PLEASE READ old westinghouse micarta

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

It was ordered white. The color means nothing. If memory serves me right Danny Janes had it produced. Please rember I hit my head monday and have a concussion.
I may have been the first posted to describe the Micarta as Westinghouse not GE micarta. I think also the white was produced round and not in blocks when specifecly ordered.
White was available.
Nick

I JUST SAW THIS POST......OR I WOULD HAVE REPLIED EARLIER.

NICK,
ASBESTOS TURNS YELLOW OVER TIME, AND THERE IS NO WAY TO KEEP IT WHITE, OR EVEN CREAMY WHITE. EVEN FRESHLY CUT, AT THIS POINT IT'S YELLOW.

MICARTA CAN BE PAPER BASED, AND THE NEWER STUFF IS. THE ORIGINAL STUFF WAS ASBESTOS BASED. THE MICARTA USED BY SCHON WAS PAPER BASED, AND CREAMY WHITE. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT MATERIAL AND THE ORIGINAL STUFF, IS THAT ORIGINALLY IT WAS ASBESTOS BASED.

I'M SURE DAN JANES ORDERED MICARTA AT SOME POINT, BUT WAS CERTAINLY NOT THE FIRST TO ORDER IT, CONSIDERING IT WAS USED IN OTHER INDUSTRIES LONG BEFORE CUEMAKERS STARTED USING IT.

MICARTA HAS BEEN PRODUCED IN BLOCKS, DISCS, TUBES, RODS, AND I'M SURE OTHER FORMS FOR SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS.

Marcus

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Member HDR10 suggest that I offer a refund minus a 5-10% plus minus the shipping. My statement to that is I have cut up over 1500.00 dollars worth of knife handle material to make these. I showed the picture of what I was selling and that is what I shipped. If I had misrepresented my product I could agree with his statement, but I did not. And also I did not cut this material up hoping to sell it, I cut it up after people ordered it.
I hope everyone that has spent money on this product likes it. It is exactly what I claimed it to be old yellow paper based westinghouse micarta. The label verifies that issue.
I don't misrep my knives and I didn't misrep this either.

Percy/Knifemaker

THAT'S THE ISSUE PERCY....... THE PAPER BASED STUFF ISN'T WHAT THE CUE GUYS CALL "OLD YELLOW"

"OLD YELLOW" MICARTA IS ASBESTOS BASED, AND THE MATERIAL THAT BRINGS $75-100 PER FERRULE THAT YOU KEPT MENTIONING.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE IN PM'S, YOUR MATERIAL IS SEMI-DESRIABLE, BUT IS NOT THE STUFF THAT THE GUYS ARE REALLY LOOKING FOR.

Marcus

 

[knifemaker]

Marcus why are you the only one that thinks this is not what people want.
Everyone that got it but YOU got what they wanted and is happy.
I never told anyone this stuff was worth 75.00+ per ferrule.
If that was the case I would have been selling it for that.
You looked at the picture and you ordered it. Then you said the stuff in the picture is not what you wanted or something like that. You got your money back, I know Marcu YOU are the only one on AZ that is concerned with what others are getting. You already stated you got yours back leave me alone about it.
Go back to whatever it is you do and I will go backto knifemaking.
Have a great weekend anyway.
Even though I am writing this I still feel no animosity toward you, you did what you thought was right and that is what I am doing.

Percy

 

[knifemaker]

Again as I have said before
The picture showed exactly what I was selling from several angles.
I did not hide a side, that is what I sold and that is what everyone got.
Percy

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Marcus why are you the only one that thinks this is not what people want.
Everyone that got it but YOU got what they wanted and is happy.
I never told anyone this stuff was worth 75.00+ per ferrule.
If that was the case I would have been selling it for that.
You looked at the picture and you ordered it. Then you said the stuff in the picture is not what you wanted or something like that. You got your money back, I know Marcu YOU are the only one on AZ that is concerned with what others are getting. You already stated you got yours back leave me alone about it.
Go back to whatever it is you do and I will go backto knifemaking.
Have a great weekend anyway.
Even though I am writing this I still feel no animosity toward you, you did what you thought was right and that is what I am doing.

