Pro Level

12310bch said:
Congratulations on reaching levels I'll never reach because of my age.(Or lack of skill) You have every right to be proud of your achievements. Now shut the fukc up. Play your game and win quietly when you can win and lose graciously when you do lose. Because you will. And if you ever play and beat me and start with your arrogant look how good I am bullship you will no longer need a case for your stick because it will be up your azz , big end first.
Now I know I'm going to get hell for saying that but I can't tolerate this name dropping punk comparing himself to the Pros. He doesn't have a clue.:mad:
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wow tell him what you really think next time lol.
 
Oh... I just saw that you said 100 should be pro speed. NO

A long time ago, 125 would be considered pro speed, and that isn't the case now. I haven't played usppa in a long time, but something changed and the averages went up. Now I would consider someone with a 135-140 average or higher to be able to compete.
 
I see. Its been a long time since i played in the USPPA but i remember one person telling that a person rated 100 was considered a pro. So that statement was purely upon what i heard from someone else.
 
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12310bch said:
Congratulations on reaching levels I'll never reach because of my age.(Or lack of skill) You have every right to be proud of your achievements. Now shut the fukc up. Play your game and win quietly when you can win and lose graciously when you do lose. Because you will. And if you ever play and beat me and start with your arrogant look how good I am bullship you will no longer need a case for your stick because it will be up your azz , big end first.
Now I know I'm going to get hell for saying that but I can't tolerate this name dropping punk comparing himself to the Pros. He doesn't have a clue.:mad:
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WOW!!! Really :lol:
 
How do you do in the quantifiable "self-tests"?

Do you beat the 10 ball ghost consistently in races to 9 on a "non-bucket" 9 footer? Some pros beat the 12 ball ghost! :eek:

How @ Fargo? Here's the rules and caliber ratings:

1. Rack fifteen balls on the Foot Spot, in any order, and place the cue ball ON the Head Spot. Break the balls. If you miscue or miss the cue ball completely, it is a foul. Re-Rack, break again and subtract one from your score. If you miscue and contact the rack, you may choose to continue shooting, leaving the balls where they lie and not take a foul.

2. If you scratch on the break, it is a minus 1, unless the cue ball goes off the table, then it is a minus 2. After a scratch on the break, you may place the cue ball on either the Head Spot of Foot Spot and shoot any ball on the table, or place the cue ball anywhere behind the Head String and shoot any ball above the Head String. On the break, if you scratch or the cue ball goes off the table, all balls made on the break stay down but do not count as points. If you do not scratch on the break, then all balls made on the break count as one point each.

3. After the break, if you do not have a shot or do not like the shot you have, you may choose one of three options. (a) Place the cue ball anywhere behind the Head String and shoot any ball above the Head String. (b) Place the cue ball on either the Head Spot or the Foot Spot and shoot any ball.
(c) Place the rack over the cue ball (where it lies) and move the cue ball anywhere inside the rack and shoot any ball. All of the options noted above are a penalty and incur a minus 1.

4. After the break, whether you made a ball or not, proceed to shoot, calling each shot. Try to run the table, shoting the ball in any order UNTIL THERE ARE FIVE BALLS REMAINING. If you do pocket ten balls, then the last five balls must be shot IN ROTATION (in numerical order starting with the lowest number ball). If you MISS A SHOT, the rack is OVER. There are no second chances or mulligans! The first ten balls score 1 point each, and the last five balls score 2 points each. On each rack you can score a MAXIMUM of 20 points.

5. When there are six balls on the table and you pocket two or more balls in one shot, they all stay down and are each worth 1 point. Shoot the remaining balls in rotation, in which each ball is worth 2 points each.

6. Ten racks comprise a session. In one session you can score a maximum of 200 points. The score from FIVE SESSIONS (50 racks) determines your Official Rating. The highest possible Official Rating is a perfect score of 1000 points.

Here is the Rating System:

0-150 - Recreational Player
151-300 - Intermediate Player
301-450 - Advanced Player
451-600- Developing Pro
601-800 - Semi-Pro
801-900 - Pro
901-1000 - Touring Pro
 
KoolKat9Lives said:
How do you do in the quantifiable "self-tests"?

Do you beat the 10 ball ghost consistently in races to 9 on a "non-bucket" 9 footer? Some pros beat the 12 ball ghost! :eek:

How @ Fargo? Here's the rules and caliber ratings:

1. Rack fifteen balls on the Foot Spot, in any order, and place the cue ball ON the Head Spot. Break the balls. If you miscue or miss the cue ball completely, it is a foul. Re-Rack, break again and subtract one from your score. If you miscue and contact the rack, you may choose to continue shooting, leaving the balls where they lie and not take a foul.

