Pool suggestions you should avoid.

[seymore15074]

You know this and so does everyone else. There are no absolutes. There are times when the bank shot is the right shot, but the reasons are a combination of factors. And the reason usually revolves around the cueball, not the object ball.

Fred

Are you guys playing 8-ball? Maybe this is the problem... I'm thinking of any single shot as in 9-ball... 1 shot, 2 options cut or bank. You ALWAYS cut it if it can be cut rather than banking it. I don't know what is so hard to figure out about this, and I think that you have to be in agreement, but why not argue this point anyway.... Banks suck, cuts are good; that's it. If you disagree, you are wrong. Someday, I hope, you will come to terms with this principle.

Now, if you are suggesting in 8-ball you might opt to bank an easy bank over an extremely hard cut, well, you may...but those are 2 different shots, that's not what I mean...is this what you are saying??

 

[seymore15074]

There aren't many players that don't at some point adjust their english while down, never getting back up again.

This is just asking for a miss. You should never adjust anything down on the shot. Once again, I'm sure a million people will argue...blah.

TO BE AVOIDED CONTINUED (2):

13. Adjust sometime while down on a shot.

 

[ShootingArts]

OK, let's shoot the nine ball

Are you guys playing 8-ball? Maybe this is the problem... I'm thinking of any single shot as in 9-ball... 1 shot, 2 options cut or bank. You ALWAYS cut it if it can be cut rather than banking it. I don't know what is so hard to figure out about this, and I think that you have to be in agreement, but why not argue this point anyway.... Banks suck, cuts are good; that's it. If you disagree, you are wrong. Someday, I hope, you will come to terms with this principle.

Now, if you are suggesting in 8-ball you might opt to bank an easy bank over an extremely hard cut, well, you may...but those are 2 different shots, that's not what I mean...is this what you are saying??

Remember that absolutes are what are being debated here, an almost impossible position to defend. We need one example where you are wrong, you need to prove you are right in every example.

Here is a scenario near the foot rail: The nine ball was just missed by the other player but he did touch it in his effort to make an almost 90º cut and has now left me the same problem to deal with. My cueball is closer to the end rail than the nine and the nine is maybe a half inch or a bit more off of the side rail. In theory the nine could be cut. What this will require is a super thin cut fired at maximum speed since there will be almost no energy transferred to the nine. We will call this plan "A"

Or I can go with plan "B". Balls are positioned exactly as mentioned earlier. Now I choose a cross bank. The cue ball will naturally clear the nine ball's path since it starts from inside the angle of the bank but I use a little outside and a touch of high on the cue ball because that is how I have made the shot thousands of times before. I have excellent energy transfer now so a gentle shot is all that is needed. My aim can be dead on or hit the end rail before reaching the pocket and use the acquired english and pocket speed to help it in.

Is there anyone on this board who seriously wants me to set up this shot to my maximum advantage and the two of us alternate attempts, them trying to cut, me to bank, ten bucks a shot and no scratch allowed?

I'll take this one as soon as I can play again and run with it till the ATM runs dry for one of us. I can almost make the bank in my sleep and the cut requires great concentration and a little luck every shot. A few hours of this and whoever takes the challenge will have had enough fun even if they have hung with me dollarwise, which is highly unlikely.

Hu

 

[VIProfessor]

Are you guys playing 8-ball? Maybe this is the problem... I'm thinking of any single shot as in 9-ball... 1 shot, 2 options cut or bank. You ALWAYS cut it if it can be cut rather than banking it. I don't know what is so hard to figure out about this, and I think that you have to be in agreement, but why not argue this point anyway.... Banks suck, cuts are good; that's it. If you disagree, you are wrong. Someday, I hope, you will come to terms with this principle.

Now, if you are suggesting in 8-ball you might opt to bank an easy bank over an extremely hard cut, well, you may...but those are 2 different shots, that's not what I mean...is this what you are saying??