Percy

THERE IS NO ANIMOSITY TOWARDS YOU EITHER, BUT I JUST HOPE PEOPLE KNOW AT THIS POINT WHAT THEY ARE BUYING. THEY ARE BUYING PAPER BASED MICARTA, AND NOT ASBESTOS BASED "OLD YELLOW" MICARTA LIKE THE THREAD TITLES STATE.

THE PEOPLE I HAVE GOTTEN PM'S AND E-MAILS FROM THOUGHT IT WAS THE ORIGINAL ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA, AND THANKED ME FOR THE HEADS UP.

I'M GLAD YOU HAVE SATISFIED CUSTOMERS, AND I'M GLAD THAT IT WAS THE PAPER BASED MATERIAL THAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR.

Marcus

 

[Craig Fales]

SINCE I WAS THE CAUSE FOR THIS THREAD, I WILL SPEAK UP AND MAKE A POST HERE.........

THE MATERIAL THAT WAS SENT TO ME BY "KNIFEMAKER" LOOKS TO BE THE MICARTA THAT WAS USED BY SCHON IN THE 1980'S. IT IS A GREAT PLAYING MATERIAL, AND IS A PAPER BASED PRODUCT THAT WAS MADE BY WESTINGHOUSE UNDER THE NAME MICARTA.

IMO, IT IS NOT THE ORIGINAL ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL THAT WAS USED BY SOUTHWEST AND KERSENBROCK, AS WELL AS MANY OTHER CUEMAKERS.

I HAVE PIECES OF EACH HERE, AS WELL AS OTHER "MICARTA" MATERIALS AND CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

LIKE I HAD SAID IN MY PM'S TO "KNIFEMAKER", I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT HE SOLD THIS MATERIAL WITH BAD INTENTIONS, JUST THAT THERE WAS MISCOMMUNICATION TO THE BUYERS OF THE PRODUCT.

WHEN "KNIFEMAKER" ORIGINALLY LISTED HERE MATERIAL FOR SALE HERE ON AZ BILLIARDS, HE CLEARLY LISTED IT AS "old yellow paper base micarta" AS SEEN HERE IN THIS THREAD http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=184473

WHEN THE MATERIAL WAS LISTED AT A LATER DATE IT WAS LISTED AS "old yellow micarta ferrules" AS SEEN HERE http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=185924

THE FIRST LISTING IS ACCURATE. IT IS OLD PAPER BASED MICARTA THAT WILL YELLOW SOME OVER TIME. PROBLEM IS, IT ISN'T THE "OLD YELLOW" ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA THAT CUE GUYS ARE REALLY LOOKING FOR. THE ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL IS THE STUFF THAT BRINGS $75-100 PER FERRULE BECAUSE OF IT'S SCARCITY.

I HAVE FERRULES HERE THAT ARRIVED TODAY FROM "KNIFEMAKER" AND THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AS THE ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL THAT I HAVE HERE.

I TRIED TO KEEP THIS VIA PM, BUT AFTER SEEING ANOTHER POST SAYING THAT IT WAS THE ORIGINAL STUFF, I FELT I HAD TO GO PUBLIC WITH MY THOUGHTS.

I WOULD BE WILLING TO SEND A PIECE THAT I GOT FROM "KNIFEMAKER" AND ONE OF MY ASBESTOS BASED PIECES TO AN INDEPENDANT PARTY TO EXAMINE. I AM NOT WILL THOUGH TO HAVE MY ASBESTOS STUFF CUT UP AND WASTED. IT IS CLEAR TO SEE THAT THERE IS A DIFFERNCE IN THE MATERIALS.

