Pocket Size

Mark V said:
Tight pockets take the 'fun' shots out of the game. The shots casual fans actually come to see. The 'how the hell did he just do that' shots.
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I love the circus shots, too, but I'm not sure looser pockets will help much. When the opponent reliably puts together packages, the risk is too great, and bigger pockets will yield bigger packages. When a miss doesn't just mean I am giving up the table, or probably a game, but that I stand a good chance of falling too far behind in the set, the circus shot just isn't worth it. The pros are almost too good to be entertaining. It's like they have solved the game, like how you could study tic tac toe for a couple of hours and learn all the possible moves and never lose another game.
ChrisinNC said:
It is not possible for pro tournaments to be played on worn cloth, so the only option is 4-inch pockets, so in my opinion, Matchroom has it right.
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They could use a slower cloth on the rails.
sjm said:
They surely won't mandate that all events carrying Matchroom ranking points adhere to these specifications, and that's as it should be.
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They just had an event at Hard Times here in Sacramento, their pockets are about 4 1/4" I believe. I played on one of the Diamonds that had been recovered with 860 and I could not believe how easily the pockets swallowed balls. I have a tougher time at home with an inch more pocket and a foot less table. There were a lot of shots that I thought "crap!" as soon as I struck it but they still went in. I'm still in no danger of beating Gorst.
 
tomatoshooter said:
I love the circus shots, too, but I'm not sure looser pockets will help much. When the opponent reliably puts together packages, the risk is too great, and bigger pockets will yield bigger packages. When a miss doesn't just mean I am giving up the table, or probably a game, but that I stand a good chance of falling too far behind in the set, the circus shot just isn't worth it. The pros are almost too good to be entertaining. It's like they have solved the game, like how you could study tic tac toe for a couple of hours and learn all the possible moves and never lose another game.

They could use a slower cloth on the rails.

They just had an event at Hard Times here in Sacramento, their pockets are about 4 1/4" I believe. I played on one of the Diamonds that had been recovered with 860 and I could not believe how easily the pockets swallowed balls. I have a tougher time at home with an inch more pocket and a foot less table. There were a lot of shots that I thought "crap!" as soon as I struck it but they still went in. I'm still in no danger of beating Gorst.
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That’s the new cloth. In 2 weeks those tables will play completely different / tougher, and in 2-3 months even moreso.
 
Cameron Smith said:
You can always expect a transitionary period when the tables are toughened up. But the pros adapt soon enough. I remember when diamonds became the norm there were conversations about how difficult those 4.5” pockets were. But before long we were seeing no miss pool again.

Tight pockets are a must for big televised events. Misses are good for the game because it keeps people from tuning out when the first ball of the rack is potted.

And while yes, difficult conditions will make it harder for amateurs to compete, I don’t think it’s a winning strategy to cater players who will only be around for a couple of matches anyway.
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Is missing a shot a pre-requisite? And can you provide a name of ANY player that don't miss pocketing a ball? The real problem is double elimination events, and to short of races. Name ONE player that has ever ran 13 and out from the break in a tournament!!!
 
sjm said:
I like what Matchroom is doing but to say they are standardizing is an overstatement. It looks like they'll use 4" at the major 9ball championships (WPC, UK Open, Spanish Open, European Open, US Open) and possibly in their major invitationals (WPM, WCOP and Mosconi Cup). They surely won't mandate that all events carrying Matchroom ranking points adhere to these specifications, and that's as it should be. As in golf, when the major titles are up for grabs, the playing conditions should be tougher.

As we saw at Derby City 9ball, when the field has too much dead money in it, super-tight tables slow an event down to a crawl, and the 2023 Derby City 9-ball forced the two finalists (SVB and Gorst) to play 25 hours of pool on the final day.
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Match time limits would have solved all those problem, but it seems like everyone is scared to enforce them!!
 
