PLEASE READ old westinghouse micarta

knifemaker said:
Bama
A customer of my knife business was over this afternoon. He is an attorney, we got on this subject because of all the dust in my shop. After me telling him the issue he simply stated." If you get the kit and it test for asbestos and you put that out in the public don't call me when you need legal help".
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I can understand that, but I don't think there is an issue with the stuff not in dust form, and that is up to the person who ought it, I think. Personally, I would want to now what I had around the shop, especially if youngsters ever visit you there.

I hope other AZer's did not confuse FAST_N_LOOSE and me going back and forth about this issue as anargument. I am a firm believer that everyone needs to speak what is on their mind. The only way to have good feedback is to get all of the feedback. Percy
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I agree...it is simply a professional discussion. When at the staff table, all discussion, both good and bad, need to be heard in order for a sucessful resolution of an issue...and sometimes, there is no resolution, only more issues.
Joe
 
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Bamacues said:
You raise valid points, I think. We really don't know for certain if both, either, or neither of the samples seen actually have asbestos in them without spec sheets or testing.

Looking up old micarta info, I come to the conclusion that asbestos MAY have been in micarta produced prior to 1977, whether it was canvas, linen or paper based. Asbestos was apparently added to the mix to improve the heat resistant qualities of the micarta, therefore, it would probably depend on the intended use of the material as to the actual composition of the material and whether or not asbestos would/could have been a part of the formula.

Micarta is/was a laminate. It has to have a laminate pattern, but that pattern may not be easily discernable in the final product due to the type base, rolled/sheet, or a myriad of other determining factors that we don't know about. Marcus' example certainly seems to have a "tighter" grain appearance than knifemaker's, but I don't know whether it is based on the addition/absence of asbestos, roll vs sheet, or anything else.

Test them and let us know for sure.

I retired from the medical research field, and spent 25-30 years in RDT&E, so I am the inquisitive type. I would like to know whether or not asbestos is in what I bought, but it will not change my desire to have what I have, either way. It is just that now, it has my interest peaked.

Inquiring minds want to know....

Joe
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Got access to a reflected light microscope? The asbestos should have quite different reflectivity from the plant fiber based stuff as well as the medium they are embedded in.
 
My Point Exactly ...

Klink said:
It only seems like an argument because of the cap locks being used by Marcus. The cap locks indicate yelling and yelling indicates arguing.
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Most of us on these Forums would agree that ALL CAPS IS YELLING !!!
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO ME, ABOUT PUNISHING SOMEONE, YOU ARE MISTAKEN......

ALL I WANTED WAS THE BUYERS OF THE MATERIAL TO KNOW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING........ PAPER BASED MICARTA, JUST LIKE PERCY HAS STATED IT IS HERE IN THIS THREAD. NO ANIMOSITY OR HARD FEELINGS ABOUT ANY OF THIS BETWEEN MYSELF AND PERCY, WE WERE BOTH LOOKING FOR PROPER INFORMATION TO BE SHARED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF KNIVES WITH OLD YELLOW HANDLES, AND A LOT OF KNIVES WITH OLD PAPER BASED MICARTA THAT HAS YELLOWED OVER TIME. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SITUATION.

I HOPE YOU NOTICED MY CAPS ARE ON!!!

Marcus
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So to clarify based on my understanding of this thread: old Schon ferrules are flat laminated, non-asbestos containing, paper based Micarta that yellows over time.

Were the Palmer ferrules the asbestos stuff? Did anybody else use it exclusively or prefer it? Are they still alive or anybody get sick from it?

Thanks,

Eric
 
The ferrules I recieved look like the ones MARCUS is stating are asbestos based. Personaly I don't care as I am sure they will play great and like any other material depending on which batch you recieve the make up will be slightly different. I applaud Percy for making these availiable at a fair price it's just to bad one person is being such a NIT and should leave it be as he's got his money back doesn't have the product anymore so mind your own. Once again thanks Percy
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
IF YOU ARE REFERRING TO ME, ABOUT PUNISHING SOMEONE, YOU ARE MISTAKEN......

ALL I WANTED WAS THE BUYERS OF THE MATERIAL TO KNOW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING........ PAPER BASED MICARTA, JUST LIKE PERCY HAS STATED IT IS HERE IN THIS THREAD. NO ANIMOSITY OR HARD FEELINGS ABOUT ANY OF THIS BETWEEN MYSELF AND PERCY, WE WERE BOTH LOOKING FOR PROPER INFORMATION TO BE SHARED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF KNIVES WITH OLD YELLOW HANDLES, AND A LOT OF KNIVES WITH OLD PAPER BASED MICARTA THAT HAS YELLOWED OVER TIME. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SITUATION.