HERE ARE PICTURES I TOOK THIS AFTERNOON, OF THE ASBESTOS STUFF ON THE RIGHT, AND THE STUFF FROM "KNIFEMAKER" ON THE LEFT.

LIKE I SAID, I DIDN'T WANT TO DO THIS PUBLICLY, NOR AM I LOOKING TO GIVE "KNIFEMAKER" A HARD TIME, I AM SIMPLY LOOKING OUT FOR THE AZ MEMBERS THAT BOUGHT THIS MATERIAL THINKING THAT IT WAS THE ORIGINAL ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA.

I WOULD HAVE TO THINK THAT PETE TASCARELLA WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL IF I SENT HIM PIECES OF EACH, AND I WOULD BE WILLING TO ASK HIM TO TAKE A LOOK AS A THIRD PARTY.

Marcus

P.S. I WILL BE OUT THE REST OF THE NIGHT, SO I WON'T BE ABLE TO REPLY UNTIL MUCH LATER TONIGHT, OR UNTIL TOMORROW MORNING. IF ANYONE HAS QUESTIONS, GIVE ME A CALL.

The ferrules on the right are the old stuff. On the left not it, the real stuff doesn't have those flat laminated lines.

 

[cubswin]

LOOKS CREAMY WHITE..... JUST LIKE THE PAPER BASED MATERIAL THAT SCHON USED IN THE 80'S DOESN'T IT?

Marcus

Wasn't asbestos materials often mixed with paper bases? I believe that was the case in most asbestos items.

Personally I could care less, not going to buy any ferrules, because I didn't personally like the hit of micarta for the most part.

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Wasn't asbestos materials often mixed with paper bases? I believe that was the case in most asbestos items.

Personally I could care less, not going to buy any ferrules, because I didn't personally like the hit of micarta for the most part.

I'M SURE THAT FOR SOME THINGS THEY WERE USED TOGETHER...... THE ORIGINAL "OLD YELLOW" MICARTA WAS A PAPER BASED, AND HAD NO PATTERN AT ALL.

Marcus

 

[Bamacues]

I'M SURE THAT FOR SOME THINGS THEY WERE USED TOGETHER...... THE ORIGINAL "OLD YELLOW" MICARTA WAS A PAPER BASED, AND HAD NO PATTERN AT ALL.

Marcus

I know that micarta, no matter what the base, is a laminated material. Surely, there is some kind of pattern, even in the very old stuff. I know it could be produced in sheet form and in rolled form. Would there have been a difference in the pattern in rolled vs sheet form?

Joe

 

[knifemaker]

Again if you plish the stuff I sold it will show a pattern, so fast-n-loose saying that the old paper base micarta does not have a pattern is wrong.
I sold the old yellow paper based micarta. IT has a pattern it was made inthe 70's and up to 82-83. They even make some now but without some of the chemicals I have some and it even turns different as I did to check it out against what I sold. And it is snow white. I know that I sold what I showed on the pictures, that is what I said and what I did.
I hope everyone understands my stance on this. I am a knifemaker not a cue maker and haven't been a poolplayer since around 1982. I am not a chemist either but I know I have what is called the ole yellow paper based micarta that is what knifemakers have called it since 1975.
All said all done.
Have a great day.
Percy

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Again if you plish the stuff I sold it will show a pattern, so fast-n-loose saying that the old paper base micarta does not have a pattern is wrong.I sold the old yellow paper based micarta. IT has a pattern it was made inthe 70's and up to 82-83. They even make some now but without some of the chemicals I have some and it even turns different as I did to check it out against what I sold. And it is snow white. I know that I sold what I showed on the pictures, that is what I said and what I did.
I hope everyone understands my stance on this. I am a knifemaker not a cue maker and haven't been a poolplayer since around 1982. I am not a chemist either but I know I have what is called the ole yellow paper based micarta that is what knifemakers have called it since 1975.
All said all done.
Have a great day.
Percy

I NEVER SAID THAT THE OLD PAPER BASED STUFF DOESN'T HAVE A PATTERN, I ACTUALLY SAID IT DOES HAVE A PATTERN.

