Pool solutions - from golf's predicament??

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
The 3 problems identified in the clip:

1) golf is too expensive

2) golf is too time consuming

3) golf is too hard

Sounds like they want to make the courses into minature golf, putt-putt courses.

Their biggest problem is that the golf industry overbuilt courses during the real estate boom. Too many courses, not enough players.
 

Mark Griffin

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bdorman-

Thanks for letting me know this was already posted. I just did a search and cannot find the previous comments, any suggestions?

BTW - I think there are more similarities to golf and pool.
Golf did overbuild - but did pool.
Golf is expensive - yet pool is very affordable most of the time.
Both are too hard to master.

The idea of 15' golf cups is intriguing. What would be a big pocket in pool (maybe 5.5 inches)?

Markg
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
Both are too hard to master.


Markg

Any game of skill experiences the same "curve" when people are attracted to the game but drop it because it's a lot harder than it looks. I watched this happen big time in tennis in the 1980s, particularly among women (Billy Jean King phenomenum, etc). Women bought rackets, outfits and shoes (always shoes :grin:) and signed up for lessons. After a few weeks they'd quit, or they'd come to the club dressed for tennis but sit and chat and drink instead of play. They discovered that the game was a lot harder than it looked.

At least in pool you can go to the bar, drink, have fun and only shoot a ball when it's your turn. Any dolt can generally hit the CB in the right direction -- not so for golf and tennis.
 

TATE

AzB Gold Mensch
Silver Member
I was sent this by a business associate.
A LOT of similarities between golf and pool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFEYC4Z44v0

You will love some of the discussions - and possible solutions.
I found it very interesting.

Mark Griffin

Nice story. I liked it. I think golf will recover but at a lower level. I quit golfing in the 1990's when golf became overexposed. Courses became crowded, expensive and miserably slow. The onslaught of newbies (presumably from Tiger's popularity) literally ruined the game and I am sure I am as guilty of that as anyone when I was learning the game. I plan on golfing again soon and many of us boomers will when we move away from the crowded metro areas and retire.

Check out the bowling alley decline saga.These are probably not coming back in my opinion.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-07-10/america-s-vanishing-bowling-alleys
 

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onepocket1

Champion Sweater
Silver Member
Bdorman-

Thanks for letting me know this was already posted. I just did a search and cannot find the previous comments, any suggestions?

BTW - I think there are more similarities to golf and pool.
Golf did overbuild - but did pool.
Golf is expensive - yet pool is very affordable most of the time.
Both are too hard to master.

The idea of 15' golf cups is intriguing. What would be a big pocket in pool (maybe 5.5 inches)?

Markg[/QUOTE

Mark -

I like 5.5"pockets for fun players. I remember seeing a ball go into a pocket for the first time (hit em hard and hope). Pockets were about 5" when I started playing and if a ball went in anywhere you got to shoot again. If the game had been call shot on 4"pockets I would have found a new hobby. Pool needs new players and pool needs to be fun.

We could also have some shorter tables for children.
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
Bdorman-

Thanks for letting me know this was already posted. I just did a search and cannot find the previous comments, any suggestions?

BTW - I think there are more similarities to golf and pool.
Golf did overbuild - but did pool.
Golf is expensive - yet pool is very affordable most of the time.
Both are too hard to master.

The idea of 15' golf cups is intriguing. What would be a big pocket in pool (maybe 5.5 inches)?

Markg
In the video they said the fifteen inch cup is three and a half times the size of regulation. If you assume a four and a half inch pocket is regulation for pool that would mean the new pockets would be fifteen and three quarter inches wide.

So I guess just chop about five and a half inches off each end of the rails.

Thats obviously crazy but pretty funny to imagine.
 

JCIN

TheActionReport.com
Gold Member
Pool went through this same boom and bust after TCOM. There were all kinds of nice high end rooms that ended up going bust when the next big thing came along or people just got bored with pool. Look at what happened with pool and cues in Japan to see the same thing.

