. When I get equipped for video, hopefully I can put a video together, with Adobe Illustrator "doctoring," that explains it.

-Sean
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well, I'll be flabbergasted. I thought Ghost Ball aiming if no English was used was aiming at an imaginary ghost ball, like shown on Dr. Dave's website at this link: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#ghost
Eclipse aiming is an entirely different method of visualization than Ghost ball aiming at least as far as I have always thought.

I thought they were two different things. I always wondered how you could see the center of the ghost ball and aim to that center so accurately.

Now you are saying you don't aim at the center of the ghost ball as illustrated in Dr. Dave's link, correct?

Not busting your balls, just trying to understand how you aim.

In the snooker aiming link the eclipsing of the cue ball and object ball seem to refer to fractional aiming.

JoeyA

JoeyA:

*Fingerplonk-on-Joey's-forehead*

Dr. Dave's video, while helpful for the absolute beginner, is not helpful for any seasoned pool player that already has an idea of how to "cut" balls into a pocket (or at least send them in the general direction).

Reason: trying to envision a spot on the cloth to aim it is fraught with error. While envision an imaginary ball right next to the object ball is easily done, and then the subsequent step of aiming dead-center on that imaginary ball is also easily done, trying to envision where that ball touches the cloth introduces needless error. Here's why -- you already have your "solution" of aiming dead-center at the imaginary ball. You see the outline of the ball, and it's an easy matter to put your crosshairs at "center mass." Why are you adding the extra step of trying to envision the exact contact point on the cloth? Joey, I'm assuming you're experienced with firearms, yes? If so, are you capable of shooting a dead-center heart shot on a silhouette target without any sort of "exact center" marker, or do you need a "+" marker in the exact center of the silhouette to show you where dead-center is?

In the previous post #49, I explain how I often (now, quite frequently) let the "mole" just vanish from my sight, after I've lined-up and gotten down on the shot. What's left, after the mole vanishes, is just the cue ball and the back of the object ball, already "eclipsed" by the amount I need. And -- gasp! -- many times I don't need to envision the ghostball at all. Many shots have already been added to my "catalog of shots" in my subconscious, and I just get down on the shot and "see" the solution automatically -- the amount of the object ball I need to "eclipse" with the cue ball to make the shot, without ever envisioning the ghostball. Yes, I skipped a step there, but I don't need it anymore for that "cataloged" shot.

Hope that helps explain it,
-Sean
 

pdcue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This one. I look at the angle standing behind the shot, then when I get down on it, I want to be as close as possible to the cut angle. I notice that I do usually start off a little full and move into the final cut position.

I go one step further and visualize the outcome - which way the OB travels (hopefully to the pocket). I really don't like to move around too much once I'm down on the shot - it's too easy to talk myself into missing the shot.

I like the way Sean called it 'eclipse' aiming - that's exactly what it is. I personally think we all do it the same way, we just describe it differently.

Chris

OK, now I have questions.

My understanding has always been that Ghost Ball aimming involved
visualizing a cue ball in the position of a dead combination, then
'aimming' the center of the Cue Ball "at" the center of the GB.

Back when I used to aim - I was a contact-point to contact-point
player(aimmer?)

One of my close associates, who in those days was a much better
shot maker than I, used your method. He referred to it as the 'overlap'
or 'cut-out' method, tho IMHO - 'eclipse' is a better, ie more
self-explanitory term.

The question, as promissed:
So, is what you guys do "really" Ghost Ball?
..............................................................................................

A few by-the-ways:

for the geometrically inclinded - if you diagram the 3 methods -
GB, eclipse, CP-to-CP, they all result in exactly the same 'line-of-aim'

FWIW - all of the above, are, in fact, "sighting", not aimming.
Aimming is defind as pointing at something, but I digress.

A general concept. I am somewhat stunned by the percentage of 'good'
or better players who claim to adjust their point of aim and/or encounter
shots they just can't "see" where to hit . I would never expect to hear this
from anyone above intermediate skill level.

