Playing cue with phenolic tip... anyone?

nineballsafety8

nineballsafety8

6ft 5" 285, hits 'em hard
Silver Member
So, i was messing around in the basement the other night, and not really sure why, but decided to play some racks with my break cue. It turns out, that as long as you chalk between every shot (which is part of my pre-shot routine anyway) you can do almost anything with phenolic that you can with a normal tip.
Other than the strange sound that it makes, it found that i actually really enjoyed the way my break cue played. I got good action with the cueball, it made me focus on making a good hit way more than i normally would, and the amount of spin i was able to achieve was quite frankly almost scary.
Just curious if anyone else has ever played with this idea? I am almost considering having a shaft made for one of my sneaky petes with a canvas phenolic tip/ferrule combo, just to play around with for a while.

My biggest "question" is whether or not phenolic "can actually play that well", or whether because i was so focused on making a truly good hit on the CB that is really honed in on my mechanics, and FORCED ME to make it play that well...


Just curious what your thoughts are?
please share.
 
nineballsafety8 said:
So, i was messing around in the basement the other night, and not really sure why, but decided to play some racks with my break cue. It turns out, that as long as you chalk between every shot (which is part of my pre-shot routine anyway) you can do almost anything with phenolic that you can with a normal tip.
Other than the strange sound that it makes, it found that i actually really enjoyed the way my break cue played. I got good action with the cueball, it made me focus on making a good hit way more than i normally would, and the amount of spin i was able to achieve was quite frankly almost scary.
Just curious if anyone else has ever played with this idea? I am almost considering having a shaft made for one of my sneaky petes with a canvas phenolic tip/ferrule combo, just to play around with for a while.

My biggest "question" is whether or not phenolic "can actually play that well", or whether because i was so focused on making a truly good hit on the CB that is really honed in on my mechanics, and FORCED ME to make it play that well...


Just curious what your thoughts are?
please share.
Click to expand...

As far as the spin I don't think you are correct.

The softer the tip the longer it is in contact with the cueball. This imparts more spin. The harder the tip the less spin it can impart. Maybe your form was just dead on because you were concentrating on it more.

I personally wouldn't use a phenolic tip on a playing cue because every shot has the potential to miscue if not hit perfectly and you will eventually screw up.
 
zpele said:
As far as the spin I don't think you are correct.

The softer the tip the longer it is in contact with the cueball. This imparts more spin. The harder the tip the less spin it can impart. Maybe your form was just dead on because you were concentrating on it more.

I personally wouldn't use a phenolic tip on a playing cue because every shot has the potential to miscue if not hit perfectly and you will eventually screw up.
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For the average player, i would agree with your statement. But part of my interest in playing with phenolic is to "tighten up" on my mechanics. I know that if i can consistently get out (using spin) on a phenolic tip. That when the time comes, and i have a "normal" tip install... miscueing should NEVER be an issue.
 
nineballsafety8 said:
For the average player, i would agree with your statement. But part of my interest in playing with phenolic is to "tighten up" on my mechanics. I know that if i can consistently get out (using spin) on a phenolic tip. That when the time comes, and i have a "normal" tip install... miscueing should NEVER be an issue.
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Well yes it might be a good practice routine. One of the problems I see though is that break tips are usually pretty flat. Have you shaped the tip?
 
zpele said:
Well yes it might be a good practice routine. One of the problems I see though is that break tips are usually pretty flat. Have you shaped the tip?
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I never really thought about that, but yes. I use a break/jump, and I like to use "spin" when I jump. I tend to jump/draw most of my jump shots, and that is hard to do with a flatter tip. So I always reshape my phenolic to between a nickel and dime. I also do this with 80 grit paper to get a little more "texture" on the face of the tip to hold more chalk.
 
Zpele, in the past I would have agreed with you on a soft tip getting more "spin", but I have a feeling some people will chime in on this from the other side.

I've gone to harder tips this past year and the action I've gotten on the cueball has most definitely increased. However, I'm sure there are mutiple other factors to consider as well.

I don't have a scientific argument for you, I'm just hoping this sparks an informative discussion.
 
As one from the other side, a softer tip does not stay on the cueball longer or impart more spin on the cueball. Dr Dave has a number of high speed vids that show this.

