PLEASE READ old westinghouse micarta
- Thread starter knifemaker
- Start date
Bob, just wanted to point out you put an extra "l" in hilarious... :wink:
I did not even know that you could yell on a computer. I do know it is easy to read when you are old like me and have poor eyes.
I will have something to report later.
Keep your eyes on this thread " As the micarta hits" Saturday nights new drama.
Percy
I will have something to report later.
Keep your eyes on this thread " As the micarta hits" Saturday nights new drama.
Percy
Low down from the engineer that designed micarta.
I spent a good part of the afternoon speaking with a gentleman that worked at westinghouse from 1957-1991 He was an engineer in the plastics division and talked a lot about the products.
People have heard of Bakalite plastic material it was used widely in many operation in the 40's and on. George Baklin was working with a resin and it hardened up when heat was applied, but too hard for what he was trying to make. Well his friend was in the new plastic industry and his name was also George but last name Westinghouse. Baklin called Westinghouse and told him of his descovery and wanted to know if he was interested in it. That was the start of the micarta industry. The government was the big purchaser of the product until around the late to early 50's then it bacame more widely used. Asbestos was used for heat sensitivity in the late 50's and early to mid 70's. There were many other uses and the paper base came about in the early 60's' then the linen and canvas base came about in the mid to late 60's. The canvas base was used as bearing races in the food industry and the weaving industry used it for loom stops which was a big business. The numbers on the product I have gives the batch number it was in and that has the resin and other compositions of it. Of course those records are not available today. The product I have is paper base micarta from the early 70's and will yellow and turn a deep yellow color.
The asbestos micarta will turn to a dark color and even green when uv light is on it for an extended lenght of time. The only difference in the paper base I have and the asbestos is the asbestos itself for heat resistance. The products used the same phenolic resin and they just left the asbestos out of the regular paper base product. The paper base product was used widely in the electrical industry for its non conductivity properites. In milityary airplanes and ships the asbestos was used on all of the pulleys in the ship and plane because of the heat resistance. The wearability is about the same as is the strength. The canvas base is the strongest and was used as bearing races and many high impact applications where impact strenght needed to be very high in the 3000 lbs per ft catagory. The different resin over the years changed colors different and the paper in the 70's would turn to a golden yellow. This is what knifemaders and cue makers have liked over the years.
This gentleman was a world of information and I enjoyed talking to him. He talked slow because of his age and even I could take notes.
So it all started because Baklin was experimenting with resins for his use.
I think this is a great thread to read as I have learned a lot researching it.
Thanks for your time.
Percy/Knifemaker
I spent a good part of the afternoon speaking with a gentleman that worked at westinghouse from 1957-1991 He was an engineer in the plastics division and talked a lot about the products.
People have heard of Bakalite plastic material it was used widely in many operation in the 40's and on. George Baklin was working with a resin and it hardened up when heat was applied, but too hard for what he was trying to make. Well his friend was in the new plastic industry and his name was also George but last name Westinghouse. Baklin called Westinghouse and told him of his descovery and wanted to know if he was interested in it. That was the start of the micarta industry. The government was the big purchaser of the product until around the late to early 50's then it bacame more widely used. Asbestos was used for heat sensitivity in the late 50's and early to mid 70's. There were many other uses and the paper base came about in the early 60's' then the linen and canvas base came about in the mid to late 60's. The canvas base was used as bearing races in the food industry and the weaving industry used it for loom stops which was a big business. The numbers on the product I have gives the batch number it was in and that has the resin and other compositions of it. Of course those records are not available today. The product I have is paper base micarta from the early 70's and will yellow and turn a deep yellow color.
The asbestos micarta will turn to a dark color and even green when uv light is on it for an extended lenght of time. The only difference in the paper base I have and the asbestos is the asbestos itself for heat resistance. The products used the same phenolic resin and they just left the asbestos out of the regular paper base product. The paper base product was used widely in the electrical industry for its non conductivity properites. In milityary airplanes and ships the asbestos was used on all of the pulleys in the ship and plane because of the heat resistance. The wearability is about the same as is the strength. The canvas base is the strongest and was used as bearing races and many high impact applications where impact strenght needed to be very high in the 3000 lbs per ft catagory. The different resin over the years changed colors different and the paper in the 70's would turn to a golden yellow. This is what knifemaders and cue makers have liked over the years.