I gotta say, Seymore, that pool, like life, is situational. Making the ball, as you know, is not the only consideration. Often positional considerations or calcuations as to what will happen if you miss will determine the right shot. If you've got a 50% chance to make a bank and a 60% chance to make the cut, but you'll sell out 90% of the time if you miss the cut and only 50% if you miss the bank, which one are you going to take? If you choose the cut, maybe you and I can get together and play sometime!

Further, the skill set of the player plays a large role in shot selection, beginning players, as well as older players who just don't see the edges of the ball as well anymore, will often have a higher pocketing percentage on certain banks as opposed to the cut shot? Are we to tell them to play shots that they know they can't make?

The bottom line, as Bob Jewett said, is that yes, all other things being equal, a cut shot is usually easier to pocket than a bank shot, but bank shots are still a necessary part of the game!

 

[Cornerman]

If you disagree, you are wrong. Someday, I hope, you will come to terms with this principle.

Wonderful. Thanks for playing. I didn't realize that I was discussing something useful with a 3rd grader. If I can come up with one shot that any sane pool player would bank rather than cut, even though it's cuttable, will you admit you're mistaken? Or will you backpedal? I want to make sure I know before I bother.

Fred

 

[seymore15074]

I gotta say, Seymore, that pool, like life, is situational. Making the ball, as you know, is not the only consideration. Often positional considerations or calcuations as to what will happen if you miss will determine the right shot. If you've got a 50% chance to make a bank and a 60% chance to make the cut, but you'll sell out 90% of the time if you miss the cut and only 50% if you miss the bank, which one are you going to take? If you choose the cut, maybe you and I can get together and play sometime!

I do not take what I'm leaving if I miss into account (playing 9-ball). If I miss, my opponent will not. - I will NEVER take this into account. You can only get burned with that mindset. It's like playing the ghost, that is the ONLY way to win playing 9-ball. Based on playing the ghost, I would take my better chance to win...the cut (considering the 60%/50% from above).

Now, to the long thin cut on the bottom rail argument, my answer is simple...if I can make it, I'm cutting it. It's that simple...I recognize a shot that I can't make if it's too thin to roll that far, etc...I know what I can cut, just like I'm sure you know what you can cut. From the sounds of it, I'd probably bank that ball. That would be an example of when you HAVE to bank, because you can't cut it. Let's argue all day about this so I can repeat what I've been saying again and again while everybody and their mothers jump out of the cracks in the wall and propose the same long thin cut scenario...it's always the same argument. I've played this game, and I know what I'm doing. Maybe you've played this game, and you know what you're doing. Maybe our games are different. Regardless, I'd cut it if I can. Live with it. Eagle eyes, protractor, I hear it all of the time...it's nothing new, I can cut balls most people would never even try. That's what I do...that's what I practice...that's how I play. Oh, and I can bank, too. Lucky me!

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Ok, this is my final argument supporting the fact that "you should bank this" is bad advice:

You set up a dead bank and I'll set up what I consider to be a dead cut (straight in off of the spot). We'll shoot them until one of us misses...

Pros bank for position. If the bank doesn't offer them position on the next shot, usually they avoid it. If it's an easy cross side bank on a money ball, they will go for it. Countless times I've seen pros take on a bank shot instead of a difficult cut. But they usually play it with an element of safety, trying to get either ball safe in case they miss.

 

[JoeyA]

Play nice Boys.

Wonderful. Thanks for playing. I didn't realize that I was discussing something useful with a 3rd grader. If I can come up with one shot that any sane pool player would bank rather than cut, even though it's cuttable, will you admit you're mistaken? Or will you backpedal? I want to make sure I know before I bother.

Fred

Play nice, boys.
JoeyA

 

[supergreenman]

Breaking news from Seymore.......

The world is flat!!!! don't try and argue this point, he's always right.

 

[DoomCue]

Are you guys playing 8-ball? Maybe this is the problem... I'm thinking of any single shot as in 9-ball... 1 shot, 2 options cut or bank. You ALWAYS cut it if it can be cut rather than banking it. I don't know what is so hard to figure out about this, and I think that you have to be in agreement, but why not argue this point anyway.... Banks suck, cuts are good; that's it. If you disagree, you are wrong. Someday, I hope, you will come to terms with this principle.