I have played some with my phenolic breaker as a diversion mostly. Maybe the Renfro will chime in cause I believe he plays with a phenolic tip exclusively.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
 
I have done something similar to what you are talking about. I got into a habit of using too much english on my shots. In an attempt to cure this I would use a break cue with a phenolic tip and play a few racks like that. Making sure to stay close to center ball and try to eliminate my use of extreme english. I din not chalk as often as you mentioned.

Was it a great idea, eh, it was ok. Did it work? Yes, for the most part. It helped me focus more on my tip placement and how to maneuver the cue ball without using so much english.

But as far as using it as a everyday player, personally I say no. I wouldn't like it at all. But if you like then that's all that matters.

If I had my choice I would rather see all phenolic tips outlawed. They damage the cue balls and honestly I think they make it too easy to get out of a good hook. The game was more fun, I thought, before jump cues and phenolic tips. Oh well, each to their own I guess. I have one myself just to keep up with the competition!
 
My buddy used to play with his phenolic tipped break cue as one of the spots he would give, slowed him down a little but seems to work well.......he'd also offer to play with his jump cue as a spot.

As for playing with it consistantly, if it helps you focus on your mechanics it may be a good thing but in the long run it would seem to me you would be better off just doing some drills and video taping yourself to see what your problems are.......


just my 2 cents
 
One of the places I play there are a couple of corners where you can't use a full length cue when the CB is right on the rail (unless you like to shoot all jacked up). For these shots, I use my 41" jump cue. Over time, I have found that, with a deliberate stroke, I can apply 60%-70% of the english (left, right) and 30%-40% of the follow/draw as I can with a regular playing tip on my regular playing cue.

So, you can get a lot of spin on the CB, but you can't get as much as you can with you regular play cue. You cann't, for example, put enough draw to bringthe CB up table, bounce off the end rail and get 1/2 way back down table--like I can with the lay cue. But, excepting for the very extremes, it does all right.
 
fathomblue said:
Zpele, in the past I would have agreed with you on a soft tip getting more "spin", but I have a feeling some people will chime in on this from the other side.

I've gone to harder tips this past year and the action I've gotten on the cueball has most definitely increased. However, I'm sure there are mutiple other factors to consider as well.

I don't have a scientific argument for you, I'm just hoping this sparks an informative discussion.
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I've been experimenting lately and I've come to the same conclusion. I also seem to get more spin with a harder tip. First off, the idea that the softer tip stays in contact longer appears to be debatable. But what does seem to be happening for me is that the harder tip transfers more energy, so on a draw shot (for example) I get more backspin at any given stroke speed. Just a guess, but a harder tip does seem to produce more draw for me. It sounds logical anyway. After all, more transfer of energy is the reason phenolic is preferred for breaking, right?

Not that I'd go to phenolic though. You still need a tip with good grip on the cue ball to initiate the spin and I just don't think phenolic is as good as leather in that department. I also doubt you can go as far out from center as with a good leather tip.
 
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fathomblue said:
Zpele, in the past I would have agreed with you on a soft tip getting more "spin", but I have a feeling some people will chime in on this from the other side.

I've gone to harder tips this past year and the action I've gotten on the cueball has most definitely increased. However, I'm sure there are mutiple other factors to consider as well.

I don't have a scientific argument for you, I'm just hoping this sparks an informative discussion.
Click to expand...

IMO there is significantly more action from a harder tip. I have no scientific answer, but if I were to venture a guess, I'd say it was for the exact reason Zpele said a softer tip had more action.

The tip stays on the CB longer and provides additional friction for the CB to fight as it tries to spin backwards. Like a disc brake pad rubbing on a rotor.

Now, I dunno .... I'm just sayin .... :smile:
 
I myself agree with a harder tip making more english.I have installed and played with most every tip out there and I have always gone back to a hard tip.I currently use the kamui black hard and a moori hard.
 
I shoot with a bk2 just like the renfro, we both discussed that there is more energy transfer with the phenolic tip, but yes you can be more susceptible to miscuing if you get too outside center...but I still can go pretty far outside and not miscue..after awhile you get used to how it hits and feels

I love the hard hit and consistent feel of the phenolic tip...and I can move the cue ball around the table better than most who use leather tips..
The only thing is a miscue every so often, so I bought kamui chalk and am actually going to try a tiger icebreaker tip since it has the leather core to give a little more grip for me but still have the power of the phenolic..