THE ASBESTOS "OLD YELLOW" DOES NOT HAVE A PATTERN.

THE ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL DOES NOT SHOW A CROSSED PATTERN LIKE THE PAPER BASED MATERIALS.

I'M JUST GLAD THAT YOU HAVE STATED AGAIN THAT WHAT YOU SOLD WAS THE PAPER BASED MATERIAL, AND NOT THE ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL.

I HOPE EVERYONE ONE UNDERSTANDS WHAT I AM TRING TO SHOW HERE..... I'M NOT SAYING THAT THE STUFF KNIFEMAKER SOLD, ISN'T MICARTA, AND I'M NOT TRYING TO SAY THAT IT'S NOT OLD. ALL I WANT BUYERS TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT IT IS NOT THE ORIGINAL ASBESTOS BASED MATERIAL THAT CUEMAKERS REFER TO AS "OLD YELLOW" MICARTA.

WHAT HE IS SELLING IS A GREAT PLAYING FERRULE MATERIAL, BUT ISN'T THE RARE ASBESTOS STUFF THE PDCUE HAD FOR SALE HERE.

Marcus

 

[Beer:30]

Are spec sheets available? Specific gravity or density should be able to differentiate between something that's got paper in place of asbestos.

Any way you go a spec sheet is going to be much more informative than subjective evaluations. There would also be other stuff on a spec sheet that will lead you to effective tests for either.

 

[knifemaker]

Bama there would have been a difference in the rolled and the block.
I have never had the rolled and don't know if it was made in the 70's that way. It was orignally made for the electrical industry and then people found it had some asthetic qualities. Then it was sold because of the the look and not the non conductivity uses. Knifemakers started useing it because it looked kindly like ivory and would age and then look more like aged ivory. I have used it for years because it looks like ivory kindly and the is very indestructive on a knife handle, that is why knifemakers have used it all along. When they took the old stuff off of the market because of the asbestos and arsenic knifemakers all over started hording it.
What I have Came from old knifemakers that are either dead or not making knives any longer. I can use it for knives and be very happy, customers pay and extra 100-150 per knife for this material on the handle.
Have a great weekend.
Percy

 

[Str8PoolPlayer]

"No good deed goes unpunished, Percy" ... I'm with you on this one,
as I have many, many custom knives with handles or scales made of
the old yellow micarta ... and, I hope you noticed that my CAPS LOCK is OFF !!!

 

[Bamacues]

Are spec sheets available? Specific gravity or density should be able to differentiate between something that's got paper in place of asbestos.

Any way you go a spec sheet is going to be much more informative than subjective evaluations. There would also be other stuff on a spec sheet that will lead you to effective tests for either.

You raise valid points, I think. We really don't know for certain if both, either, or neither of the samples seen actually have asbestos in them without spec sheets or testing.

Looking up old micarta info, I come to the conclusion that asbestos MAY have been in micarta produced prior to 1977, whether it was canvas, linen or paper based. Asbestos was apparently added to the mix to improve the heat resistant qualities of the micarta, therefore, it would probably depend on the intended use of the material as to the actual composition of the material and whether or not asbestos would/could have been a part of the formula.

Micarta is/was a laminate. It has to have a laminate pattern, but that pattern may not be easily discernable in the final product due to the type base, rolled/sheet, or a myriad of other determining factors that we don't know about. Marcus' example certainly seems to have a "tighter" grain appearance than knifemaker's, but I don't know whether it is based on the addition/absence of asbestos, roll vs sheet, or anything else.

Test them and let us know for sure.

I retired from the medical research field, and spent 25-30 years in RDT&E, so I am the inquisitive type. I would like to know whether or not asbestos is in what I bought, but it will not change my desire to have what I have, either way. It is just that now, it has my interest peaked.

Inquiring minds want to know....