I HOPE YOU NOTICED MY CAPS ARE ON!!!

Marcus
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YES...we have noticed your caps are on! Why not show some respect if indeed there are no hard feelings! j/s
 
First of all, Marcus is one of the most respected senior members on this forum and has always used his cap locks in ALL of his threads. It's kinda like his "signature", much like Jimbo's was his use of purple letters. It's pretty damned sad when someone needs to attack his threads based on "internet political correctness" rather than the content of what he's saying...

I have no doubt that both he and knifemaker are just concerned with making sure that AZB members are getting what they expect when they buy this material. They both have valid points. Asbestos was available in many forms and knifemaker's probably spot on with fact that his material is probably asbestos based, but Marcus is referring to the material that is usually thought of when old yellow Westinghouse Micarta is mentioned in regard to ferrules. Asbestos was supplied in fiber form as well as paper, mineral wool, asbestos cloth, millboard, just to name a few. Here is an old asbestos info sheet (scroll down to Chapter V for some of the many forms available).

http://www.crosbylegal.com/Assets/Category/0001/0002/32/crosby_Oct_87_DRI.pdf

I think that the ferrule material was phenolic resin with randomly oriented fibers that usually didn't have a pattern, per se, or at least not the usual "cloth finish" we see in linen or canvas based laminates. I have also seen a few ferrules from the same time period that did indeed have a paper pattern, where you could only tell it was paper based because of the final wraps in the paper, which kind of look like a smooth ferrule with a couple of non descript vertical lines that almost give it an ivory looking grain (but just at the end of the wrap in one place).

They are both asbestos based, but just different forms. The "standard version" was the smooth one with the random fibers, though, which I believe is the ferrule material that Marcus is describing.

Steve
 
Bamacues said:
I know that micarta, no matter what the base, is a laminated material. Surely, there is some kind of pattern, even in the very old stuff. I know it could be produced in sheet form and in rolled form. Would there have been a difference in the pattern in rolled vs sheet form?

Joe
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Joe, please don't think I am zeroing in on you - but your statement is
the perfect example of the main reasons why there is so much confusion
about Micarta.

It is true that most Micarta was laminated - but not all of it was.

Marcus knows his beans about Micarta. The "old stuff" was produced
in sheets,and was reinforced, but not laminated.
Some of the materials used after the "old stuff" was no longer available
were laminated. And some made perfectly good ferrules.

So far, I have stayed out of this thread - but I have gotten some request
to comment. I plan to post my ideas - along with a reveiw of what's what
with the old Micarta as I understand it.

But for now I have my nose to the grindstone tuning in the taper bar
on a saw-shaft machine

Stay tuned...
Dale
 
This thread is hallarious

Many of the best of the best cue makers refuse to use the yellow old micarta in custom builds because it is so damn ugly. I would never want to say anything disparraging about this stuff but I have known the best around to refuse it's use. They would return it.
It was a cheap material to use when it was available for ferrels and joints basicly indestructable and it was easy to work with. Now it is expensive and a known health risk.
Ivory and many other materials now are far superior. The old cues just had better shaft wood than is available now to most builders. That is why the hit better.
This white or yellow thing is hallirious because the materials main quality was it was cheap and held up will. As time went by builders found better but more expensive materials that are now used widely.
Nick :)
 
ha! ha!

nick serdula said:
Many of the best of the best cue makers refuse to use the yellow old micarta in custom builds because it is so damn ugly. I would never want to say anything disparraging about this stuff but I have known the best around to refuse it's use. They would return it.
It was a cheap material to use when it was available for ferrels and joints basicly indestructable and it was easy to work with. Now it is expensive and a known health risk.
Ivory and many other materials now are far superior. The old cues just had better shaft wood than is available now to most builders. That is why the hit better.
This white or yellow thing is hallirious because the materials main quality was it was cheap and held up will. As time went by builders found better but more expensive materials that are now used widely.
Nick :)
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Nick, even if you are right your spelling is more hillarious than your statements are correct. ha! ha! I like the look of micarta and it plays great on my Southwest and Joss West.
"country" Bob
 
emf123 said:
So to clarify based on my understanding of this thread: old Schon ferrules are flat laminated, non-asbestos containing, paper based Micarta that yellows over time.

Were the Palmer ferrules the asbestos stuff? Did anybody else use it exclusively or prefer it? Are they still alive or anybody get sick from it?

