Player Management Advice......

Beware_of_Dawg

Beware_of_Dawg

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Silver Member
So... Here's the situation...

Im the capt on a pool team, I have the city tournament coming up in less than a month...

Team is 8 people. 3 high skill level (SL6+) 3 medium level (SL4's) 2 low (SL2-3)...

In this situation as many of you know the medium skill level players are key...

I need to be confident about 2 high level, 2 medium level and 1 low per match...

my problem is in the medium SL area, I have 1 player who is a longtime team member and prior to the last several sessions had been a reliable player...

Over the last several sessions he has been well under 50% and is currently at a 30% clip...

this player has a decent shot/eye... He can make balls no doubt, but he makes horrible choices... and the real problem that compounds it is that he takes offers of "a coach" as a insult or something... Never wants to be coached.

So i've sat back and watched (and others on the team have watched and without prompting asked me "what is he doing (thinking)"? and watched him make terrible choices at the table... Rather than deal with him being indignant about getting a coach... or worse missing after a coach and being convinced he would have made his version of the shot.

I have to rely on this guy, he will play there is no way around it... But I am at my wits end as far as what to do to with him so far as coaching, or practicing for the next couple weeks leading up to regionals...

WHat would you do here? Im going to have a sit-down with him about this and hope he understands cause I am going to lay this down on the table... exactly as I explained it above and hope he is compliant and open to understanding that I am trying a make a constructive suggestrion on behalf of the team and this is in no way personal... Any gems of wisdom or anyone else dealt with this type of situation/personailty and have some suggestions?
 
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It's just league. The less fun you make it for him the worse the results will be and he will prob quit and youll lose a friend. It's 9-ball so unless he's getting beat 20-0 even if he pulls a 15-5, your team should be able to fade that. It's a 5 man team not a one person show.
 
mikeyfrost said:
It's just league. The less fun you make it for him the worse the results will be and he will prob quit and youll lose a friend. It's 9-ball so unless he's getting beat 20-0 even if he pulls a 15-5, your team should be able to fade that. It's a 5 man team not a one person show.
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ROFLMAO.

No offense of course but, I dont even know how to respond to that.
 
If you have to play him, make sure it's early in the match so you know exactly what the damage is. Since your post says you have 3 4's, I'd consider playing the bad 4 once then stuffing him on the bench for the rest of regionals.
 
TimKrazyMon said:
If you have to play him, make sure it's early in the match so you know exactly what the damage is. Since your post says you have 3 4's, I'd consider playing the bad 4 once then stuffing him on the bench for the rest of regionals.
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well the player Im talking about is just in an extended funk... At one point he was a very good 4. He's just difficult to communicate with as he seems to take things personally so snapping him out of this funk is tough and just hasn't happened.
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
well the player Im talking about is just in an extended funk... At one point he was a very good 4. He's just difficult to communicate with as he seems to take things personally so snapping him out of this funk is tough and just hasn't happened.
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"Benching" can be a very powerful motivational tool.
 
DoubleD said:
This is not the time to do anything. You've had all season to help him get better and over being coached--you haven't done that and that is ultimately your fault, not his.

If you have to play him, he has to feel he has the support of everybody on the team.

Buck up, hope for the best and give him your full support.

dld
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He does have my full support, & he knows it.

Everyone on the team does, and they know it.

guess, Im not sure why I asked here... I know you guys dont know me, my players and the dynamics of the situation and Im pretty confident we will be fine. He's a good player in a bad funk, if there is anything I can do to help, I will. Ultimately, he has to want or ask for the help though.

I certainly don't know everything, and can't guarentee what is the right shot for him. But, I have to try to help if I can.
 
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Beware_of_Dawg said:
So... Here's the situation...

Im the capt on a pool team, I have the city tournament coming up in less than a month...

Team is 8 people. 3 high skill level (SL6+) 3 medium level (SL4's) 2 low (SL2-3)...

In this situation as many of you know the medium skill level players are key...

I need to be confident about 2 high level, 2 medium level and 1 low per match...

my problem is in the medium SL area, I have 1 player who is a longtime team member and prior to the last several sessions had been a reliable player...

Over the last several sessions he has been well under 50% and is currently at a 30% clip...

this player has a decent shot/eye... He can make balls no doubt, but he makes horrible choices... and the real problem that compounds it is that he takes offers of "a coach" as a insult or something... Never wants to be coached.

So i've sat back and watched (and others on the team have watched and without prompting asked me "what is he doing (thinking)"? and watched him make terrible choices at the table... Rather than deal with him being indignant about getting a coach... or worse missing after a coach and being convinced he would have made his version of the shot.

I have to rely on this guy, he will play there is no way around it... But I am at my wits end as far as what to do to with him so far as coaching, or practicing for the next couple weeks leading up to regionals...