Golf is just doing it on a much larger scale and the guys like the Taylor Made guy are freaking out that the gravy train is coming to an end.

Pool has already changed a great deal to stay alive in this country. It has went from a big table game in pool rooms to a small table game in bars. In the process the mindset of the players has changed a great deal. See the whole mentality of handicaps, sandbagging and so on.

The coolest thing I saw in that video was the golf nightclub. The only problem is I bet very few of the people there buy gear and go out to a traditional golf course to play a three or four hour round. So while something like that does introduce people to the game (sort of) it probably doesnt have much if any meaningful impact on getting people to actually play the game itself outside of that unique venue of the night club.

I think the best way to grow pool in the US would be to put tables/leagues/industry support in every college possible. Why college and not younger? There is nowhere for people under 18/21 to play anyway. If you get kids in college they are old enough to find a place to play and pool is cheap enough to actually participate in. I would also not have them play for any prize money. Simply for titles and trophies like most other sports.

It would require a level of financial commitment and organization thats non existent in the game today to do it right. Even then it could amount to nothing so I don't see it happening.
 

Kid Dynomite

Dennis (Michael) Wilson
Silver Member
Very interesting!

I have "always" thought that pool and "Night Clubs" needed to be combined!!!

I have seen it done and "Huge" lines for the pool table. Wash, DC black night clubs "ALL" have/had a pool table and several had more than one. They charged a cover charge and free pool. That formula worked great for them.

Champion billiards in frederick, md is a country western dance spot featuring several bands each week. The business caters to what the people want. Unfortunately, the pool gamblers get blown away by the loud music. the two groups that support these businesses can't peacefully coexist. Only thing I can think of is to incorporate "Private/VIP rooms" These sound proof rooms could bridge the gap and allow both to support one another.

The nightclubs would have betting non-stop on those tables. You put your name on a list and winner stays on as long as they can keep winning. Even the girls got into this phenomena.

Buffalo billiards in "Downtown" Washington, DC is one of the top date destinations. There are so many yuppies and rich people eager to get in there and party. Place is a "BIG" cash cow and has been for many years. They are missing the dance floor and have a huge bar crowd especially on game days!

So, basically if your pool room is not a destination for a big "DATE" then you are doing something wrong. People should be talking about your pool hall/ club and associating it with beautiful women and fun times. The places around here would artificially create buzz by having long lines to get in and people would pass by and see the lines to get in and have to investigate!

KD
 
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trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The area of pool that is showing the most growth is apa and tap leagues which are handy cap leagues. People don't want to put the time into get good at something anymore. You can play a video game and get good at it rather fast then the time it takes to become great at pool or golf.
 

Bella Don't Cry

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bdorman-

Thanks for letting me know this was already posted. I just did a search and cannot find the previous comments, any suggestions?

BTW - I think there are more similarities to golf and pool.
Golf did overbuild - but did pool.
Golf is expensive - yet pool is very affordable most of the time.
Both are too hard to master.

The idea of 15' golf cups is intriguing. What would be a big pocket in pool (maybe 5.5 inches)?

Markg


Just a quick analysis...
Golf did overbuild - but did pool. - Pool didn't, however it did built in the wrong areas / key locations
Golf is expensive - yet pool is very affordable most of the time. True in most cases
Both are too hard to master. Yes they are and so are all games / sports. Bruce Lee, Tiger Woods, Pele, Efren Reyes - the list of 'Masters' is a short one.

The idea of 15' golf cups is intriguing. What would be a big pocket in pool (maybe 5.5 inches)?
The game of pool is not broken, it DOES NOT need fixing in which to be sold to a younger generations. All games / sports / ideas need a USP (Unique Selling Point) - Pool already has this and has done for years. It's called THE GOLDEN BREAK. :thumbup:

Mark - just sent you a PM.
 