Devils advocate:

1. Define in words what the problem is exactly. Is the problem merely the symptom of a larger issue.

2. Who is it that sees the problem as a problem and why is this a problem to them?

3. Is the intervention that has been put in place actually helping the problem defined above?

4. What harms, if any, has the solution caused.


My take: Just what the hell are we, and have we accomplished with dicking around with pocket sizes? It’s become completely neurotic and the game is no better off for it. Has it attracted more people to play? Has match quality improved? Has it evened the field? Are crowd sizes any bigger?

Continuing to screw around with rules and tradition is about to murder the NFL. College football isn’t far behind. And all for what? What is the goal in all of this?

I keep hearing “the game has gotten too easy” when it comes to pool. Well, why is this a problem and who is it a problem for? Do the asses in the stands talk amongst themselves and say “yep, just too damn easy, not worth my time.”

Is it a shortstop level, B or C level player problem? How about for bangers?

The neuroticism of the top players to invent a more challenging environment because they are tired of watching their ‘lesser’ opponent run out on them is killing the game for the everyone else. I’m probably off base, but To me it’s really no more complicated than that. If someone has a better explanation I’d like to hear it.

Is the game more exciting? Are more asses in the stands?

/rant
 
I always laugh at folks who want a tight table. They say things like it will make you a better player, both players are playing on same table, etc. That tells me they really dont understand much about pool.

Why?

1.) In one of the poolrooms I went to, tight pocket nitwits say make it 4" or 4 1/8" verses the 4 1/2. What happened? It didnt make anyone better, but what it did is changed people games where they didnt take a difficult (or moderately difficult) shot and would play safe instead. To me, when playing pool playing difficult but makeable great shots is great stretch of skills and makes players better. With tight pockets that just doesnt happen. One other thing about the pool room with the extremely tight pocket table, it seldom had anyone playing on it .

2.) Secondly, the tigher tables at DCC was a disaster. It slowed down all events and compromises were necessary, which included playing later time. With the huge field in the tournament in multiple disciplines its going to be a disaster in the making.

3.) I get it, and maybe 4 1/2 is too large, but going down a little to 4 1/4 might be better.

4.) If you had a tournament with maybe 8 absolutely top pros, maybe tightning the pockets would be ok. But the beauty of the DCC is there are tons of solid players that dont have a chance on table that tight verses a pro. Do you want to guarentee that non-pro players never having a chance? Sure those top 8-10 pro players can play on them, but do you really want to guarentee their winning?

Best of rolls,

Ken
 
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realkingcobra said:
Is missing a shot a pre-requisite? And can you provide a name of ANY player that don't miss pocketing a ball? The real problem is double elimination events, and to short of races. Name ONE player that has ever ran 13 and out from the break in a tournament!!!
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kaci didn't miss a ball in the semifinal of the UK open. i think it was the semi. filler and sky also had matches with very few misses
 
skogstokig said:
kaci didn't miss a ball in the semifinal of the UK open. i think it was the semi. filler and sky also had matches with very few misses
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But Kaci DIDN'T run out the set without a miss! I have to laugh at everyone that claim the players run out and never miss on 4 1/2" pockets so that's why they need to be 4" instead!
 
realkingcobra said:
Yeah, put a limit on how long a match can be played, so a 6 hour, race to 9 don't hold up the entire tournament!!!
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Not sure how that works. If it's 4-3 after two hours in a race to nine, do you declare the one with four to have won the match? What's the process?
 
sjm said:
Not sure how that works. If it's 4-3 after two hours in a race to nine, do you declare the one with four to have won the match? What's the process?
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If the score is tied, the there's a one game sudden death playoff, winner of the single game wins the match. There's NO excuse in races to 9 lasting more than 3 hours, period!
 
Ken_4fun said:
I always laugh at folks who want a tight table. They say things like it will make you a better player, both players are playing on same table, etc. That tells me they really dont understand much about pool.

Why?

