He always has the advantage of playing on his home table.
Pool is NOT Declining!
- Thread starter Fast Lenny
- Start date
Handicapped tournaments. In NYC, we have various tournaments but all of them have pretty much the same format and the same players. If you're a B in the Tri State tour, you're probably a B in the Predator Tour and probably a B at Steinway etc.
For instance, at Steinway Billiards every other weekend they have a handicapped tournament. $60 entry, optional $30 side pot. $1000 added. ABCD format tournament, like all tournaments out here. Because it's handicapped, everyone has a fairly equal chance of winning. Therefore, the field fills. Steinway doesn't take money out of the entry fees so the prize money is great. First place over $1000. Steinway makes their money off the bar/food sales. It's a win win all around.
At the end of the year, if you've played in 7 (I think) events, you qualify for the year end tournament with huge added money. Last year Castle Billiards ran the same format and their year end tournament was I think $25,000 added.
Tony Robles runs The Predator Tour with basically the same format. You can see it here: http://www.predatorproamtour.com/
We are lucky to have so many options and great tours out here.
Ranmar
Registered
This makes complete sense. Strong, consistent tournament opportunities at the level between league and pro would bring a lot of quality players into the fold. And quality local or regional players are quite possibly a bigger draw in the eyes of league players than pros.
May I Respectfully Disagree.......
I would like to agree with the OP.........I'd like to think he's right................but he is wrong.
Say what you might about certain locales for pool or league participation, etc. If you truly
want to get a handle on the status of pool, then go to the most single most important data
set......anything else is misleading because it distorts the genuine marketplace,
What is the missing data that pretty much outlines the status of pool......let's start with the 60's,
then the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000....then 2010 amd right now.....2017. Track this by decade and
at the same time, overlay the nation's population growth.....y0u can do this with line graph
illustrations and the answer will stare you right in the face,
The number of pool hall closings has been on a straight line dowmward and the population rate
is just the opposite, There are locations where pool halls no longer exist, except perhaps as a
sports bar setup., Sure you can always find towns where it might be just the opposite and pool
still flourishes but the national profile, aside from say APA membership growth, has steadily been
bleak,especially over the past 10 years.
I know someone will post and write something like...."Not in my town. etc.". Well, this thread is not
really about your town or the region where you live. If it was, then I'd have composed a different reply.
Just look at the number of pool halls in operation and let's use last year as a base number....2016.
How many poll halls were in operation in 1966? Compare that with the number of pool halls in 1976?
Then 1986, 1996, 2006 and finally 2016. Don;t use social media tweets or APA recreational
league data or anything similar. Look at the brutal business facts....the undeniable truth.....the number of pool
halls still succesfully operating across the nation.......the trend line reveals the wicked, naked truth.
Just as my post started with..........I'd like to be wrong and the OP right..........but I'm not and he is....look
at the hard cold facts and it is not pretty. Pool will have ups & downs but the ups tend to be short lived.
!962 was a lift...so was 1986........but the lift did not last and returned to its former downward trend and
looking at cue prices or the # of cue-makers is irrelevant.....How many pool halls are still operating?
I would like to agree with the OP.........I'd like to think he's right................but he is wrong.
Say what you might about certain locales for pool or league participation, etc. If you truly
want to get a handle on the status of pool, then go to the most single most important data
set......anything else is misleading because it distorts the genuine marketplace,
What is the missing data that pretty much outlines the status of pool......let's start with the 60's,
then the 70's, 80's, 90's and 2000....then 2010 amd right now.....2017. Track this by decade and
at the same time, overlay the nation's population growth.....y0u can do this with line graph
illustrations and the answer will stare you right in the face,
The number of pool hall closings has been on a straight line dowmward and the population rate
is just the opposite, There are locations where pool halls no longer exist, except perhaps as a
sports bar setup., Sure you can always find towns where it might be just the opposite and pool
still flourishes but the national profile, aside from say APA membership growth, has steadily been
bleak,especially over the past 10 years.