This gentleman was a world of information and I enjoyed talking to him. He talked slow because of his age and even I could take notes.
So it all started because Baklin was experimenting with resins for his use.
I think this is a great thread to read as I have learned a lot researching it.
Thanks for your time.
Percy/Knifemaker
DrOnePocket
Banned
I`m a Nit........
Bob,
The correct spelling for your two cuemakers are: South West and Josswest.
BTW, I have found this thread to be extremely informative, and particularly have liked the posts by both of the main posters, Percy and Marcus. This thread has captured some real history, and everyone who has read the entire thread is better for it.
Green rep to Percy and Marcus!
Thanks all.
Will Prout
Bob,
The correct spelling for your two cuemakers are: South West and Josswest.
BTW, I have found this thread to be extremely informative, and particularly have liked the posts by both of the main posters, Percy and Marcus. This thread has captured some real history, and everyone who has read the entire thread is better for it.
Green rep to Percy and Marcus!
Thanks all.
Will Prout
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Westinghouse made micarta in the 70's that you could get any color you wanted. Information from the engineering supervisor was that if you bought a batch they would make it anyway and any colr you specified. When they started using the epoxy resin they had a real problem with pot life it was only 48 hours and if they did not use it all, they had to trash it. Because of it's durability a lot of companies were buying it and it was used in almost every major industry for somthing. Westinghouse sold the plastics division in about 94 to a paper co. From then on the micarta division went down hill. Dan went to India and other countries helping them set up plastic manufactoring plants and some of the old receipes that aren't used in the US are still being made in other countries. After the government wanted the asbestos used for its purpose then it shut down the use of asbestos in the material. The only one that got any of the asbestos material was government contractors. The military designed had specfic requirements and the asbestos had to be used to meet those requirements. All of this is very interesting to me and hope you all don't mind the reading also.
Percy/Knifemaker
Percy/Knifemaker
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still can't spell folks!
Thanks Will, you caught me too! I also think that this thread is very informative. More green for Percy and Marcus.
"country" Bob
Bob,
The correct spelling for your two cuemakers are: South West and Josswest.
BTW, I have found this thread to be extremely informative, and particularly have liked the posts by both of the main posters, Percy and Marcus. This thread has captured some real history, and everyone who has read the entire thread is better for it.
Green rep to Percy and Marcus!
Thanks all.
Will Prout
Thanks Will, you caught me too! I also think that this thread is very informative. More green for Percy and Marcus.
"country" Bob
Of all the cues that I see posted that says micarta ferrules I haven't seen any with micarta like FAST_N_LOOSE sent me an e-mail of. I have seen some thatis yellowish but nothing with the grain like his has.
Just my observation and wondering if Palmer, Schon and Southwest used what he had or not.
Thanks any input would be appreciated.
Percy/Knifemaker
Just my observation and wondering if Palmer, Schon and Southwest used what he had or not.
Thanks any input would be appreciated.
Percy/Knifemaker
THE ASBESTOS BASED FERRULES ARE RARE, AND AREN'T STILL ON MANY CUES. I DON'T HAVE MY PHOTO ARCHIVES ON THIS COMPUTER, BUT IF I REMEMBER TOMORROW, I'LL SEE WHAT I HAVE PICS OF WITH "OLD YELLOW" FERRULES.
Marcus
P.S. PALMER AND SCHON DIDN'T USE THE ASBESTOS BASED STUFF. PALMER USED A LOT OF YELLOWISH FERRULES, BUT NOT "OLD YELLO MICARTA". SCHON USED THE STUFF THAT YOU SENT ME IN THE 80'S. SOUTHWEST DID USE THE ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA, BUT TODAY, IT IS RARE, AND DIFFICULT AN OLDER SW WITH THEM.
Marcus thanks for the verification onthe schon and southwest and palmer I had just seen cues that had that posted with them and id not understand.
Percy
Percy
Wow...nice thread...so what are these ferrule worth? If they are the same as the schon,SW etc. I generally thought that these are the ferrule that everyone was looking look for? What type of Micarta is on the bluegrass shafts as I'm about to receive 2 brand new shafts with Micarta on them from Richard?
Thanks,
Duc.