Thanks,

Eric
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THE SCHON MICARTA FERRULES WERE PAPER BASED, AND NON-ASBESTOS.

PALMER I'M SURE USED SOME ASBESTOS MICARTA, BUT THEY ALSO MAINLY USED OTHER PLASTICS.

KERSENBROCK, SW, JW, AND MANY OTHERS USED A LOT OF IT. IMO, IT HAS THE BEST HIT OUT OF THE FERRULE MATERIALS. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT DESIREABLE.

I HAVE NO IDEA IF ANY CUEMAKERS BECAME ILL BECAUSE OF THE USE OF ASBESTOS BASED MICARTA.

Marcus
 
bignik957 said:
The ferrules I recieved look like the ones MARCUS is stating are asbestos based. Personaly I don't care as I am sure they will play great and like any other material depending on which batch you recieve the make up will be slightly different. I applaud Percy for making these availiable at a fair price it's just to bad one person is being such a NIT and should leave it be as he's got his money back doesn't have the product anymore so mind your own. Once again thanks Percy
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OUCH..... THE NAME CALLING REALLY HURTS MY FEELINGS. YOU KNOW, NITS HAVE FEELINGS, AND THEY CAN BE EASILY HURT.

BIGGEST PROBLEM HERE IS MOST OF THE GUYS BUYING THE MATERIALS DON'T KNOW ANY OF THE DIFFERENCES, NOR DID THEY REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY WERE BUYING.

I WAS JUST TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BUYERS KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING, AND MAKING A WELL INFORMED PURCHASE.

THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH A REFUND FOR ME, A NIT LIKE ME COULD HAVE LIVED WITHOUT THE $250 I SENT HIM, BUT I WASN'T PAYING FOR AN ITEM THAT I DIDN'T WANT. PERCY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY WEREN'T WHAT I WAS EXPECTING, SO HE OFFERED TO TAKE THEM BACK.

Marcus

P.S. DO YOU EVEN KNOW THE DIFFERENCES IN THE MATERIALS WE'RE TALKING ABOUT? OR THE PLAYABILITY/HIT DIFFERENCES IN THE MATERIALS?
 
Hunter said:
First of all, Marcus is one of the most respected senior members on this forum and has always used his cap locks in ALL of his threads. It's kinda like his "signature", much like Jimbo's was his use of purple letters. It's pretty damned sad when someone needs to attack his threads based on "internet political correctness" rather than the content of what he's saying...

Steve
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THANKS STEVE,
I'VE REALIZED THAT PEOPLE GO AFTER THE USE OF CAPS, WHEN THEY HAVE NO OTHER VALID THING TO ATTACK. EITHER THAT OR THEY RESORT TO NAME CALLING OR SWEARING, WHICH I ALSO FIND ENTERTAINING.

I'VE STATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN, I'M NOT YELLING, IT'S JUST EASIER FOR ME TO READ. I'M ALSO NOT SURE WHAT THE BIG DEAL IS, OR WHO CAME UP WITH THE USE OF CAPS BEING "YELLING", BUT I'M NOT CHANGING NOW, SO IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER.

Marcus
 
pdcue said:
Marcus knows his beans about Micarta. The "old stuff" was produced
in sheets,and was reinforced, but not laminated.
Some of the materials used after the "old stuff" was no longer available
were laminated. And some made perfectly good ferrules.

Stay tuned...
Dale
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THANKS DALE,
I WAS SURE THAT AT SOME POINT, WHEN YOU HAD A FEW MINUTES THAT WE'D BE HEARING FROM "THE MAN" ON THIS SUBJECT.

Marcus
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
KERSENBROCK, SW, JW, AND MANY OTHERS USED A LOT OF IT. IMO, IT HAS THE BEST HIT OUT OF THE FERRULE MATERIALS. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT DESIREABLE. Marcus
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I didn't realize that you could get micarta off of elephants... thanks for that info... :grin:

JV (---maybe the best "man" made material...
 
Forget the spelling

bobco729 said:
Nick, even if you are right your spelling is more hillarious than your statements are correct. ha! ha! I like the look of micarta and it plays great on my Southwest and Joss West.
"country" Bob
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I can't count. I have a concussion. Probably will spell better next week. I put a blind fold on you and milk duds on your fellels and I bet you like ivory! Micarta hits too soft. And Bob you can play with a broom handle and say it hits good.
Besides that ferrels? In a couple years every one may be saying what dat is!
Nick :)
 
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