I know someone will post and write something like...."Not in my town. etc.". Well, this thread is not
really about your town or the region where you live. If it was, then I'd have composed a different reply.
Just look at the number of pool halls in operation and let's use last year as a base number....2016.
How many poll halls were in operation in 1966? Compare that with the number of pool halls in 1976?
Then 1986, 1996, 2006 and finally 2016. Don;t use social media tweets or APA recreational
league data or anything similar. Look at the brutal business facts....the undeniable truth.....the number of pool
halls still succesfully operating across the nation.......the trend line reveals the wicked, naked truth.
Just as my post started with..........I'd like to be wrong and the OP right..........but I'm not and he is....look
at the hard cold facts and it is not pretty. Pool will have ups & downs but the ups tend to be short lived.
!962 was a lift...so was 1986........but the lift did not last and returned to its former downward trend and
looking at cue prices or the # of cue-makers is irrelevant.....How many pool halls are still operating?
So correct and he explained it in a civil manner.
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Bavafongoul is correct. Pool has been declining for a hundred years if you use the proliferation of poolrooms as a measure. In Pa., Nj., Md, De, and Ny there are plenty of poolrooms going strong. However in these parts APA and TAP is strong in the bars, upscale and downscale. Plenty of production cues and pool paraphenalia are being sold to these bar room APA and TAP players. After all, there are a lot of billiard retailers on the internet. Someone must be keeping these sites open. Will they migrate to the poolrooms? Probably not, because they are more social players than player players. Some serious players do play in APA and TAP but not enough. That's part of the problem in my opinion.
Custom pool cue sales ARE DECLINING.
I have a few great cues that I can't give away in this day and age.
I hate APA too.
Thanks
Kevin
I have a few great cues that I can't give away in this day and age.
I hate APA too.
Thanks
Kevin
Kevin......I'm busy buying some guns between now and next year.
I've convinced all my kids (4) to obtain their CCW permits and I've
told them their classes, permit costs and their 1st handgun was my
treat. And on Fathers Day, I bought myself a new gun for my CCW.
The bottomline is this is going to cost me a lot, especially with some
of the handguns my kids have indicated they were interested in. Once
I get this taken care of, maybe next year we could work on your great
TS cue if it's still around. I fell in your with your cue at first sight & even
though Jerry R. made me a similar cue last year which you knew, there's
just no substutute for the original cue that excited me after first seeing it.
Matt B.
I've convinced all my kids (4) to obtain their CCW permits and I've
told them their classes, permit costs and their 1st handgun was my
treat. And on Fathers Day, I bought myself a new gun for my CCW.
The bottomline is this is going to cost me a lot, especially with some
of the handguns my kids have indicated they were interested in. Once
I get this taken care of, maybe next year we could work on your great
TS cue if it's still around. I fell in your with your cue at first sight & even
though Jerry R. made me a similar cue last year which you knew, there's
just no substutute for the original cue that excited me after first seeing it.
Matt B.
Bava...with tv subscriptions declining, you'd think no one was watching. But it's not completely interest that's gone, it's just relocated elsewhere. Same with pool halls. Slate deliveries may give a clearer picture for your data analysis as there's a lot of home rooms/tables.
justinb386
Banned
I have never been a bowler, but I have never lived anywhere where bowling did not seem to be very popular (among the league players, and general public). It would be a dream come true to see pool become half as popular as bowling seems (to me) to be.
justinb386
Banned
I hear all this talk all of the time about pool being dead. It is more popular now then ever by the numbers of amateur/recreational players playing it. Leagues seem to be okay. The only part of pool that has declined is with the pro players. There are more pros and wannabe pro players then ever before so the money is spread out thin and prize money has dropped or not saw an increase. Pro pool needs some help but the amateur side is doing awesome. Carry on now.