Thanks,
Duc.
I'M NOT GETTING INTO PRICING/VALUE........
YOU WOULD HAVE TO ASK RICHARD WHICH FERRULES HE USED FOR YOU. I'VE SEEN HIM USE BOTH.
SCHON AND SW USE DIFFERENT MATERIALS.
Marcus
Gave up on spelking now into grammer l.o.l.
Ron. Ivory is not more better. It's more gooder, i don't know how anyone could make a misteak like thet l.o.l.
"country" Bob
Ron. Ivory is not more better. It's more gooder, i don't know how anyone could make a misteak like thet l.o.l.
"country" Bob
Whoa! Now THAT is another debate completely. Personally, I think ivory is the besterest and while micarta maybe be gooder than some, it has to be a certain kind of micarta. Some micartas are betterer than others.
But I'm with Ron. Ivory is goodest out there. :thumbup:
Just to put my 2 cents in. I have quite literaly all the micarta that have been used for ferrule material. From the new stuff atlas offers-don't like. Masonh's "New" Micarta-Which I like. both kinds of "OLD" micarta and a few other wanabees.
My brother and I travel from time to time and do repair at tournaments, we will be in Las Vegas, if anyone is out there I'll show you all the different kinds.
The Asbestos based ferrule material when you look at it under a magnifying glass and wet it you can barely see a weave, it's closer to solid until it "oxidizes" and becomes yellow.
The paper pased material look's like a laminated shaft in most cases, depending on were and how it was cut.
First I want to say, that none, and I mean none of the "Old"micarta looks or is yellow when freshly cut. It is an ivory-off white, the material needs to oxidize if you will and then it takes it's color, hence why those who have recieved freshly cut ferrules and haven't worked with "OLD" micarta before are upset about the color.
2nd, I ordered some of these ferrules, they are the paper based, Laminated kind. And in my experience with selling and putting these ferrules on I'd say about 80% of the time people expect the laminated ferrule. I've been asked "where's the lines in the ferrule and why isn't it yellow", and I have to explain to them about the 2 different kinds of "old" micarta, and Oxidizing.
We put one on a euro-pro's old JW last year, he specificly asked for Asbestos based, and when finished he said I put on the wrong ferrule, and had to bring over another "expert" on the subject and show him both ferrules. He was kind of dumbfounded, and thanked us for the education. His original ferrules were the paper based and the most extreme laminate I've ever seen in Micarta and of course were very yellow.
Any way, My point is, you have "real" "OLD" micarta. And a great find. IF you are still angry and don't want it. PM me, I'll Make you an offer on them.
My brother and I travel from time to time and do repair at tournaments, we will be in Las Vegas, if anyone is out there I'll show you all the different kinds.
The Asbestos based ferrule material when you look at it under a magnifying glass and wet it you can barely see a weave, it's closer to solid until it "oxidizes" and becomes yellow.
The paper pased material look's like a laminated shaft in most cases, depending on were and how it was cut.
First I want to say, that none, and I mean none of the "Old"micarta looks or is yellow when freshly cut. It is an ivory-off white, the material needs to oxidize if you will and then it takes it's color, hence why those who have recieved freshly cut ferrules and haven't worked with "OLD" micarta before are upset about the color.
2nd, I ordered some of these ferrules, they are the paper based, Laminated kind. And in my experience with selling and putting these ferrules on I'd say about 80% of the time people expect the laminated ferrule. I've been asked "where's the lines in the ferrule and why isn't it yellow", and I have to explain to them about the 2 different kinds of "old" micarta, and Oxidizing.
We put one on a euro-pro's old JW last year, he specificly asked for Asbestos based, and when finished he said I put on the wrong ferrule, and had to bring over another "expert" on the subject and show him both ferrules. He was kind of dumbfounded, and thanked us for the education. His original ferrules were the paper based and the most extreme laminate I've ever seen in Micarta and of course were very yellow.
Any way, My point is, you have "real" "OLD" micarta. And a great find. IF you are still angry and don't want it. PM me, I'll Make you an offer on them.
Thanks Bryan... I was beginning to think that these old Micarta ferrule are easy to come by.... anyone know any other place that might have these ferrule without the Asbestos?
Regards,
Duc.
Regards,
Duc.