Now, if you are suggesting in 8-ball you might opt to bank an easy bank over an extremely hard cut, well, you may...but those are 2 different shots, that's not what I mean...is this what you are saying??

I disagree, and I'm not wrong. I hope you can come to terms with that.

-djb <-- where is percentage play in seymore15074's world?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Here is a scenario near the foot rail: The nine ball was just missed by the other player but he did touch it in his effort to make an almost 90º cut and has now left me the same problem to deal with. My cueball is closer to the end rail than the nine and the nine is maybe a half inch or a bit more off of the side rail. In theory the nine could be cut. ...

Or just move the nine ball up the side rail a little so it is a straight bank cross-side. It is also possible to cut the nine to the far corner. I'll bank it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm willing to take the alternating shot challenge.

I will agree with the OP though that some players will try the bank when it's not the easier shot. Beginners tend to think that 60-degree cuts are impossible.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I do not take what I'm leaving if I miss into account (playing 9-ball). If I miss, my opponent will not. - I will NEVER take this into account. You can only get burned with that mindset. It's like playing the ghost, that is the ONLY way to win playing 9-ball. Based on playing the ghost, I would take my better chance to win...the cut (considering the 60%/50% from above).

Now, to the long thin cut on the bottom rail argument, my answer is simple...if I can make it, I'm cutting it. It's that simple...I recognize a shot that I can't make if it's too thin to roll that far, etc...I know what I can cut, just like I'm sure you know what you can cut. From the sounds of it, I'd probably bank that ball. That would be an example of when you HAVE to bank, because you can't cut it. Let's argue all day about this so I can repeat what I've been saying again and again while everybody and their mothers jump out of the cracks in the wall and propose the same long thin cut scenario...it's always the same argument. I've played this game, and I know what I'm doing. Maybe you've played this game, and you know what you're doing. Maybe our games are different. Regardless, I'd cut it if I can. Live with it. Eagle eyes, protractor, I hear it all of the time...it's nothing new, I can cut balls most people would never even try. That's what I do...that's what I practice...that's how I play. Oh, and I can bank, too. Lucky me!

There are many bangers who will opt to bank an other wise easy cut, which in this case you are right you should cut it. However there are many scenarios where banking is the correct shot.

Why would I take a very thin cut into the side pocket using outside english to go around three rails into position, when I could just bank the ball and play a stop shot. The bank in this scenario is much easier and would have a larger pocket to go into. In other words the bank is the higher percentage shot.

You need to open up your game to other possibilities or else you will end up stagnating somewhere down the line. We can all cut balls, so it is not as though we are a bunch of bangers who don't know how to play.

 

[Cornerman]

.

Why would I take a very thin cut into the side pocket using outside english to go around three rails into position, when I could just bank the ball and play a stop shot. The bank in this scenario is much easier and would have a larger pocket to go into. In other words the bank is the higher percentage shot.

You need to open up your game to other possibilities or else you will end up stagnating somewhere down the line. We can all cut balls, so it is not as though we are a bunch of bangers who don't know how to play.

Similar, two pages worth.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2Aagj2Barr2CUtB3IAMI2PAKm@2ATEA2Barr2CUtB3IAMI2PAKm@

Who doesn't bank the first one?

What about the second page?

Fred <~~~ would bank both

 

[Scott Lee]

I have been a b player now for some time so i thought i would take some lessons from a good instructor from Detroit. This particuliar instructor is a very strong player and he always drops his elbow to allow a big follow through. He told me that in order to achieve maximum performance on draw and follow shots dropping the elbow helps achieve this. He also teaches his students to do the same. Tell me what you think about this technique.