IMHO - no one single idea can help a player improve more than the very simple: STOP

stop adjusting
stop calculating
most of all - stop thinking...

all these are predicated on the requirement of knowing EXACTLY where to hit
the OB BEFORE you line up for the shot.

DO this, practice this...I promise you will play better.
The bad news, it requires the dreaded "P" word(practice, practice, practice):).

Dale
 
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AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Does that make sense? I guess you could call it a meld of ghostball aiming and "back of ball". ...

sfleinen said:
... Many shots have already been added to my "catalog of shots" in my subconscious, and I just get down on the shot and "see" the solution automatically ...

Yeah, I understand, Sean. But you were my poster boy for true ghost ball -- see ghost ball, shoot straight shot at ghost ball. Now you're eclipsing, back-of-balling, and (horrors) even just feeling the shot. I'm afraid I'll have to take you off my poster.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Yeah, I understand, Sean. But you were my poster boy for true ghost ball -- see ghost ball, shoot straight shot at ghost ball. Now you're eclipsing, back-of-balling, and (horrors) even just feeling the shot. I'm afraid I'll have to take you off my poster.

Well now, you'll just have to add me to your Cable Guy poster. You know, "Git 'r done!" :D
 

genomachino

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We all kind of fractionally Aim...........

Using the ghost ball system how do you make these type of shots.To me the ghost ball method would be looking at the contact point and imagine a spot behind that about 1 1/8 inch.At close range maybe i could see it having some success but a distance i think it would be easy to lose your spot.
What is your process you go through using the gb method to make these type of shots.And do people do the gb method different?
(the bigger the table the harder it gets)

Whether we call it overlap, back of the ball or whatever we all fractionally aim whether we know it or not.

When you stand in back of the shot in your preshot routine if you have one, you are already deciding how much of that OB you are going to hit. You might picture a ghost ball to help you visualize the amount but we are all fractionally aiming one way or another.

This is the way the eyes visualize the shot. Whether you are guessing or you know exactly how much you are hitting it is what it is.

They are all giving you a mental measurement of how much of the CB is going to hit the OB.

No matter how you shake or bake it we have fractional aiming.
 

336Robin

Multiverse Operative
Gold Member
Silver Member
The Ghost

Ive read some of the comments and one thing strikes me that a good player told me a long time ago when I was learning what to do about aiming.

He said, you know its just not that complicated, youre overcomplicating the issue when you figure out how to not overcomplicate the issue it gets a whole lot easier.

That didnt tell me a lot about how to aim the ball but essentially he was right, how ever you boil it all down so you can understand the situation and deal with it is the key. For some of us that might as well be quantum physics because some of us will never figure it out to a high level of proficiency. We dont know what we do we just try and be right and we kick ourselves when we are not. When we get down on the ball we are shaky and nervous because we are trying to feel something and we havent given ourselves something real to go by that seems to work for us.

Pool isnt so complicated sure its geometry and I dont mean you have to split up angles into degrees that you can quote off in midair as you shoot either. Put the slide rule up. Its just lines, triangular position zones, rebound angles and stroke speeds but when you start spinning the ball ---------then its art.

You just have to be able to see what youre doing, know what youre doing based on something you use as a key.

Some people are gifted and understand that from day one and do amazing things. Some dont, most dont.

If you know what it is you do based on something you understand know what that is then you have something concrete on which to build your game and some search a lifetime for it, play everyday to attain it and some do and some dont.

You would think that you might have to do yoga, transdental meditation, bark at the moon or whatever and be one with the universe to make shots but naaa-- just not that complicated.

I just think its everyones right to be the master at the table that he has the potential to be. I dont think you should have to play all the time to be able to attain a higher knowing of the game beyond the normal pool league player.

I just dont think most people have figured out how to do just what my friend was talking about. Finding those simple ways that work for you thats precious stuff.