Yeah, the leagues are always very popular, but why no pool (cash) tournaments? Why are the league players not interested in playing in pool tournaments? I recently moved to Greensboro NC, and there is only 1 single (singles) tournament that I know of in this city of around 300,000 people (with several nice pool rooms here). Yeah, many people seem to enjoy visiting, and playing the game, but there are no tournaments (that I know of) yet, other then 1 on Saturday nights, at Gate City Billiards, and it is a strange type of Round Robin tournament, where everyone plays everyone 1 single game, and they keep going around like that until they have a winner (based on a players handicap, and how many games they have lost). So, not 1 single regular tournament that I know of in this area. At least there are some very nice pool rooms here (with very cheap rates, and some even free in the day time, like at Jakes near UNCG), and I am happy about that.
Where do you live?
Bowling leagues are almost non-existant all over.
Open play "Cosmic Bowling" is the only thing keeping Bowling Houses open.
The same is happening to pool. Ball Bangers fill the till.
Brunswick Bowling was sold to QubicaAMF an Italian company.
AMF Bowling is owned by the same Italian company.
Bowling in Asia is very popular.
Bowling in India is big with families on the weekend.
Bowling in China is big.
Enough talk about bowling.
Let's play pool!
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Bavafongoul is right. There is one and only one measure of how healthy pool is in America, and that is how many total hours of it are being played on a daily basis in comparison to the total number of the population. While this figure would be difficult to determine, a great indicator is how many pool halls there are in comparison to the population and how full those pool halls are on an average day.
Ask yourself these questions and really think hard about it. Compared to 10 years ago, are there more pool halls or less pool halls in your area? Are the pool halls more filled or less filled with people?
Even if the number of pool halls and how full they were stayed exactly the same, the sport is still actually shrinking since the population has increased and the number of pool halls and players would have also had to increase just to keep up where things stayed the same.
But the reality for most people in most areas is that there are actually less pool halls filled with less people compared to 10 years ago. You will see the same thing if you compare 10 years ago to 20 years ago. The trend is obvious and clear--a decrease in pool halls, an increase in population. Pool is without a doubt steadily shrinking and to think otherwise requires nothing less than a willful ignorance and sticking your head in the sand.
Ask yourself these questions and really think hard about it. Compared to 10 years ago, are there more pool halls or less pool halls in your area? Are the pool halls more filled or less filled with people?
Even if the number of pool halls and how full they were stayed exactly the same, the sport is still actually shrinking since the population has increased and the number of pool halls and players would have also had to increase just to keep up where things stayed the same.
But the reality for most people in most areas is that there are actually less pool halls filled with less people compared to 10 years ago. You will see the same thing if you compare 10 years ago to 20 years ago. The trend is obvious and clear--a decrease in pool halls, an increase in population. Pool is without a doubt steadily shrinking and to think otherwise requires nothing less than a willful ignorance and sticking your head in the sand.
Just look at all the same old farts sitting in the seats of the major tournaments. Same ones year after year. All the young guys and gals are playing in the leagues. Most young ones today are smart enough NOT to try and become a pro. Only one or two Americans can make a good living. Johnnyt
This is the key issue in my opinion. People talked about cycles previously in the thread, but the cycles didn't have to fade these pool leagues. In my opinion, the leagues are good for one sect of people, the league owners, and perhaps the people enjoying themselves in the leagues. I can't answer your first question for the life of me; why people will sink 50 dollars per week into a league but won't pay a 20 dollar entry fee tournament I'll never be able to figure.
This is debatable of course, but I think the leagues are the end of pool. I'm just basing that off of sort of the microcosm in my area. Leagues arrived, and all the sudden ten years later there were NO serious players. Not a one (I know this for a fact because if there were I'd be out there robbing them). Tournaments completely disappeared. I have no idea why, but they did. Imagine if in Major League Baseball the MLB league disappeared, and was replaced by a bunch of little money making baseball leagues where people drank and had a good time. There would be no more good baseball players in an instant. The main problem as I see it is the leagues have the funds to advertise and pull people in. Tournament directors will never get that sort of pull.
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Is is that leagues are the end of pool, or is it just that you think they are the end of the type of pool that you just happen to most prefer (but that some others least prefer)?
