power draw stroke

PKM

PKM

OB-1 Kenobi
Silver Member
What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.

CueTable Help

 
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PKM said:
What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.

CueTable Help

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I think it's a very practical shot and should be a very high percentage shot for a competitive player.

I would never jack up. You don't get more draw jacking up.

Colin
 
You do not need to be jacked up at all. Assuming a good stroke, the two major factors are how low you strike the c/b and cloth conditions. At max tip offset and relatively new cloth I'd say no more than medium power. If conditions are sticky, dirty balls, old cloth etc, then more power is needed, adjust accordingly.

Rod
 
In my opinion the only draw shot that you should EVER jack up for is if you are on the rail and have to jack up. You should always keep your cue as level as possible.
 
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Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?
 
PKM said:
Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?
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The science guys will have to tell you whether you can lessen the friction by any appreciable amount, but most people will agree that it's a bad idea.

By jacking up, you'll sacrifice accuracy. Plus, your stroke and follow through are restricted. In the end, it's far easier to make that shot with a level cue than by jacking up.
 
PKM said:
Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?
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The cue ball is going to be in the air anyway even with what is called a level stroke. It really isn't level the butt of the cue is elevated to some degree. Not that it will fly all the way there but maybe the first three feet as a guess.

The shot does not need to be hit so hard that you would want to fly it all the way. It has its benefits but I would say this is not one of the shots it is needed. When the c/b bounces it takes off a lot of spin so sometimes its a trade off if you will.

Rod
 
PKM said:
Some people do teach to jack up slightly for draw (Jimmy Reid for example), but I do try to keep as level as possible. However, for a long shot couldn't the rationale be to hop the CB slightly so that the spin doesn't wear off?
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As others have said, hopping is a tradeoff in terms of retaining maximum spin all the way to the OB and, more importantly, it plays hell with accuracy - something you need a lot of for this shot.

Jacking up can be useful for close shots, especially where you want to maximize CB movement and minimize OB movement. But that's a rare need.

pj
chgo
 
PKM said:
... I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.
...
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I think that as you get better, you will find that it is a practical shot. There are times when you will have to play such shots, or shots that are similar but shorter, and you need to be ready for them. See the Progressive Practice shots starting on Page 6 of http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf

An "A" player should be able to do the level 4 draw shot (diagram 4C) all the way to position 6 half the time.

As others have mentioned, try a level stroke, but not so level you smash your knuckles.
 
that shot is not a hard as you think, I've personally found that power draws are easier for me using a level cue, shorter than my normal bridge length and a shorter more compact stroke. Draw the cue stick back slowly and accelerate through the cueball.
 
PKM said:
What kind of stroke does it take to make this straight-in shot and draw all the way back? Can it be done with a relatively level stroke (I'm sure people can do it of course, but practically speaking) or would you likely need to be jacked up slightly more than is necessary to stroke the ball? What kind of power is necessary?

I know it's not a practical shot by any means, I was just wondering as a test of cueing. It's beyond my ability right now.
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If you are having trouble getting this shot right, then your need to work on your stroke.

Try this: Take a draw shot that you are able to execute comfortably, and practice making it while -

(1) trying to hit the balls more and more softly, still drawing back the same distance and
(2) trying to slow down your final cue delivery more and more, still drawing back the same distance.

This is the sort of exercise that I do occasionally when I am not timing the ball well, and it usually helps.:)

Oh - and like the man says, don't jack up!
 
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cookie man said:
accuracy - something you need a lot of for this shot.
Not with CTE, you already have it!
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You would aim CTE for a straight-in shot?
 
In Bob Jewett's Progressive drills the OB is placed in the jaws and the CB as many diamonds away from the OB as you can. Pot the OB and draw back to the CB starting position. To "know" that you can make it as needed I think that you need to make it on three of four attempts (75% success rate)

I think a "B" player can make it from 5 diamonds with little difficulty. A "Short stop" can make it from 7 diamonds. I have not seen anyone who is able to consistently draw it back from 8 diamonds but I would bet that someone can. To draw the length of the table from corner to corner would be extremely difficult but I?ll bet some one can do that too.

Many people tell me that it is not necessary to jack up for this shot. However, all three people that I have personally observed make this shot from 7 diamonds are jacked up on the shot. That is to say the back of the cue stick is higher than the front of the cue stick anywhere from four to six inches.

There is what people say and then there is what they do.

