PLEASE READ old westinghouse micarta

Tommyd1 said:
I believe I got the Original Westinghouse Micarta Ferrule from Joe Blackburn at the Expo a few weeks ago.

It was VERY EXPENSIVE.

I have been dealing with Joe for some time and I do not think he would in any way be mis-representative about what he sold me.

He showed me examples of what other people were selling as the real thing, then he showed me what he said was the real stuff.

I watched as he turned my ferrule, it started out as the same yellow shade that it ended up after he turned it to size.

My ferrule is definitely YELLOW.

And - Oh yeah - It does have a really nice hit - well worth the cost !!!


Tommyd1
Click to expand...

THIS IS WHAT ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA LOOKS LIKE EVEN AFTER IT TURNS. THE ASBESTOS BASED STUFF IS YELLOW BY THIS TIME, ALL THE WAY THROUGH AND WILL NOT TURN WHITE EVEN WHEN FRESHLY CUT.

THE STUFF KNIFEMAKER HAS IS MICARTA, AND IS MADE BY WESTINGHOUSE, BUT AS I STATED, IMO, IT'S NOT THE ASBESTOS BASED EXPENSIVE MATERIAL THAT IS DESIRED BY CUEMAKERS. IT IS THE MICARTA THAT WAS USED BY SCHON AND OTHERS IN THE 80'S THAT IS PAPER BASED. STILL A NICE MATERIAL, BUT NOT THE SAME AS THE ORIGINAL.

YOU GUYS BUY AS YOU WISH, BUT I WANTED TO SHARE THE INFORMATION I HAVE. THESE AREN'T ASSUMPTIONS BY ME, THIS IS A SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON OF THE 2 MATERIALS, AS WELL AS 4 OTHER YELOWISH MICARTAS THAT I HAVE HERE.

BUY AS YOU WISH, I KNEW I SHOUDN'T HAVE HAD ANY COCERNS ABOUT WHAT OTHERS DO, BUT FELT THAT THIS INFORMATION NEEDED TO BE MADE PUBLIC.

I'LL BE SENDING MINE BACK FOR A REFUND THAT KNIFEMAKER OFFERED, WHICH WAS NICE OF HIM TO DO, CONSIDERING HE NEVER STATED IT WAS THE ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL, IT WAS JUST IMPLIED THAT IT WAS.

Marcus

P.S. ALL MICARTA IS MADE BY WESTINGHOUSE, IT'S A REGISTERED TRADEMARK FOR THE MATERIAL THEY INVENTED/DEVELOPED, BUT THE BASE MATERIAL HAS CHANGED SEVERAL TIMES THROUGH THE YEARS.
 
Micarta

For what it's worth...........my Dad was a knifemaker and used Micarta.It is a laminate and can be based on paper,linen,canvas and from what I just read here,asbestos.
It is pressed and injected with a phenolic resin (plastic).
I play with a Runde cue with a Micarta ferrule,but the cue is a 2007 and I don't know the age of the Micarta.I also have other Runde shafts with Ivory ferrules,and I'll take the Ivory any time for a sweet hit.The Micarta ferrule does have a nice hit too,just not as "sharp" as the Ivory.
Thanks for reading this,and have a great nite.
Marc
 
The ONLY way to know for sure, is to TEST the material. I don't believe anyone can determine whether or not asbestos is in the material, simply by looking at it. Certainly, those with extensive experience with the material have a better idea, but even they can't be certain. Materials could age/yellow, etc differently depending on how they have been stored over the years, exposure to light, etc.

Personally, I have actually known people who died from mesothelioma, so I actually prefer that the material NOT contain asbestos.

Having been in the Navy long ago, I am always concerned about the possibilities of my past exposure...heck, we used to pull the crap off the walls and floors with our hands, shovels, etc...no masks, gloves or anything else. Who knew that it was poison...certainly not us.

Here is another lab that offers sample testing and Express service:

http://www.prolabinc.com/instructions/asbestos.html

Joe
 
I am taking care of the test already and will you know the results when done. I am not selling anymore until then and maybe not then either.
I have no doubt what it is and posted a picture of the label.
I am sorry for the trouble to the ones that want it now. The ones that have ordered it will get theirs after I checkit to ease everyones mind.
The man that knows more about it than anyone in the country says it is the original like I said, but I am buying the kiot to test it for everyones sake. Billy Schick will have a piece in a few days and he know a lot about it also.
Hang in there folks as the daytime drama of is it or isn't it plays out.
Thanks everyone
Percy
 
Bamacues said:
The ONLY way to know for sure, is to TEST the material. I don't believe anyone can determine whether or not asbestos is in the material, simply by looking at it. Certainly, those with extensive experience with the material have a better idea, but even they can't be certain. Materials could age/yellow, etc differently depending on how they have been stored over the years, exposure to light, etc.
snip...
Click to expand...