2. If you scratch on the break, it is a minus 1, unless the cue ball goes off the table, then it is a minus 2. After a scratch on the break, you may place the cue ball on either the Head Spot of Foot Spot and shoot any ball on the table, or place the cue ball anywhere behind the Head String and shoot any ball above the Head String. On the break, if you scratch or the cue ball goes off the table, all balls made on the break stay down but do not count as points. If you do not scratch on the break, then all balls made on the break count as one point each.

3. After the break, if you do not have a shot or do not like the shot you have, you may choose one of three options. (a) Place the cue ball anywhere behind the Head String and shoot any ball above the Head String. (b) Place the cue ball on either the Head Spot or the Foot Spot and shoot any ball.
(c) Place the rack over the cue ball (where it lies) and move the cue ball anywhere inside the rack and shoot any ball. All of the options noted above are a penalty and incur a minus 1.

4. After the break, whether you made a ball or not, proceed to shoot, calling each shot. Try to run the table, shoting the ball in any order UNTIL THERE ARE FIVE BALLS REMAINING. If you do pocket ten balls, then the last five balls must be shot IN ROTATION (in numerical order starting with the lowest number ball). If you MISS A SHOT, the rack is OVER. There are no second chances or mulligans! The first ten balls score 1 point each, and the last five balls score 2 points each. On each rack you can score a MAXIMUM of 20 points.

5. When there are six balls on the table and you pocket two or more balls in one shot, they all stay down and are each worth 1 point. Shoot the remaining balls in rotation, in which each ball is worth 2 points each.

6. Ten racks comprise a session. In one session you can score a maximum of 200 points. The score from FIVE SESSIONS (50 racks) determines your Official Rating. The highest possible Official Rating is a perfect score of 1000 points.

Here is the Rating System:

0-150 - Recreational Player
151-300 - Intermediate Player
301-450 - Advanced Player
451-600- Developing Pro
601-800 - Semi-Pro
801-900 - Pro
901-1000 - Touring Pro
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fargo is a great speed test,

and kat i gotta tell ya I love the avatar....every time I see it i hear the song in my head and always laugh...thanks for making my work week fly by brother:grin-square:
 
I'll respond with what I think is a fairly accurate comparison of the relative speeds of the WA/OR/Canadian players you mentioned....

Harry Platis is a decent amateur player. Has won a few matches in tournaments against good pros. Nowhere near consistent enuff to do it more than once every 2-3 years. Plays decent One Pocket, but J.D. was capable of spotting him 9-6 when I was in WA.

Rich Geiler is a good player. At one time was quite a bit better, but not as consistent as top regional players. Would beat Harry to death if they were gambling.

Stan Tourangeau is a great player, who has won many BCA titles, if I remember correctly. Playing 9 ball, Harry would need quite a bit of weight. Has a horrendously strong mental game, but speed control and positional skills are not as strong as good pros. Can beat anyone on any given day, tho. Rich would probably need a decent amount of weight as well.

J.D.... Here is a tough one. J.D. is one of those type players that plays to a "perfect hit". He VERY often gets the perfect hit he requires, but does not play the game the "easy way" that most top pros do. When I was in WA state, J.D. liked to power the ball around the table, and therefore tended to get fuller on balls than most top pros do. This makes his game a little soft on tight pocket tables in 9 ball.

He gets a little shaky when playing top pros, and beats himself. Put him against regional shortstops, and he can be a monster. Because of his slightly weak mental game, he is a notch below Stan in 9 ball, but is a notch above Stan and almost anyone else in the area in One Pocket. Plays great safeties, even from long distance, and this is what allows him to stay with some of the better 9 ballers in the area, and what allows him to excel in One Pocket. Has the smooth talk and easy personality of a veteran road player. he knows what he can give to weaker players, and knows what he needs from stronger players.

Glenn Atwell (I threw him in for completeness..) Top regional player who is capable of winning regional events at any time, but is beatable. Will beat champions on a barbox... But in tournaments and not for the cash. The big table, there are a few levels separating him from the top pros. Perhaps a long time on the barbox has stolen a bit of his "power" game, and that keeps him from being a strong pro. Is definitely in the semi-pro to solid pro level, depending on who you are talking to.

John Horsfall.. If he has been playing a lot, then he is capable of making a deep run in any pro tournament, (and has) and has won the Sands Regency Open twice. Great shotmaking (from a snooker background) and near perfect speed control, from any distance. If his break was stronger, he would have won more tournaments than he has. If he has been playing a lot, he is actually a better player than Stan T.

Dan Louie. Here is a former world champion, who played against the likes of Jersey Red, Cornbread Red, etc... This is a stone cold champion who unfortunately has to deal with Dialysis, and furthermore, is a business man who is more concerned with taking care of his family than playing pool these days.

If Dan wished to win 5-6 regional tournaments in the next year, he'd make it happen. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. He plays upper pro level position, he has perfect speed control, has a great break, and plays better safeties than anyone in the region. If anyone ever dares say he is over the hill, and he decides to prove them wrong, he will leave a wake of devastation through the regional tournaments in the WA/OR area.