Ever stop and consider if this is exactly one of the [many] reasons people are being pushed away and that maybe leagues are the last sanctuary for those that love the game but hate the sleazy side of the pool scene and the people in it such as yourself? I would have to think that this mentality is a factor (the get all the money from all the suckers that you can) and the only real question is whether the impact of this mentality is significant or negligible. You have to admit though that being immersed in a culture with this type of mentality wouldn't exactly be appealing to many or maybe even most new players.
There are two separate issues here. One is how much pool as a whole and the amount of players in it is declining. The other is to what extent are the existing pool players just migrating from one "scene" to another, with some of the various scenes being the gambling, tournament, league, and casual playing scenes. You seem to be talking almost exclusively about the latter, while many others are talking about the former. Both are worthy of discussion though.
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One last problem with the post. League players aren't paying $50 to the league. They are paying $8-$ 10 to the league of which the owner gets a cut and then the owner gets the other $40 (spent on alcohol and food). That $40 keeps the lights on so the "Real" pool players like yourself can come in a pay for a free refill coke while complaining about how pool halls are closing.
By the way, those league players are in it for the social aspect not just competition.
I don't play in leagues. Multiple reasons for it. I like tournaments. There isn't enough of them. But this isn't because of league players. The last time I played in a tournament, it was my only day off in two weeks. I had a few beers and bought food for my wife and I. Some "Pool Player" made a snide comment about how I was cheating by drinking. Another one made a comment about how I have to come in and flash money (He means buy food and beer while playing). They didn't think that I heard them. They obviously didn't like the fact that I bought myself cheap in the calcutta and placed in the tourney. When I get a chance to go out, I'm going to have a good time. This involves alcohol, food, my drinking buddies and my designated driver wife. Now I have to fade snide comments by people who couldn't support their ass with both hands. I guess I broke the mold in their feeble little minds that said to be good you had to gamble. I wasn't the dead money that they thought I was.
The funny part was trying to get a waitress. They were spending all their time by the dart boards. So my buddy and I flagged one down and asked her if we had the plague or something. Her response, "Your're actually going to buy something? I'm not used to pool players buying something. If I miss you please come get me. I have to spend time by the people spending money". I can't make this shit up.
Also, a smoking poolhall is catering to 18% of the population. I can't take breathing that stuff anymore. I feel it for days afterward. I actually was on the way to play a month ago and turned around because I didn't want to breathe that stuff. How many middle income people avoid playing due to smoke? I'm not advocating law changes either.
I get tired of all that shat. As a result, I've played outside the house twice in the last 12 months. My table is my fortress of solitude. No smoke, no pool hall economists, no loose racking cheating crap. Just the game and my friends AND good food and drink.
I think Jay's analysis here is correct. Pool will probably never experience a sustained upswing, but it probably will experience another boomlet at some point. Right now I think how you think pool is doing is somewhat dependent upon where you live. In pockets around the country there are lots of players, lots of places to play, and nice places to play. In other areas pool rooms are hard to find. Here in Indianapolis for example there are only 2 poolrooms which based on population is unfortunate, but there is a fairly large league system. Pool isn't going away, but it will probably always wax and wane.
ChevyBob20 has illustrated some of the real reasons Billiards Rooms are not doing well.
New people are reluctant to even enter a "Pool Hall" because of the intimidation factor.
Same goes for a league player entering a tournament. Why would I want to place myself in the lion's den?
Our waitress told me the same thing.
Quote from chevybob20:
The funny part was trying to get a waitress. They were spending all their time by the dart boards.
So my buddy and I flagged one down and asked her if we had the plague or something.
Her response, "Your're actually going to buy something?"
"I'm not used to pool players buying something."
"If I miss you please come get me. I have to spend time by the people spending money".
I can't make this shit up.
New people are reluctant to even enter a "Pool Hall" because of the intimidation factor.
Same goes for a league player entering a tournament. Why would I want to place myself in the lion's den?
Our waitress told me the same thing.
Quote from chevybob20:
The funny part was trying to get a waitress. They were spending all their time by the dart boards.
So my buddy and I flagged one down and asked her if we had the plague or something.
Her response, "Your're actually going to buy something?"