Agreed Joe. Thanks for jumping through the hoops Percy.
I'm asuming that Dale doesn't feel that he should stick his nose in, although he IS an expert on the topic.
Mr H
 
This was a great read. A lot to know about micarta. I'm glad to know that it was a great ideal too keep my custom knifes under glass for all these years. Their handles are beautiful though. :)
 
Fastnloose is making a good point, although it's true that what knifemaker has is "micrata", it may not be the asbestos stuff, and in the pictures he posted, it does look different. Maybe it was cut at a different angle, but the one on the right does not have the same grain as the left. And the texture of it looks different (the one on the right which is asbestos looks to have a finer texture, the one on the right looks more like ivory than something pressed from smaller particles).

This is like the Pontiac LeMans they re-introduced, the new model was some tiny hatch-back, the original was a large 4-door 6 cylinder sedan. Both LeMans, and yet, not the same.

Either way, I don't think knifemaker misrepresented his sale knowingly and should not be dinged for it. Especially since there are people using what he sold and are happy with the result.
 
I've been using the paper based stuff and it still plays great. No knock against the real stuff....

tim
 
I got some coming in the mail, and I'm going to install one first thing. I have an old shaft with an old yellow micarta ferrule and I will give my opinion after I test it out.
 
Micarta

It was ordered white. The color means nothing. If memory serves me right Danny Janes had it produced. Please rember I hit my head monday and have a concussion.
I may have been the first posted to describe the Micarta as Westinghouse not GE micarta. I think also the white was produced round and not in blocks when specifecly ordered.
White was available.
Nick :)
 
Here's an old article about the differences that I think Bob from DZ Cues wrote.

http://www.dzcues.com/ferrules.htm

If you click on the pics and then maximize the size, you can see the difference in the Micarta types. The newer types all have a definite cloth pattern, where the old asbestos type just had asbestos fibers which were either smooth or with very little random pattern. As has been previously mentioned, the color changed with time and UV exposure. I worked in a plastic company for many years and have seen the old asbestos type that was white and eventually turned yellow, as well as old stock that was yellow on the outside, but was white when cut (then eventually the white yellowed, too).

I wish I had been into cues at the time, as we threw a bunch of the old stuff out when our customers started going to non-asbestos parts when the mesothelioma scares started. Some asbestos is very bad and is definitely the primary cause of mesothelioma. Unfortunately, the scare went too far and lots of asbestos was taken off the market uneccesarily like it was inherently carcinogenic or toxic. That's not the case, as the real danger with asbestos is inhalation. The asbestos particles look like broadhead arrows under a microscope and cut the hell out of the lungs and respiratory system upon ingestion. After the asbestos is bound, either with plastic or rubber (gasketing material) it is harmless unless ground up or machined into dust again. Asbestos has never really been successfully replaced, as the heat resistant capabilities can only be matched with much higher priced and usually harder to fabricate materials such as graphite, ceramics, fiberglass, etc. The bad thing is that somewhere along the line someone still has to handle the asbestos until it is "bound". Existing material is not inherently bad until it is machined or ground and now we have much better respirators and dust collection equipment than we did pre-ban.

Steve
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
THIS IS WHAT ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA LOOKS LIKE EVEN AFTER IT TURNS. THE ASBESTOS BASED STUFF IS YELLOW BY THIS TIME, ALL THE WAY THROUGH AND WILL NOT TURN WHITE EVEN WHEN FRESHLY CUT......
Click to expand...


I AM SORRY MARCUS, BUT THIS IS TOTALLY INACCURATE.

If you remember, I bought a "Micarta" ferrule from you and it looked like the ones you have pictured - very yellow. That material turned out to be the linen based alternateve as seen in the Micarta section here: http://dzcues.com/ferrules.htm. In the pic of the three ferrules, Mine is the top cue; that is the ferrule I purchased from you. Obviously not what I wanted from you, and you recieved a PM from me. I did not want my money back, I just wanted to share the info with you.

In the next section, Bob machines a "true, real deal" Micarta ferrule. That material was also provided by me. I secured the sheet of micarta from a very well known cuemaker. I will not release his name, as I dont not want him inundated with requests for the stuff. If you want to know, you can PM me. As you can see, real Micarta is yellow from age on the outside. When machined, it prduces a nice creamy off white - much like ivory. That is why it was used initially, as an alternative to ivory.

I will not speak on the material knifemaker is selling, as I dont have any...YET. I am in line for some - that may speak for itself.

Josh
 
Buster8001 said:
I AM SORRY MARCUS, BUT THIS IS TOTALLY INACCURATE.

If you remember, I bought a "Micarta" ferrule from you and it looked like the ones you have pictured - very yellow. That material turned out to be the linen based alternateve as seen in the Micarta section here: http://dzcues.com/ferrules.htm. In the pic of the three ferrules, Mine is the top cue; that is the ferrule I purchased from you. Obviously not what I wanted from you, and you recieved a PM from me. I did not want my money back, I just wanted to share the info with you.

In the next section, Bob machines a "true, real deal" Micarta ferrule. That material was also provided by me. I secured the sheet of micarta from a very well known cuemaker. I will not release his name, as I dont not want him inundated with requests for the stuff. If you want to know, you can PM me. As you can see, real Micarta is yellow from age on the outside. When machined, it prduces a nice creamy off white - much like ivory. That is why it was used initially, as an alternative to ivory.

I will not speak on the material knifemaker is selling, as I dont have any...YET. I am in line for some - that may speak for itself.