WHat would you do here? Im going to have a sit-down with him about this and hope he understands cause I am going to lay this down on the table... exactly as I explained it above and hope he is compliant and open to understanding that I am trying a make a constructive suggestrion on behalf of the team and this is in no way personal... Any gems of wisdom or anyone else dealt with this type of situation/personailty and have some suggestions?
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At this point all you can do is try to match him up with someone you know he can beat. This means you don't put him up when it's your call you match him to what the other team throws.

I'm in a similar situation with a couple players on my team. One guy melts down easily and will blame the environment or the noise or whatever. The other is, to be quite honest a bit mentally handicapped (literally), and has some physical issues as well. When he's playing good he's like a savant, but that hasn't been the case since last year before we got to Vegas. I try not to over coach either of these guys because they just don't do well being coached. When I do call a time out, I ask them what they're planning to do and then offer an opinion, and suggest a different strategy or try to help them do what they want successfully. In the end they pull the trigger and the chips fall where they may.

Try not to order them about, or give them the "you should have shot...." play by play after the fact. It's a team and everyone should have the same goal.

You might also tell your friend that you will refrain from calling the T.O. unless you think it's absolutely necessary.

Don't wait until he's down on the shot before you call him.

Good luck, hope to see you in Vegas (assuming you're playing APA)


:cool:
 
I agree

;)
TimKrazyMon said:
If you have to play him, make sure it's early in the match so you know exactly what the damage is. Since your post says you have 3 4's, I'd consider playing the bad 4 once then stuffing him on the bench for the rest of regionals.
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Play him FIRST, give him some words of advice, like play hard, play smart.
Then after the match, you know exactly where you are at and what has to be made up, hell he might even surprise you and win?;);)
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
So... Here's the situation...

Im the capt on a pool team, I have the city tournament coming up in less than a month...

Team is 8 people. 3 high skill level (SL6+) 3 medium level (SL4's) 2 low (SL2-3)...

In this situation as many of you know the medium skill level players are key...

I need to be confident about 2 high level, 2 medium level and 1 low per match...

my problem is in the medium SL area, I have 1 player who is a longtime team member and prior to the last several sessions had been a reliable player...

Over the last several sessions he has been well under 50% and is currently at a 30% clip...

this player has a decent shot/eye... He can make balls no doubt, but he makes horrible choices... and the real problem that compounds it is that he takes offers of "a coach" as a insult or something... Never wants to be coached.

So i've sat back and watched (and others on the team have watched and without prompting asked me "what is he doing (thinking)"? and watched him make terrible choices at the table... Rather than deal with him being indignant about getting a coach... or worse missing after a coach and being convinced he would have made his version of the shot.

I have to rely on this guy, he will play there is no way around it... But I am at my wits end as far as what to do to with him so far as coaching, or practicing for the next couple weeks leading up to regionals...

WHat would you do here? Im going to have a sit-down with him about this and hope he understands cause I am going to lay this down on the table... exactly as I explained it above and hope he is compliant and open to understanding that I am trying a make a constructive suggestrion on behalf of the team and this is in no way personal... Any gems of wisdom or anyone else dealt with this type of situation/personailty and have some suggestions?
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It takes players a long time to become good at understanding the shot to play. I pretty much always make my shots as simple as the game can be played (9-ball).

Its him at the table, and you can't tell him what shot to play. What's high percentage to me might be low percentage to you and vice versa.

As long as the player is trying to get better, then it should be good enough for you.

Most league players play safe far too much. 9-ball is an aggressive game where fortune favours the bold. Be bold but not foolish. If you think he is being foolish, just talk about pool with him and what to do in certain situations and make him think and address those issues without making it about him.
 
IMO all league players have to be open to coaching. If they won't take advice from someone who is merely equal speed, they definitely should from guys 1 or 2 or 3 levels above them.

If you're the strongest player on the team ask him why he won't take advice from you, and stress that his refusal to be coached is hurting the team. It's fine if he wants to 'experiment' on his own time, but not when he's part of a team that's depending on him. Stress that he might actually learn something that brings up his game.

If he still seems resistant, be polite, pretend you're ok with it. Try to keep him in a decent positive mindset so he can at least show up and do okay at the regionals. Fighting with him on it won't get you a better player or stronger team. Then ditch him next season until he grows up.
 
You didnt scefiy if your playing 8 ball you have 2 choices.
1. match him up against the other teams best player. This does 2 things. one it takes out their best player with your weak-link. If he has a great night and beats him you just stole a point. If he loses, he is losing a point that you only had a 50/50 or less chance at winning anyway, plus it frees up your best shooter to play thier 2nd best which will be a better matchup for you.
2. match him up against a 2-3 that you feel he can beat.

for 9 ball your options are more limited. If you play him against a 5 or higher it sounds like you run the risk of him getting blown out and putting you in a big hole. A 18-2 loss is hard to come back from during playoffs with a race to 51 point. But the flip side of that is that playing him against a 2-3 he can beat, your gonna have to play one of your 2-3 against a 4, 5 or higher. I think you have to play him against a 4 so its an evan race and hop e for the best, even a 12-8 lose doesnt hurt that bad.
 
it's 9 ball.

throwing off had occured to me. If things dont improve I may consider that. but as was mentioned, an absolute blow out (18-2, 17-3) could be catastrophic.
 
