pool rule
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GuyI-NJ
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I've played in tournaments that consider this a foul - they consider it an aiming device.
I think this is considered a foul under BCA rules for the exact reason that GuyI-NJ stated. Not a fould in the APA, though. Don't know about the other leagues. I do recall Jim Helfert and Cornerman wondering about it during a TAR match (Alex-Shane Action Challenge III, I think) when Shane put his cue down and let go with both hands. Never really understood the need for this rule.
The rule that it breaks is improper use of equipment. It can be suggested that you're using the cue as a measuring device and you're only allowed to do so while holding/touching it. I have never called a foul on someone for laying their cue on the table and tying their shoe. Not sure how quick I would be to call a foul in a more obvious situation.
The World Standardized Rules are on-line at http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_summary
The particular foul in your question is covered at: http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_fouls#6.12 The foul only applies if you are using the stick to line up your shot. It's not a foul to rest the cue stick on the bed of the table while you are tying your shoes.
Whenever someone trots out what appears to be a bogus rule, ask them for a printed or on-line source. Usually the rule is from their Uncle Max who got it from Grandpa.
The rule -- which I don't agree with, but it's the rule -- was put in to thwart players who often plan shots from various angles which includes laying the stick on the table along various paths. In my view, the right way to combat that practice is enforce the anti-slow play rule. If the technique does not slow them down, then I see no problem with it.
This is good because I tie my shoes all the time. No, not ocd. I either get bad laces A LOT or I'm simply horrible at tying knots - not sure which.
If its not used as an aiming device it is not a foul. If in fact that they do use it for aiming it is a foul.
Once i caught a guy using a piece of chalk as a marker for a kick shot. I told not to do it again or ill get a referee to watch the match. He didnt but that was the moment i knew he a weak pathetic cheater!!!
I buried him!!!!!
Once i caught a guy using a piece of chalk as a marker for a kick shot. I told not to do it again or ill get a referee to watch the match. He didnt but that was the moment i knew he a weak pathetic cheater!!!
I buried him!!!!!
Good explaination and thanks for posting the rule link Bob. I remember when they first wrote the rule...or maybe it was when I first heard of it...it was a foul to simply lay the cue (unattended) on the table period. I got called on it once when I put my cue on the table as my opponent was racking the balls and I was marking the score sheet. He called a referee over and the referee called a foul on me...ouch!
It has been refined to include the phrase 'when used to measure a shot' (or something to that effect). That better defines the rule and clearly gives a reason for the rule. As I understood the rule in my afore mentioned situation, it was intended to be enforced when 'used to measure a shot', but it was clearly written without that specification so the call was correct...by the letter of the rule not the intent of the rule. I'm glad they changed it.
As mentioned, it varies from league to league, house to house. I wish everyone would play be the same rules...it would all be so much easier.
L8R...Ken
It has been refined to include the phrase 'when used to measure a shot' (or something to that effect). That better defines the rule and clearly gives a reason for the rule. As I understood the rule in my afore mentioned situation, it was intended to be enforced when 'used to measure a shot', but it was clearly written without that specification so the call was correct...by the letter of the rule not the intent of the rule. I'm glad they changed it.
As mentioned, it varies from league to league, house to house. I wish everyone would play be the same rules...it would all be so much easier.
L8R...Ken
Of course, it's difficult to protect yourself against a referee who may not have complete knowledge of the rules but AS A RULE, fouls that are issued outside of game play are supposed to be for a serious offense. If you feel you did nothing terribly out of the routine, you should argue as much as you can get away with.
If any of you happened to watch the stream of the Pacquiao Open at Hard Times over the weekend, this situation came up at a rather important moment, but nothing was made of it. I was attending in person so I don't know if the commentators picked it up but in the Gomez-Dominguez hot seat match Roberto was on 2 fouls when he came to the table, laid his cue down along the line of a shot he was looking at, and let go of it.
I don't know what was in his head but he wasn't tying his shoe. He was definitely looking over the lay out and mulling his options at the time. Now that I think of it, IIRC this was the hill-hill game. Oscar did not call a foul and Gomez ends up winning the rack/match and goes on to win the event.
I don't know what was in his head but he wasn't tying his shoe. He was definitely looking over the lay out and mulling his options at the time. Now that I think of it, IIRC this was the hill-hill game. Oscar did not call a foul and Gomez ends up winning the rack/match and goes on to win the event.
This was a pretty young referee and I really didn't think it would turn out very well if I agrued with him. I did ask him if he was thinking of the 'intent' rather than the 'letter of the rule'...he said he was going by what was written...end of my argument. I did end up winning that match anyway, so no hard feelings.
L8R...Ken
BCAPL Application
For the record, in BCAPL play it is not a foul to remove your hand from the cue at any time, even while aligning a shot. That has been the BCAPL rule since 2007. BCAPL Rule 1.3.1a applies.
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
For the record, in BCAPL play it is not a foul to remove your hand from the cue at any time, even while aligning a shot. That has been the BCAPL rule since 2007. BCAPL Rule 1.3.1a applies.
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
That Jim Helfert guy doesn't know jack!
Actually I believe we (Mark Griffin and I) did talk about this briefly. We were uncertain if he was lining up a shot or not. It turned out to have no bearing on the shot as he didn't go that route anyway.
Not as much as his brother.
Jay, DogsPlayingPool made a comment about the Dominguez-Superman match at the Hard Times. Do you remember the incident? You and Mark were in the booth at the time. I don't recall it. By the way that was the best match of the tournament.
I've never heard of this. Although I've also NEVER seen anyone do that during a match.
Thanks for the info, guys.
Thanks for the info, guys.
Yes, Kim Davenport received a warning about this at the US Open. He was unaware of the rule and stated "Damn, have I been away from the game that long?" lol He obviously wasn't trying to pull something, just wasn't aware of the newer rules.
just more hot air!
Sherm