Bbutler

topshots.ca
Silver Member
The drinking age effects pool more than people realize. In order for so done to become a great player he or she needs to start at a young age. If they can't get into a poolroom because of drinking restrictions (or simply because the owner caters to an older clientele) then they'll go find some other sport -- or even worse...school.
 

kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bdorman-

Thanks for letting me know this was already posted. I just did a search and cannot find the previous comments, any suggestions?

BTW - I think there are more similarities to golf and pool.
Golf did overbuild - but did pool.
Golf is expensive - yet pool is very affordable most of the time.
Both are too hard to master.

The idea of 15' golf cups is intriguing. What would be a big pocket in pool (maybe 5.5 inches)?

Markg

Mark, I remember reading something about this on the board (maybe more than a month ago, but within the last year). I am not very good with the search options, but the topic is interesting and worth some talk, especially from and with industry leaders like you.

You mentioned big pockets. On that topic, I have to credit lfigueroa for the following idea, but I agree fully: The down side to tables like Diamonds (while they are first rate in quality) is that the difficulty of the table forces even the best players to, many times, play conservatively and not "let their stroke out."

How many clips are there of Corey's shot in the U.S. Open? A ton. The stroke shots capture the imagination of everyone. Corey's shot was on a Diamond, but the score was lopsided in the match. If that match is hill-hill, I don't think he shoots it. If the table has 5 in. pockets, he might have to shoot it, because if Mika gets back to the table, Mika might get out. Bigger pockets give incentives to big strokes. Chicks dig big strokes :thumbup:

I don't think big pockets will save pool, but I don't think making them bigger so Corey can go nuts bending his cue ball will hurt it either.

Just my 0.02

kollegedave
 

Nostroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the most successful pool organizations ever- that was having trouble only about 8 years ago or so decided to make the pockets tighter and im pretty sure changed to slower cloth also, the opposite strategy golf is starting to employ. So right there we see evidence of a very big difference between the pool and golf world.



Golf is going through the same cycle we see all over. It got big, lots of money was being made by every area of the industry. Everyone jumped in for the easy money thinking golf would grow forever, it didnt and suddenly there was too much of everything. Prices cut, less profits and everyone is bailing, Same as housing industry, Firby's, Bagels and many many more. Im guessing we are in a Yoga bubble now.

Anyway pool and golf are both suffering but the causes are very different.

Maybe Pool right now is best marketed to golfers. They are quitting golf and pool seems the perfect cheaper, less time using, easier game to play. By easier to play i mean-just walk into the pool room. You dont need to wear special shoes, hats, buy balls etc-Sticks, chalk and balls come with the table. Just get up and play>

As an added benefit, when you learn a little and get to know what's going on, you have a 'clubhouse' in almost and decently populated area you find yourself in.

The sun kills! Play pool and screw golf!! :)
 

kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool went through this same boom and bust after TCOM. There were all kinds of nice high end rooms that ended up going bust when the next big thing came along or people just got bored with pool. Look at what happened with pool and cues in Japan to see the same thing.

Golf is just doing it on a much larger scale and the guys like the Taylor Made guy are freaking out that the gravy train is coming to an end.

Pool has already changed a great deal to stay alive in this country. It has went from a big table game in pool rooms to a small table game in bars. In the process the mindset of the players has changed a great deal. See the whole mentality of handicaps, sandbagging and so on.

The coolest thing I saw in that video was the golf nightclub. The only problem is I bet very few of the people there buy gear and go out to a traditional golf course to play a three or four hour round. So while something like that does introduce people to the game (sort of) it probably doesnt have much if any meaningful impact on getting people to actually play the game itself outside of that unique venue of the night club.

I think the best way to grow pool in the US would be to put tables/leagues/industry support in every college possible. Why college and not younger? There is nowhere for people under 18/21 to play anyway. If you get kids in college they are old enough to find a place to play and pool is cheap enough to actually participate in. I would also not have them play for any prize money. Simply for titles and trophies like most other sports.

