Poll: Do you use BHE, FHE, parallel english or all 3?

[Gerry]

I think one of the MOST important points in Joe's vid, and it can be overlooked by newer players, is that He stressed "WALKING INTO THE SHOT" meaning you have picked out what spin you will be using BEFORE you start your preshot! this allows a player to "walk into" the shot on the correct line when using that particular spin. You CAN take the same shot hit with different spin and you need to address the shot from different angles.

hope this makes sense for example>>> you have a straight shot, but want to hit it with left spin. You walk into the shot aiming slightly left on the spot on the object ball you need to hit to pocket the ball.The "squirt" of your cue, along with which BHE, FHE etc. you use will push the cueball back right to the correct aim point on the object ball and leave the cueball spinning even though you hit a straight shot.


great info Joe, and the rest of you guys!

G.


P.S. newbys>>>>>this is why when you get down on a shot then change your mind on the spin and hit it anyway........many times you miss! You need to get up and start over if you change your mind.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Should the term "parallel" be banned?

Then it's a term for a technique that doesn't work. Not particularly useful, if you ask me.

If you don't know that the cue must be "angled off" in order to make shots with sidespin, then I'm not surprised that my statement makes no sense to you.

I can see after re-reading my post how it could be misunderstood, I was trying to reconcile two different points than the ones you connected. Anyway, in an attempt to bridge the miscommunication gap that I am confident exists among many..... 2 questions:

Isn't "angling off" in any way, BHE and/or FHE?

Players that make balls using what they believe to be parallel english, are they in actuality making "angling off" adjustments?

But I'm very surprised that any pool player above rank beginner, especially one who hangs around pool forums, doesn't know that.

What do you spot rank beginners? I'll take it. Please tap out your savings account and bring a hefty full of benji's. :smile: I think every player at times makes adjustments by feel that they are not entirely aware of, and I believe that may be a big part of the issue here.

... you really should stop using terms that mislead people who don't know much about squirt..

@ 30% of the people who voted on this poll so far, voted "parallel", including our highly respected Bill Marop. If this term should be banned from our vocabulary, or be better defined among those above beginner level, perhaps forum thread discussions such as this is a good thing to that end. :thumbup:

Peace,

Matt

 

[Aaron_S]

I think this is the most difficult topic in pool to talk about, because so many of us don't really know exactly what we do when we apply spin to the ball. I had never even thought about it until someone asked me. They showed me the BHE technique, which looked really hokey to me at the time, and I just thought "well, I definitely don't do that funky stuff, so I must be using parallel." Fact is, I didn't have any clue what I was doing, but my technique ended up being just as "funky" as BHE.

As a beginning player, somebody told me I should start using side spin, so I did... and I continued to pocket balls pretty much like I had been. I had not the faintest notion that I was using a technique of applying spin that was automatically compensating for a bunch of squirt. My game continued to climb, to a respectable level, yet I still wasn't compensating (knowingly) for anything but swerve.

I think a lot of us are in that same boat. Through practice, we come up with a technique that gets the ball in the hole on a regular basis, perhaps even attaining a very high level of play, and the assumption is that we fully understand what we're doing, but we may not. I thought I had been using parallel english. That is, until I found out how much a ball can really squirt when you hit it off-center.

I had been drastically underestimating the effect of squirt, and I knew I wasn't aiming to miss the entire object ball by six inches to compensate for it, so I must be doing something else to make that massive correction. Turns out I was using FHE, it just took 10 years (and a couple of people like Bob Jewett, Fred Agnir, and probably Patrick Johnson to challenge my way of thinking) for me to do the experimentation and find out for sure what was going on. It was a real eye opener for me.

Now, if someone taught you BHE as a novice, and you've been using it ever since, then it's pretty clear that you know what's going on, but if you just sort of fell into using english like I did, you may not know for sure. My advice for those of you who are not 100% sure what you do is to save yourself the embarrassment by not making too many assumptions about it. Do some experimentation on your own; you may be surprised at what you find.

Aaron

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Just a few thoughts -

1) With FHE, the pivot point is not the bridge hand. With a fixed back-hand, the pivot point is the butt-end of the cue.

2) Most people who think they place their cue on an offset position parallel to the line of aim actually don't. The cue is almost always turned slightly which mitigates the initial squirt.

3) Equipment has a big impact on which technique you SHOULD use

4) None of the mentioned techniques eliminate squirt completely, so you should use the one that eliminates it the most based on the equipment you use.

 

[12310bch]

correct word

Note to Robley------- Get a spell checker, Kid.

sorry to disagree, but in most cases INSTINK conveys the message in a much more correct and colorful manner.:wink:

 

[EZMoney]

Dog barking at Cat

MAN you're hard on the Cat. Don't you know he's the reining NC AZKing, he just defended his title this past wkend.