People say I'm crazy shooting with it, but it's all what you like and what feels right to you.
 
Tony_in_MD said:
As one from the other side, a softer tip does not stay on the cueball longer or impart more spin on the cueball. Dr Dave has a number of high speed vids that show this.

I have played some with my phenolic breaker as a diversion mostly. Maybe the Renfro will chime in cause I believe he plays with a phenolic tip exclusively.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.
Click to expand...

Had a huge answer posted but AZ ate it with the Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

Please push the back button and reload the previous window.

Short Answer..... If you want to play with phenolic spring for the Kamui.... The key is in energy transfer and contact patch size....
Phenolic beats leather just like rock beats scissors....

Soft vs Hard in leather means very little.....

I have been testing tips recently and hardness has less effect on english than the type of leather chosen...

If you use leather more english comes from the leather type with the most resilience or COR..... Best to worst... Japanese Pig, Pig, Veg Tanned Cow, Chrome Tanned Cow, Water Buffalo.... Samasara epoxy impregnates leather so it has higher COR than any of the others... It sits between phenolic and leather... Adhesive type can also have positive and negative effects on COR in layered tips but here I will digress....

Phenolic comes in different grades.... Bk2 and Mezz phenolics are chosen based on their COR testing.......

I may come back and expand upon everything later after I am over being pissed off at the site..... Still don't know how I could have logged in since my previous page was loaded since I was pecking away at my post.......
 
I have never played with a phenolic tip. But back in the day the general idea was that a softer tip was more forgiving and a harder tip was less forgiving. One could play better with a harder tip, it was thought, but one needed the skills to do it. When I say play better I mean produce more controlled spin, when needed/wanted. Generally as one improved one tended to move up to successively harder tips. That was one school of thought among many of course, but I personally bought into it and found it true for myself.

As an example, if you look at a masse cue, which is intended to impart a really serious amount of very controlled spin to a cue ball, it has a very hard tip. But it takes a lot of practice to accomplish what such a cue and tip is capable of without miscues or wildly uncontrolled spin.
 
Dont get me wrong, its not that i am saying i want to switch to playing with phenolic ALL the time. I just think that it is a valuable tool that i think i will be adding to my case.
Am I going to play with my break cue, no (unless i have to). Am i going to go around offering to give it up as a spot, no. Am i going to say that it plays as well as my normal tipped cue, hell no.

But i am going to add a shaft with a phenolic tip to my case, for my sneaky pete. I will use it for drills, i will use it for playing on astro turf, and i will use it on occasion to add some dynamic to my ability.

If you cant adapt to your playing conditions, than you cant play.
 
Chopdoc said:
As an example, if you look at a masse cue, which is intended to impart a really serious amount of very controlled spin to a cue ball, it has a very hard tip. But it takes a lot of practice to accomplish what such a cue and tip is capable of without miscues or wildly uncontrolled spin.
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Chop, MD - good point about the masse cue, designed to produce max spin, using a hard tip. That coincides with my experience about harder tips.
 
ok... lets pose another question...?

Everybody is on the kamui train, and moori always has a strong following, and the new onyx is often talked about... and i happen to be in love with the emerald

what is the "hottest" or "best" HARD tip out there? I'm not talking about break tips like the samsara or the icebreaker... im talking about normal leather, layered tips... with a HARD rating... because i have tried the Moori hard, and never miscued more in my life. I have 500% better luch playing with straight phenolic than i did with the Moori H.

Just curious what thoughts were out there.

the only "hard" tip i have ever personally tried was the water buffalo, and it "frayed" really bad after about a month.
 
I play a little with my break cue from time to time just for the fun of it. Just cause it does make you think about your stroke, position play and speed a bit more. Thing you "should" always be thinking about but don't cause you know you can get yourself out of trouble later. ;)

I think people would be surprised how much spin you can still get with a phenoloc tip although obviously you can't get nearly as much as you can with leather but enough to grt most jobs done while keeping it 'simple' which is the point.

Try a kamui black hard. That's what I play. Very hard but very good. :)
 
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