It would require a level of financial commitment and organization thats non existent in the game today to do it right. Even then it could amount to nothing so I don't see it happening.

I started playing pool seriously when I was 16ish. I am 35. Since then not a single player has started playing in my pool hall and achieved a skill level equal to mine (not very high). O.k., maybe one.

The point is; like you mentioned, without young people, the game must die. At some point, there will be no one left.

If I start thinking about this, I get very fatalistic. However, the truth is what it is. There has not really been a new serious player in my pool hall in 20 years. I figure the same thing must be going on all over the country.

kollegedave
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Bdorman-

Thanks for letting me know this was already posted. I just did a search and cannot find the previous comments, any suggestions?

BTW - I think there are more similarities to golf and pool.
Golf did overbuild - but did pool.
Golf is expensive - yet pool is very affordable most of the time.
Both are too hard to master.

The idea of 15' golf cups is intriguing. What would be a big pocket in pool (maybe 5.5 inches)?

Markg

Very few leisure activities maintain a super high participation factor year on year. We already know that trends are sparked by publicity. For pool it was the Hustler and the Color of Money, for golf it was 24 year old black Tiger Woods getting a 20 million dollar contract from Nike despsite never having competed in a pro tournament.

When the publicity fades the interest wanes. Pool "overbuilt" in the 90s when pool rooms were springing up on every corner. But that's not really overbuilding either it's simply responding to demand. Then when demand shrinks, either through boredom of the masses or through a real shrinkage in disposable income OR through competition from other activities then there are a lot of closed courses and closed pool rooms.

Pool simply hasn't done anything to grow the interest in the game. It's that simple.

If I owned a pool room I would put a pool table in the local mall and give away free hours as my house pros introduced hundreds of people a day to the great game we all love.

If I was a league owner I would take .25cts or even a dollar from every league member's dues and fund a pro tour that would be on television two times a month. I would send my contracted professionals out to barnstorm the country.

Brunswick promoted pool as a family activity in the 40s, 50s, 60s in their advertising. They are the ones responsible for branding pool as pocket billiards.

The Billiard Congress of America and just about every league and room owner in the United States is responsible for the fact that pool is not bigger than it is.

Why?

Well a couple reasons but the biggest one is quite simply that they rode the wave until it was gone with no real plan to generate more interest. Pool is one of the most economical activities to do. It is also one of the easiest, show up in your work clothes and play and have fun.

So why don't more people play?

Because we haven't asked them to. That's the bottom line. We haven't been out there on the ground at malls and fairs and wherever people gather to show them what a great indoor sport this is.

Regarding big pockets. A lot of very successful rooms have a lot of their tables done with big easy pockets for the very reason that making balls makes people happy and happy people stay longer and spend more.
 

BobTfromIL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My first thought was this would be a very interesting topic for a CSI podcast.
Maybe a panel of four or five people who are in the business as either a player, product producer or event person.
 

Banks

Banned
My first thought was this would be a very interesting topic for a CSI podcast.
Maybe a panel of four or five people who are in the business as either a player, product producer or event person.

If all goes according to plan, I'll be trying my idea out in the Portland area next year. With any luck, CSI/BCA will sanction it with the blessings of a few other industry businesses. But, that's not for a little bit, so I'll just have to wait and see how everything pans out, as I said, months from now. I think I've come up with a win-win-win situation, good for both lower and higher rated players.
 

Scaramouche

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Proper instruction will help the neophyte learn.
Pool has 'secrets'.

Both golfers and pool players have obsessions with equipment over learning technique - not the way to improve and actually hit the ball into the opening.

No one thinks that a top figure skater or skier can be produced without spending the hours perfecting technique.
And they do not do it on their own.

Of course, major sports have governing organizations.
Pool rules vary, decreed by the individual drunks in bars.
 
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