Making it simple. Thats my story and Im sticking to it.

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

http://274928807619529663.weebly.com/
 

Craig Fales

Registered bubinga user
Silver Member
Only rank amatuers have to walk over to the object ball to view the path. I have to burst out laughing to myself everytime I see someone do this. And especially if they claim to be a ghostballer.
I've seen a lot of rank amateurs like Johnny Archer and Efren look at the path.
 

RWOJO

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ghost Ball Method

I use this method for aiming.

First I stand behind the shot to see the line of sight. I continue the line through the object ball and extend it far past it. Then I visualize the tangent line (again not stopping at the object ball but through it. I tend to aim at a very small speck on the table where the center of the ghost ball is (both my lines intersect) and focusing on this point (not taking my eyes off of it) I walk around to behind the cueball. Before I get down on my stance I picture a line from the target (that very small speck) and go from my cueball through that spot and all the way to the rail. With all of that done I have a more definitive aiming point and i double check my alignment before getting down.
 

whitewolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've seen a lot of rank amateurs like Johnny Archer and Efren look at the path.


Yes, but not even more that 3% of the time!!!! Johnny maybe a little more.

I'll bet Efren doesn't do it to line up the shot. He is probably just trying to slow down or something. Now Johnny may have a different reason thanks to Willhebetmore.

Regards.
 

whitewolf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Anthony:

In all those shots you diagram, if I were shooting them, none -- and I mean NONE -- of those shots involve the "imagination of a ghostball's center" at the contact point on the cloth where it would pocket the object ball.

That, seriously, is where I think a lot of the CTE advocates are getting it wrong about us ghostballers. Although, yes, I do have an open challenge as to my particular ability to accurately place a ghostball at the contact point where it would pocket an object ball, my main method of aiming doesn't involve that technique. Rather, like TATE says, it involves accurate "eclipsing" of the object ball with the cue ball, or more often, the snooker technique of "back of ball" aiming.

Also, a lot of CTE'ers think that we ghostballers "concentrate on where the pocket is." We don't. SURPRISE!! Yes, you read that correctly -- we don't. While we're standing, we're looking at where the pocket is, briefly, to get the line of aim through the back of the object ball. Once we get down on the shot, the key is to FORGET where the pocket is. Rather, we're looking at the back of the ball where we continue the line of the shot to pocket that ball.

If, while down on the shot, you're trying to think about where the pocket is in relation to the shot, you WILL MISS the shot. If not now, then the next shot, or the subsequent shot. If you're thinking about "aiming," you *will miss*. You have to get that out of your mind.

That's why I think these aiming system threads are completely outrageously in the wrong direction. When you're shooting pool, you're supposed to be engaging the subconscious mind, *NOT* the analytical mind! If you're thinking about aiming, YOU WILL MISS(!) -- it's only a matter of time!

Subconscious mind, folks -- that's where pool excellence is at. Not the "can't get out of its own way" analytical mind. Please watch the video links I gave above. If you watch and listen -- with an open mind and with a clairvoyant eye -- you'll see what I mean. See ball, see line of shot, continue line of shot through back of ball (and instantly see the amount of ball you need to "eclipse"), step on line of shot, get down on shot, practice strokes, pot ball. It really is that easy.

-Sean

A very good observation.

To note, I am a ghostballer and I must state that I never look at the pocket when lining up the shot. I see/FEEL where the two rails converge for most shots and I let her rip when I FEEL that it is going in.
 

stumpie71

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My GF uses GB aiming. The way she was taught was to stand behind the object ball and use her cue to to aim the ob into the pocket while holding the tip around 1 1/14 away from the edge of the ball (roughly 2 finger widths). Then use that spot to aim the center of the cb at. Simply and effective. I have had several good players tell me on most shots they do not aim at the ob they aim behind the ob. I have tried this and it doesn't work well for me except on some shots.
 
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