Josh
Click to expand...

Additionally, check out this thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=183044&highlight=Micarta. Start at post 14. PDCue weighs in on the subject. He is regarded as the AZ "authority". He even states the appearance characteristics. Read further for more info.

All should also check out the Micarta section over at: http://dzcues.com/ferrules.htm for more information.

Josh
 
Buster8001 said:
I AM SORRY MARCUS, BUT THIS IS TOTALLY INACCURATE.

If you remember, I bought a "Micarta" ferrule from you and it looked like the ones you have pictured - very yellow. That material turned out to be the linen based alternateve as seen in the Micarta section here: http://dzcues.com/ferrules.htm. In the pic of the three ferrules, Mine is the top cue; that is the ferrule I purchased from you. Obviously not what I wanted from you, and you recieved a PM from me. I did not want my money back, I just wanted to share the info with you.

In the next section, Bob machines a "true, real deal" Micarta ferrule. That material was also provided by me. I secured the sheet of micarta from a very well known cuemaker. I will not release his name, as I dont not want him inundated with requests for the stuff. If you want to know, you can PM me. As you can see, real Micarta is yellow from age on the outside. When machined, it prduces a nice creamy off white - much like ivory. That is why it was used initially, as an alternative to ivory.

I will not speak on the material knifemaker is selling, as I dont have any...YET. I am in line for some - that may speak for itself.

Josh
Click to expand...

THAT MATERIAL THAT I SENT YOU IS NOT THE MATERIAL THAT I USED IN THE COMPARISON PICTURES. THE STUFF I SENT YOU I GOT YEARS AFTER THE ONES IN THE PICTURES, AND I HADN'T REALLY INSPECTED IT, BECAUSE I TOOK THE SELLERS WORD.

WHEN YOU FOUND OUT IT WASN'T ASBESTOS BASED, I HAD LEARNED MY LESSON, AND DID MY DUE DILEGENCE TO DISCOVER ALL THE DIFFERENCES, AND ALL THE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN PASSED OFF AS THE ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL. THAT'S THE REASON THAT HAVE THE INFORMATION AND BACKGROUND THAT I HAVE NOW.

I CAN GLADLY POST PICTURES OF THE STUFF I SENT YOU, AND SHOW THAT IT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHER 2 PICTURED, AND IS ALSO DIFFERENT FROM THE OTHER MICARTAS I HAVE HERE.

LIKE I SAID, IT DOENS'T MATTER TO ME WHAT OTHERS DO AT THIS POINT, I TRIED TO SHARE MY INFORMATION, AND TO SHOW THAT THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERNCE BETWEEN THE STUFF I JUST GOT AND THE ASBESTOS BASED STUFF.

I SENT KNIFEMAKERS FERRULES BACK THIS MORNING SO I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET PICTURES ASIDE OF THOSE.

Marcus
 
Buster8001 said:
Additionally, check out this thread: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=183044&highlight=Micarta. Start at post 14. PDCue weighs in on the subject. He is regarded as the AZ "authority". He even states the appearance characteristics. Read further for more info.

All should also check out the Micarta section over at: http://dzcues.com/ferrules.htm for more information.

Josh
Click to expand...

JOSH,
I TALKED TO DALE TODAY, PM HIM FOR HIS OPINION ON THIS. I WON'T SPEAK FOR HIM.

Marcus
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
LIKE I SAID, IT DOENS'T MATTER TO ME WHAT OTHERS DO AT THIS POINT, I TRIED TO SHARE MY INFORMATION, AND TO SHOW THAT THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERNCE BETWEEN THE STUFF I JUST GOT AND THE ASBESTOS BASED STUFF.
I SENT KNIFEMAKERS FERRULES BACK THIS MORNING SO I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET PICTURES ASIDE OF THOSE.
Marcus
Click to expand...

Marcus,
Here are some pix of the micarta ferrules that I received for comparison.
Joe

Micartaferrules.jpg
[/IMG]
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
JOE,
CAN YOU SEE AN APPARENT "PATTERN/WEAVE" IN THE BASE MATERIAL?

Marcus
Click to expand...
My camera is only a 6mg point and shoot, and the macro could be better, but..

Very honestly, in a couple I can, in most, I can't. You can look at these. The top ones seem to have the sandwich look, while the bottom ones exhibit more of a cross-hatch pattern. I don't know if it has to do with how they were cut, the particular block, angle, cutter chatter, etc.

Joe
DSCF8847.jpg
[/IMG]
DSCF8848.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Bamacues said:
My camera is only a 6mg point and shoot, and the macro could be better, but..

Very honestly, in a couple I can, in most, I can't. You can look at these. The top ones seem to have the sandwich look, while the bottom ones exhibit more of a cross-hatch pattern. I don't know if it has to do with how they were cut, the particular block, angle, cutter chatter, etc.

Joe
DSCF8847.jpg
[/IMG]
DSCF8848.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

I CAN SEE IT IN YOUR PICTURES, THAT'S ALL I NEEDED.

LOOK AT THE SIDES, SOMETIMES IT'S MORE APPARENT THERE.

Marcus
 
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