IMO, it's complete baloney. There is often a big difference between a 'good player' and a good instructor. Just because someone is a 'strong' player doesn't mean they know how to communicate or teach. Dropping the elbow is not required to "achieve maximum performance on draw and follow shots".
He is doing a disservice to his 'students', imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[JoeyInCali]

Dropping the elbow is not required to "achieve maximum performance on draw and follow shots".
He is doing a disservice to his 'students', imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I agree.
In fact, I think it's counter-productive.
You cannot drop the elbow fast enough to catch the cue's momentum. YOu will only slow it down.
A relaxed wrist and a soft hold on the cue in a pendullum motion will let the cue apply all the force needed to make a cueball spin forward or backwards.
Not that you didn't know that.

 

[VIProfessor]

I do not take what I'm leaving if I miss into account (playing 9-ball). If I miss, my opponent will not. - I will NEVER take this into account. You can only get burned with that mindset. It's like playing the ghost, that is the ONLY way to win playing 9-ball. Based on playing the ghost, I would take my better chance to win...the cut (considering the 60%/50% from above).

Now, to the long thin cut on the bottom rail argument, my answer is simple...if I can make it, I'm cutting it. It's that simple...I recognize a shot that I can't make if it's too thin to roll that far, etc...I know what I can cut, just like I'm sure you know what you can cut. From the sounds of it, I'd probably bank that ball. That would be an example of when you HAVE to bank, because you can't cut it. Let's argue all day about this so I can repeat what I've been saying again and again while everybody and their mothers jump out of the cracks in the wall and propose the same long thin cut scenario...it's always the same argument. I've played this game, and I know what I'm doing. Maybe you've played this game, and you know what you're doing. Maybe our games are different. Regardless, I'd cut it if I can. Live with it. Eagle eyes, protractor, I hear it all of the time...it's nothing new, I can cut balls most people would never even try. That's what I do...that's what I practice...that's how I play. Oh, and I can bank, too. Lucky me!

Dear Seymore,

I've often wondered if posts like these are the cyberspace equivalent of stalling. If so, you got me! I would like to extend an invitation to St. Thomas so that we can play some and so you can beat me all night with this incredible shotmaking without regard to percentages or two-way shots. I only ask that you give me a few days notification before your arrival so that I can take a second mortgage on the house, if necessary, to make financial preparations for our contest.

Thank you for your expeditious attention to this invitation, and my backers and I EAGERLY await your arrival on our humble island.

Sincerely,

VIProfessor

 

[supergreenman]

Similar, two pages worth.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2Aagj2Barr2CUtB3IAMI2PAKm@2ATEA2Barr2CUtB3IAMI2PAKm@

Who doesn't bank the first one?

What about the second page?

Fred <~~~ would bank both

</font sarcastic>Why bank it when I can cut it up the rail possibly hitting the horn going past the side pocket, and possibly scratching the CB twice depending on the english.</end font>

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2Aagj2Barr2...bWC1kbGB2kYaI2kYaI@2ATEA2Barr2CUtB3IAMI2PAKm@

I'd be banking before you can spell bank.

 

[JoeyA]

IMO, it's complete baloney. There is often a big difference between a 'good player' and a good instructor. Just because someone is a 'strong' player doesn't mean they know how to communicate or teach. Dropping the elbow is not required to "achieve maximum performance on draw and follow shots".
He is doing a disservice to his 'students', imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

While I don't know what the dropping of this strong player's elbow does, it apparently is something that he believes is important to his game. It might be important to someone else's game for reasons only God knows at this point. My advice to teambizy is the try it both ways and see if it works for you. Who knows? It might work for you too. If you don't peceive a noticeable improvement when you drop your elbow on draw and follow shots, quit dropping your elbow as it is another piece of the machinery that you have to consider when things aren't going well.
JoeyA

 

[3kushn]

Don't go fishing when the cows are laying down in the pasture...

Doug
( and, watch where you step )

( the same applies in Pool.... imo )

Most of my best fishing trips have been before and during a rain storm.

 

[3kushn]

This may be true, but when do they drop their elbows? Before or after the tip hits the cue ball? As Scott pointed out, the timing if this is very, very important.

Mr. Lee also said that it is possible to play at a high level and still drop the elbow. It's still a flaw if it happens before contact and if these pros can correct it they may reach a new level.