Another idea to consider is to suggest to this player to shoot more safeties. Best way to get out of a slump is getting ball in hand.
 
DelaWho??? said:
When I do call a time out, I ask them what they're planning to do and then offer an opinion, and suggest a different strategy or try to help them do what they want successfully. In the end they pull the trigger and the chips fall where they may.

Try not to order them about, or give them the "you should have shot...." play by play after the fact. It's a team and everyone should have the same goal.
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I used to hate being coached by one of my first APA captains because he would always come up to the table after I had pocketed 3 or 4 balls and had a good shot at running out and he would want to make sure I "finished the rack out and didn't screw it up". This was very defeating and didn't promote my best game. I now enjoy a chance to discuss my different options with another player when I don't think my path is clear cut. As a player I call for my coach to help keep me from getting into trouble or a tight spot, as opposed to help me get out of trouble once I've made a bad shot selection.

Point is, as the coach/captain you need to help him see the value of coaches and help him bring out his best game. Ask yourself what you could do differently to help him bring his "A" game, and not get discouraged/disgruntled/defeated.

This is not his "fault" or a change that he needs to make. There is a gap in communication between the two of you that is causing him to shoot under his abilities.

Also, sometimes personalities don't mesh and it may be time for him to find a different team. IMHO.
 
Does he absolutely have to see the table? I have had similar situations and when a player like this refuses coaching he is hurting everyone on the team not only in the match but also from a developmental aspect. A player of your caliber probably plays alot of pool outside of league, but for some of your teammates, this is their pool world. For alot of players APA is their pool world and they play in the league to try to get to Vegas. As that being the goal, your responsibility as captain is to put the team in the best position to achieve that goal and if this player is not contributing towards that common goal, then they need not see the table. Is this 4 shooting in a slump and not taking coaching advice really 5 or 6 balls (dont remember what the ball counts are) better than your 3. Remember, 23 is the ceiling, but you do not have to play 23 especially in 9 ball where the handicap has more of an effect than 8 ball.
 
K Knight said:
I used to hate being coached by one of my first APA captains because he would always come up to the table after I had pocketed 3 or 4 balls and had a good shot at running out and he would want to make sure I "finished the rack out and didn't screw it up". This was very defeating and didn't promote my best game. I now enjoy a chance to discuss my different options with another player when I don't think my path is clear cut. As a player I call for my coach to help keep me from getting into trouble or a tight spot, as opposed to help me get out of trouble once I've made a bad shot selection.

Point is, as the coach/captain you need to help him see the value of coaches and help him bring out his best game. Ask yourself what you could do differently to help him bring his "A" game, and not get discouraged/disgruntled/defeated.

This is not his "fault" or a change that he needs to make. There is a gap in communication between the two of you that is causing him to shoot under his abilities.

Also, sometimes personalities don't mesh and it may be time for him to find a different team. IMHO.
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Good points, I'm not calling a timeout for a pep talk. If I call one, I only do it when I think the player is making a critical error or it is obvious that they are stuck. I would prefer not to have to coach at all or have the player call a time out on themselves when they are stuck. In general let them play.


My advice was also geared more toward 8 ball, 9 ball is pretty straight forward on which ball you are shooting, the exception being a player lining up on the wrong side of the ball in a ball in hand situation.

:cool:
 
I dont make stupid coaching interuptions. I generally allow the player to play his/her game... if they want a coach or they look confused, at times I will say "do you want to talk about it?".... and at the begiining of a coach my first question has always been "so, what are you thinking? what shot(s) are you considering?"... after they tell me... (if they were thinking anything at all, lol.) I will ask the... " well, what do you think about this option... I'll explain, and then ask "do you feel good about that?"... That's the standard template of how I handle coaching...
 
"Coaching" is an interesting topic and probably deserves a separate thread. I am not a very good player, not trying to fool anybody. As a point of reference after 3 matches in my first APA 9 ball league I'm a level 6.

I welcome coaching from players who know what they are doing but there are a lot of people both in and out of the pool world who have a much higher opinion of their own advice than is merited by their ability. Simply put, I have had some complete idiots try to coach me and there is no upside to it. It is more of a shark than any form of help.

Your best bet with this player is probably to wait until his match is over and then go over a couple of situations with him where he might have done something differently. Perhaps he will then realize the benefit of your advice and be more willing to accept coaching during a match.

But then, I'm just a banger.
 
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