Then it's a term for a technique that doesn't work. Not particularly useful, if you ask me.



If you don't know that the cue must be "angled off" in order to make shots with sidespin, then I'm not surprised that my statement makes no sense to you. But I'm very surprised that any pool player above rank beginner, especially one who hangs around pool forums, doesn't know that.



That's cute, but you really should stop using terms that mislead people who don't know much about squirt (such as, apparently, yourself).

pj

 

[BryanBpool]

I just shoot the effing balls in the holes...


Less thinking, more doing :-D

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Parallel English is a method used when you intentionally need to have the CB squirt into the OB.

You can use this technique when the CB and OB are lined up straight to the left side of the pocket and you want to apply High Right English so that the cue ball will go into the rail next to the pocket with right spin for the desired effect.

FHE, BHE and PE are all methods that can be used to compensate or use cue ball squirt/deflection.

I don't understand why anyone considers PE wrong... please explain. Maybe it is because they have never been aware that there is a usefulness to PE?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Players that make balls using what they believe to be parallel english, are they in actuality making "angling off" adjustments?

Yes. That's the point I'm making. You can't make shots using sidespin unless you aim your stick a little off to the side.

Isn't "angling off" in any way, BHE and/or FHE?

No. BHE and FHE are two techniques for finding the correct angle to compensate for squirt, but they're not the only techniques. However, whatever technique you use to find the angle, your stick must be at the same angle for the amount of sidespin you're using. The point here is that angle isn't parallel to anything (especially not parallel to the path you want the CB to follow), so using the term "parallel english" is misleading and confusing - you yourself were misled and confused by it.

What do you spot rank beginners? I'll take it. Please tap out your savings account and bring a hefty full of benji's. :smile:

Very manly of you, but beside the point. The point is (again) that the term "parallel english" isn't just wrong; it misleads beginners (and even more experienced players).

I think every player at times makes adjustments by feel that they are not entirely aware of, and I believe that may be a big part of the issue here.

Of course.

@ 30% of the people who voted on this poll so far, voted "parallel", including our highly respected Bill Marop. If this term should be banned from our vocabulary, or be better defined among those above beginner level, perhaps forum thread discussions such as this is a good thing to that end. :thumbup:

That's why I brought it up. Sorry I had to make an example of you.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Pat,

You say people can't make any shots with PE unless the cue is turned and that's not right. You assume no one has the ability to adjust their aim. People who use PE effectively either shoot with a turned cue or they have a gift in adjusting their aim point REALLY well.

Dave

 

[dr9ball]

Some people adjust their aiming point on the object ball to compensate for squirt.

There are different methods that work for applying english.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Pat,

You say people can't make any shots with PE unless the cue is turned and that's not right. You assume no one has the ability to adjust their aim. People who use PE effectively either shoot with a turned cue or they have a gift in adjusting their aim point REALLY well.

Dave

You're talking about different ways of accomplishing the same thing.

Let's take an example (ignoring swerve for simplicity):

Say you want to contact the CB 1/4" from center to apply sidespin (that's the amount of sidespin you need). Let's also say that your shaft produces 1 degree of squirt for a 1/4" tip offset. That means you have to angle your stick 1 degree off of "parallel" in the opposite direction in order to hit your target.

It doesn't matter whether you "turn your cue" or "adjust your aim" - it's the same final adjustment either way, resulting in the cue being pointed 1 degree off of "parallel". When you hit 1/4" offcenter on the CB your stick must be pointed 1 degree off of "parallel" (in this example) or you'll miss the shot.

There are different techniques to get your stick 1 degree off of parallel, and they go by different names. I'm not saying there's only one way to get there; I'm saying the name of one of the techniques should not be "parallel english" - that's misleading because it isn't accomplished by shifting the cue parallel and the end result is not parallel; it's the same 1 degree off of parallel no matter how you get there.

pj
chgo

P.S. Just as a point of interest, a 1-degree angle is about 1/4" per foot of travel. That means the shaft in this example produces squirt equal to the amount of tip offset (1/4" in this case) for every foot of travel, which means the shaft's "natural pivot point" is 12 inches. That means if the amount of tip offset was 1/2", the squirt produced would be 1/2" per foot of travel or about 2 degrees. So although 1 degree of squirt doesn't sound like much, it's actually "high squirt" - 1/4" per foot of travel will cause you to miss just about every shot if it's not compensated for.

P.P.S. I don't "assume no one has the ability to adjust their aim". That (by feel) is how I do it. I just wouldn't call it "parallel" english.

 

[Joe T]

You're talking about different ways of accomplishing the same thing.

Let's take an example (ignoring swerve for simplicity):

Say you want to contact the CB 1/4" from center to apply sidespin (that's the amount of sidespin you need). Let's also say that your shaft produces 1 degree of squirt for a 1/4" tip offset. That means you have to angle your stick 1 degree off of "parallel" in the opposite direction in order to hit your target.