1.) In one of the poolrooms I went to, tight pocket nitwits say make it 4" or 4 1/8" verses the 4 1/2. What happened? It didnt make anyone better, but what it did is changed people games where they didnt take a difficult (or moderately difficult) shot and would play safe instead. To me, when playing pool playing difficult but makeable great shots is great stretch of skills and makes players better. With tight pockets that just doesnt happen. One other thing about the pool room with the extremely tight pocket table, it seldom had anyone playing on it .

2.) Secondly, the tigher tables at DCC was a disaster. It slowed down all events and compromises were necessary, which included playing later time. With the huge field in the tournament in multiple disciplines its going to be a disaster in the making.

3.) I get it, and maybe 4 1/2 is too large, but going down a little to 4 1/4 might be better.

4.) If you had a tournament with maybe 8 absolutely top pros, maybe tightning the pockets would be ok. But the beauty of the DCC is there are tons of solid players that dont have a chance on table that tight verses a pro. Do you want to guarentee that non-pro players never having a chance? Sure those top 8-10 pro players can play on them, but do you really want to guarentee their winning?

Best of rolls,

Ken
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I get the validity of this argument but the reasons point to the incompetence of the players. That jocks on tight pockets will default to not losing rather than evolution is not surprising. Arguing for the sludge of averages will get you sludge and keep you there.
An instrument that facilitates more precision must be wielded more precisely. That simple.
 
realkingcobra said:
But Kaci DIDN'T run out the set without a miss! I have to laugh at everyone that claim the players run out and never miss on 4 1/2" pockets so that's why they need to be 4" instead!
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the match in which he didn't miss was on 4" pockets. but since you mention it, here's him playing on 4.5" pockets:


alex did get to shoot once, if the lag shot counts.
 
realkingcobra said:
Name ONE player that has ever ran 13 and out from the break in a tournament!!!
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Earl? (I know, the equipment was different back then)

Ken_4fun said:
I always laugh at folks who want a tight table. They say things like it will make you a better player, both players are playing on same table, etc. That tells me they really dont understand much about pool.
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I know this has been debated, and neither side had convinced me. For a lower level player, tight pockets will eliminate any extra capacity they have to play position. There's less opportunity to read patterns when 99% of your effort is spent just making the shot. If you can't reliably make a shot, getting position does you little good, And loading up the cue ball to get aggressive about playing position is totally off the table. For higher level player, I do believe that smaller pockets enforce discipline.

sjm said:
Not sure how that works. If it's 4-3 after two hours in a race to nine, do you declare the one with four to have won the match? What's the process?
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They both lose.

I've won some totally embarrassing matches 4-3 and it only took an hour and 15, tops. And we're talking about playing so bad I disgraced the game and brought dishonor upon my family. People watching were traumatized.
 
More (or moar depending on who's talking) precision is not currently a requirement of the show. Therefore, how can it be expected that immediate gains will manifest at the mere tightening of the apertures? Change comes slowly - maybe slowerly for poolers. If you tighten, they will learn... especially if you awaken the dog in 'em. lol...
 
tomatoshooter said:
Earl? (I know, the equipment was different back then)


I know this has been debated, and neither side had convinced me. For a lower level player, tight pockets will eliminate any extra capacity they have to play position. There's less opportunity to read patterns when 99% of your effort is spent just making the shot. If you can't reliably make a shot, getting position does you little good, And loading up the cue ball to get aggressive about playing position is totally off the table. For higher level player, I do believe that smaller pockets enforce discipline.


They both lose.

I've won some totally embarrassing matches 4-3 and it only took an hour and 15, tops. And we're talking about playing so bad I disgraced the game and brought dishonor upon my family. People watching were traumatized.
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Professional matches need to be a single elimination, race to 21 3 hour match time limit. There shouldn't be a second chance to win, that's just my opinion.
 
straightline said:
More (or moar depending on who's talking) precision is not currently a requirement of the show. Therefore, how can it be expected that immediate gains will manifest at the mere tightening of the apertures? Change comes slowly - maybe slowerly for poolers. If you tighten, they will learn... especially if you awaken the dog in 'em. lol...
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Then why is the cup in golf the same size for everyone, world wide?
 
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