When I told one player that he was jacked up he said that it was the only way he could do it with what he called a "pure" stroke. He had taught himself how to make the shot.

I do not know any professional players so I have not seen how they make this very difficult shot.

So from how many diamonds away can you make this shot and do you jack up? It would be interesting to hear what people actually do, not what they think one should do.

I have found that if I jack up, "a little" I can, on occassion, get it to return to the 6th diamond.
 
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JoeW,

I'm not completely sure I know which shot you're talking about, and I certainly believe that you saw those shooters make the shot with their cue elevated. I wonder if there are other factors involved though...

Seven diamonds away from the jaws straight down the side rail would put the cue ball one diamond from the end rail. In order to hit the bottommost portion of the cue ball from there, it seems like one of the shots where the table forces the shooter to jack their cue up a little bit. Could this be what happened to the shooters you observed?

Also, do you remember whether the shooters used a hand or rail bridge? For a lot of people, a rail bridge would allow the shooter to keep the cue closer to level, but a full diamond is a pretty long bridge length for a shot where you need to be so precise on where the cue strikes the cue ball. I know some shooters who would rather have their hand on the table as often as possible- particularly on shots where they're cueing off center and with a lot of force. Is it possible that the shooters were using a hand bridge that caused them to elevate the butt of their cue in order to strike the desired spot?

Just my curiosity speaking....
 
PKM said:
You would aim CTE for a straight-in shot?
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Yes...but first you have to understand what the CTE system is...and there is massive misinformation on that topic on the forum.

Back to the point, the shot you outlined is a standard "in stroke" drill for me.

It requires a firm but not massive stroke pace to draw back to the head rail and generally, the more power the shooter uses, the more likely stroke errors will raise their ugly heads.

I alternate between stop shots, medium draw and power draw strokes.

On the stop shot, I try for DEAD STOP...no reverse and no SPIN. The no spin part is NOT easy. I get zero forward/backward movement..oh..9 of 10 tries but am happy to get zero spin on 4 tries.

On the draw strokes I am also looking for straight reverse spin. Pulling it back with NO side spin is a thing of beauty and confirms that you have struck the CB right on the vertical centerline.

Bob Jewett's progressive drills are THE NUTS.

I don't recall if he suggests it but IMHO it is best to shoot the shorter draw distances over and over until you OWN them before going to the next distance...rather than shoot just a couple of the shortest and a couple of the next length etc.

Once you own them all, then alternate between them.

Regards,
Jim
 
The fellow in Iowa Player?s video is jacked up if you look closely. BTW he is only 5 diamonds from the CB. The more distance between CB and OB the more difficult it is to maintain draw.

Tom Rossman?s cues stick is not ?level? in the short draw shot he is demonstrating.

From 6 diamonds to the CB one can keep the cue stick somewhat level but I have not seen anyone do it.

From 7 diamonds it is necessary to jack the cue stick because there is not sufficient room between the rail and the CB to keep it level.

From 8 diamonds the shot is an above center draw as there is no room to hit center on the CB

A length of table corner to corner shot also must be jacked up. However it is possible to set up a 6.5 diamond corner to corner shot that would not require the player to jack up the cue stick any more than usual.

It seems to me that unless one can get the whole cue stick inside the rail nearly all draw shots are jacked up a little. I conclude that when we are told to keep the cue stick level the direction is to keep the cue stick as level as is reasonably possible and it is very seldom that one can keep it level.

When the stick is intentionally jacked up there is more draw effect. This simply makes sense because one is coming in at an angle that is conducive to placing more back spin on the OB. That is when an anglular approach is used it is possible that the CB is slightly trapped against the cloth allowing more back spin to be imparted.

While I have not done it, I would think that in a situation where the cue stick could be level one could determine if there is more draw with and without jacking up the cue stick. My bet would be that jacking up produces more back spin though hitting exact center would be more crucial.


BTW, as I remember, the people with ability to place the most draw on a cue ball from the longest distance between the CB and OB were not only jacked up but were hitting only a cue tip or a littel less below center. I have been told this allows for the most power in a power draw. When I attempt these types of draw shots it does seem that there is more power in a power draw with slightly below center jacked up shot an stroked like a normal draw shot would be stroked.

It seems to me that when the physics is discussed the angle of approach is not considered in a power draw. energy transfer would be diffeent at different angles of approach and would allow for imparting more transfer. But that is not my area so I will leave it alone.
 
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