It doesn't matter whether you "turn your cue" or "adjust your aim" - it's the same final adjustment either way, resulting in the cue being pointed 1 degree off of "parallel". When you hit 1/4" offcenter on the CB your stick must be pointed 1 degree off of "parallel" (in this example) or you'll miss the shot.

There are different techniques to get your stick 1 degree off of parallel, and they go by different names. I'm not saying there's only one way to get there; I'm saying the name of one of the techniques should not be "parallel english" - that's misleading because it isn't accomplished by shifting the cue parallel and the end result is not parallel; it's the same 1 degree off of parallel no matter how you get there.

pj
chgo

P.S. Just as a point of interest, a 1-degree angle is about 1/4" per foot of travel. That means the shaft in this example produces squirt equal to the amount of tip offset (1/4" in this case) for every foot of travel, which means the shaft's "natural pivot point" is 12 inches. That means if the amount of tip offset was 1/2", the squirt produced would be 1/2" per foot of travel or about 2 degrees. So although 1 degree of squirt doesn't sound like much, it's actually "high squirt" - 1/4" per foot of travel will cause you to miss just about every shot if it's not compensated for.

P.P.S. I don't "assume no one has the ability to adjust their aim". That (by feel) is how I do it. I just wouldn't call it "parallel" english.

I might have missed something cuz I'm in a rush and just stopped by and really shouldn't even be typing right now but isn't it simply called parallel cuz you set your stick up parallel to the aim line of center cb to center ghost ball and then yes the cb does go off on an angle. I think I might have missed something so forgive in advance if I did.
I'll check back later.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

isn't it simply called parallel cuz you set your stick up parallel to the aim line of center cb to center ghost ball and then yes the cb does go off on an angle.

In order to make the shot the CB must travel on the cb/ghost ball line. If it goes off on an angle from it, you miss the shot. The cue stick must go off on an angle from the cb/ghost ball line in order to make the shot.

I guess this is harder for people to visualize than I thought.

pj
chgo

 

[Joe T]

In order to make the shot the CB must travel on the cb/ghost ball line. If it goes off on an angle from it, you miss the shot. The cue stick must go off on an angle from the cb/ghost ball line in order to make the shot.

I guess this is harder for people to visualize than I thought.

pj
chgo

I think I see it now by visualizing how to make a straight in shot with what we now wrongly call parallel english.

You're correct, to make this shot I would have to initially aim for a ghost ball off to the side of where the cb has to hit on the ob therefore my stick although parallel to the center of the cb is now angled off the center to center aim line.
Thank you, I hadn't seen it that way before even though I knew how I would have had to aim it.
I think we might now call it "parallel cb english"??

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think I see it now by visualizing how to make a straight in shot with what we now wrongly call parallel english.

You're correct, to make this shot I would have to initially aim for a ghost ball off to the side of where the cb has to hit on the ob therefore my stick although parallel to the center of the cb is now angled off the center to center aim line.

Parallel only applies to lines. The center of the CB is a point, so it's impossible to be parallel to it.

I think we might now call it "parallel cb english"??

I think the word parallel has to go. How about BHE, FHE and "other"?

To tell you the truth, I don't much like the labels backhand or fronthand english, since sidespin isn't really applied those ways either, but at least they describe an action that's part of the process.

pj
chgo

 

[Joe T]

Parallel only applies to lines. The center of the CB is a point, so it's impossible to be parallel to it.



I think the word parallel has to go. How about BHE, FHE and "other"?

To tell you the truth, I don't much like the labels backhand or fronthand english, since sidespin isn't really applied those ways either, but at least they describe an action that's part of the process.

pj
chgo

Alrighty, do you have any suggestions? Convert me but right now I'm kinda happy with BHE, FHE & PcbE but if you have something that's better for the game I'm all ears, I mean eyes.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

We should just call it "Patrick Johnson" english, or PJ for short. Since he doesn't like the term - and he's an authority on pool - we should just name it after him. That way, PJ english lives forever.... just as his knowledge lives forever...within all of us.

FHE, BHE, PJ. That's it.

 

[Joe T]

We should just call it "Patrick Johnson" english, or PJ for short. Since he doesn't like the term - and he's an authority on pool - we should just name it after him. That way, PJ english lives forever.... just as his knowledge lives forever...within all of us.

FHE, BHE, PJ. That's it.

)

Dave you cut the prongs down yet?

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

We should just call it "Patrick Johnson" english, or PJ for short. Since he doesn't like the term - and he's an authority on pool - we should just name it after him. That way, PJ english lives forever.... just as his knowledge lives forever...within all of us.

FHE, BHE, PJ. That's it.

I don't know Spidey, that might hurt Charlie Parallel's feelings - who invented the method in the 40's - (but I hear he's come down with Ballzheimers lately, so maybe not.)