Joe

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

"No good deed goes unpunished, Percy" ... I'm with you on this one,
as I have many, many custom knives with handles or scales made of
the old yellow micarta ... and, I hope you noticed that my CAPS LOCK is OFF !!!

IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO ME, ABOUT PUNISHING SOMEONE, YOU ARE MISTAKEN......

ALL I WANTED WAS THE BUYERS OF THE MATERIAL TO KNOW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING........ PAPER BASED MICARTA, JUST LIKE PERCY HAS STATED IT IS HERE IN THIS THREAD. NO ANIMOSITY OR HARD FEELINGS ABOUT ANY OF THIS BETWEEN MYSELF AND PERCY, WE WERE BOTH LOOKING FOR PROPER INFORMATION TO BE SHARED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF KNIVES WITH OLD YELLOW HANDLES, AND A LOT OF KNIVES WITH OLD PAPER BASED MICARTA THAT HAS YELLOWED OVER TIME. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SITUATION.

I HOPE YOU NOTICED MY CAPS ARE ON!!!

Marcus

 

[knifemaker]

Bama
I have ordered the test kit for it. The problem I have now is this.
A customer of my knife business was over this afternoon. He is an attorney, we got on this subject because of all the dust in my shop. After me telling him the issue he simply stated." If you get the kit and it test for asbestos and you put that out in the public don't call me when you need legal help". I sold what knifemakers have always called old yellow paper based micarta. I am a knifemaker and have not tried to get someone to buy anything that was other than what I showed in the pictures.
This is getting to be a long drama.
As the ferrules turn.
Percy/Knifemaker

 

[FAST_N_LOOSE]

Bama
I have ordered the test kit for it. The problem I have now is this.
A customer of my knife business was over this afternoon. He is an attorney, we got on this subject because of all the dust in my shop. After me telling him the issue he simply stated." If you get the kit and it test for asbestos and you put that out in the public don't call me when you need legal help". I sold what knifemakers have always called old yellow paper based micarta. I am a knifemaker and have not tried to get someone to buy anything that was other than what I showed in the pictures.
This is getting to be a long drama.
As the ferrules turn.
Percy/Knifemaker

PERCY,
TO BE HONEST, THERE IS NO REASON TO TEST IT. IT IS WHAT YOU SAID IT WAS...... OLD PAPER BASED MICARTA.

AS LONG AS THAT IT WHAT YOUR BUYERS WERE LOOKING FOR, THAN IT'S A NON-ISSUE.

LIKE WE'VE SAID IN PM'S, THIS ISN'T US ARGUING, IT'S JUST TRYING TO SHARE INFORMATION.

HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.

Marcus

 

[knifemaker]

I hope other AZer's did not confuse FAST_N_LOOSE and me going back and forth about this issue as anargument. I am a firm believer that everyone needs to speak what is on their mind. The only way to have good feedback is to get all of the feedback. Their has to be bad also, if not then we are all followers and I hope AZer's don't fall into that trap.
Marcus and I have no problem with each other personally, this is just an issue about material. I don't think he ever thought I was trying to sell something other than what I said and I don't think he thought I was either. We have had a great debate and it has to go both ways.
Everyone have a great weekend cause me and Marcus are.
Percy

 

[Klink]

I hope other AZer's did not confuse FAST_N_LOOSE and me going back and forth about this issue as anargument. I am a firm believer that everyone needs to speak what is on their mind. The only way to have good feedback is to get all of the feedback. Their has to be bad also, if not then we are all followers and I hope AZer's don't fall into that trap.
Marcus and I have no problem with each other personally, this is just an issue about material. I don't think he ever thought I was trying to sell something other than what I said and I don't think he thought I was either. We have had a great debate and it has to go both ways.
Everyone have a great weekend cause me and Marcus are.
Percy

It only seems like an argument because of the cap locks being used by Marcus. The cap locks indicate yelling and yelling indicates arguing.