"I'm not used to pool players buying something."
"If I miss you please come get me. I have to spend time by the people spending money".
I can't make this shit up.
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Not My Intention To Sound Redundant.......
I am not a world traveller and so I cannot speak about other countries and their pool patronage habits.
However, regardless of what is taking place overseas even if pool was on a strong growth trend, the
only thing that matters to me is how's pool doing right here in the good old USA....I am not going to
obtain a passport so I can enjoy the rising popularity of pool, if that was so, outside the USA borders.
As far as I'm concerned, if I reside in a locale that is suffering from extreme heat & drought conditions,
I really don't give a tinkers dam about copious rainfall conditions in say the southeast, let alone in
another country. I guess Im just pragmatic in my appoach to pool and life in general. It doesn't do me
a bit of good to hear of heavy rainfall in other distant states when I am living in a dought plagued
region. Just alike, it also doesn't do much for a declining state of affairs of pool right here in the USA
even if pool was flourishing on other continents.
Anyway, I don't know how pool is faring worldwide but I know that pocket billiards, i.e., snooker, is
revered in England and draws massive TV audiences and ticket sales as well. Heck, they even do it
for darts so like I earlier wrote, I cannot speak of what's happening outside the USA. But I've been
playing pool for 56 years and lived in many different cities across the nation. So when I write that pool
halls are on a downward trend, it's based upon fact & it's not because of people having home tables.
I had a pool table in my home for over 26 years and I had lots of buddies come over but know what?
During that same span of time, I lived in 7 different cities around the nation. I always played at the
local pool halls wherever I lived. My home table was for convenience and enjoyment but make no
mistake about it. If you want to become a stronger player and competitor, you need to get off your
home table and play in the public against better players.....and the pool hall is the breeding ground.
So I don't think that pool has become undermined thru the urbanization and proliferation of home
pool tables. It may be booming in other countries but based upon my observation and assessment
of how pool has changed over the past six decades since I played in the '60's, '70's '80's, '90's, '00
& '10 thru the present, it's on the decline right here in the USA.....Again, I'd like to be wrong but I'm not.
Matt B.
I am not a world traveller and so I cannot speak about other countries and their pool patronage habits.
However, regardless of what is taking place overseas even if pool was on a strong growth trend, the
only thing that matters to me is how's pool doing right here in the good old USA....I am not going to
obtain a passport so I can enjoy the rising popularity of pool, if that was so, outside the USA borders.
As far as I'm concerned, if I reside in a locale that is suffering from extreme heat & drought conditions,
I really don't give a tinkers dam about copious rainfall conditions in say the southeast, let alone in
another country. I guess Im just pragmatic in my appoach to pool and life in general. It doesn't do me
a bit of good to hear of heavy rainfall in other distant states when I am living in a dought plagued
region. Just alike, it also doesn't do much for a declining state of affairs of pool right here in the USA
even if pool was flourishing on other continents.
Anyway, I don't know how pool is faring worldwide but I know that pocket billiards, i.e., snooker, is
revered in England and draws massive TV audiences and ticket sales as well. Heck, they even do it
for darts so like I earlier wrote, I cannot speak of what's happening outside the USA. But I've been
playing pool for 56 years and lived in many different cities across the nation. So when I write that pool
halls are on a downward trend, it's based upon fact & it's not because of people having home tables.
I had a pool table in my home for over 26 years and I had lots of buddies come over but know what?
During that same span of time, I lived in 7 different cities around the nation. I always played at the
local pool halls wherever I lived. My home table was for convenience and enjoyment but make no
mistake about it. If you want to become a stronger player and competitor, you need to get off your
home table and play in the public against better players.....and the pool hall is the breeding ground.
So I don't think that pool has become undermined thru the urbanization and proliferation of home
pool tables. It may be booming in other countries but based upon my observation and assessment
of how pool has changed over the past six decades since I played in the '60's, '70's '80's, '90's, '00
& '10 thru the present, it's on the decline right here in the USA.....Again, I'd like to be wrong but I'm not.
Matt B.