In my personal opinion, of all the players you mentioned, I believe an "in form" John Horsfall is the only player who has a chance to beat an "in form" and motivated Dan Louie for a regional event. Dan hasn't won a lot of events lately, because he just doesn't care enough about the game, and has had health problems.

That being said, I rank Stan as a semi-pro, and both John Horsfall and Dan Louie as solid pros, albeit ones who don't have a good chance of cashing high at major tournaments as they now play.

Now, on to your question. You have to take a honest look at yourself within this ranking structure. Can you realistically even "think" of going up and asking J.D. if he wants to gamble some even on a fairly tight table?

How about guys like Raul and Pat Vise? (I'm sure you know these guys) To be even semi pro, you should be spotting guys like Pat the 7, and playing even with Raul.

To be a semi pro, you gotta be robbing all the BCA Master level players in the area. There are quite a few in the Seattle/Tacoma area. Only the BCA Grandmasters should be giving you trouble. I was there for a vacation last year, and playing a few of the Tacoma boys, and while they were as good as they were when I played there years ago, my years of watching pro matches showed me they were not anywhere near pro caliber.

Comparatively, the WA/OR/Canadian corridor is a bit weaker in pool talent, then say, the Central Florida region. We have 6-7 legitimate current pros in the Central Florida region that would cut a wide swath through the players in the region you are speaking of.

This is not meant as a dig, but, it just means that the Cent Fla players have more stiff competition to cut their teeth on.

So, in closing, I would say that you would need to consistently place in the top 12 of the WA/OR regional events to legitimately be considered a "semi-pro".

Anyways, don't stop chsing your dreams..Just wanted you to know there is a big mountain to climb, and you can't stop practicing, because all those other young players certainly aren't.

Short Bus Russ
 
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One other angle on "Pro Level". I don't look a players as "Pros" sine most of them can't earn alot of money on a tour since there isn't much money on the tour.

I rank players as:

World Class Player: Any player who has the ability to beat any other player at anytime in a tournament.

Shortstop: A player who can beat a world class player every now and then. It takes a World Class Player or another Shortstop player to beat him.

Open Player: A regional player who is very good but can only beat a shortstop once in a while. Depending on where this player plays he could be an Open player or a "B" player.

"B" Player: A player who can break and run out (on a 9' table) one to three times in 20 games.

"C" Player: Can only runout (on a 9' table) once in 50 games.


I hope this helps you put yourself in the correct place!
 
well.....

RunoutJJ said:
I use to play in the USPPA. When i left i was an 85 (most say 100 is at the pro level) but that was over 5 year ago and im playing way better than that now. Last time i played APA in NC i was a 7 and that was almost ten years ago :eek:

I was the house pro at Belltown Billiards for awhile in Seattle so i don't know what to make of it. To the public i was a pro but if that were the case there was a lot of pro's around me. Dan Louie... Bryce... Jon Horsfall... Richie Guiler... Stan T... JD... Harry Platis... a few hustlers that stayed out of the spotlight. Shit when i played Stan i lost 7-5 and thought that was pretty good.

While at Belltown Billiards i ran Tournaments and group seminars. Worked private parties (doing trick shots and mini tournaments) and ate steak and drank wine everyday :cool:

I would think my USPPA rating should be around 115 or so. Billy Palmer was rated a 150 when i was there. Corey Deuel played once and he was put in as a 175 :eek: He had to give Palmer two games in a race to five :lol:
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Dan Louie, Stan T, and Jon Horsfall could probably all be considered pro speed....

Jaden
 
I'M fro pro!!

lets see i lost to Larry Liscotti 7-4 and was told by Larry i should have beat him 7-1,lost to Allen Hopkins 9-7, he said i should have won also,Rodney Morris beat me 9-8 and his backer told me i out played him in every part of the match and couldn't beleive i lost as the rest of the people there......am i a pro,semi pro,or just unlucky....i think i'm just a good pool player who lost to the pro's because i'm not!!!!:grin-square::grin-square::grin:
 
Pro?

Oh, and everyone on this thread gets the 5 and out w/breaks and5 games on the wire in a race to 4.........does this make me pro????
 
If using usppa as a standard

I would have to say there are too many people at 100-120 to call it pro

140 maybe , def 150+

115 I would label as semi-pro at best
unless your female

if your female, your def pro
 
hey Runoutjj would it be possible for u to make a home made video of u shooting practicing u seen me shoot lol i shot bad but anyways make a video of u practicing an send it to me on here or in private don.t matter just curious how u shoot :P
 
100 speed in the USPPA is most certainly not pro, not even close. Pro level is about 150 and up, short stop is between that and about 120.

A few years back, Tony Annigoni clocked some of the top pro's speeds during the Reno Open. The guys like Efren, Alex, Bustamante, etc were clocked at around 190 IIRC.

A 100 speed is still a very good player, probably considered an "A" class player, but can get the 5 or 6 out from the top pros and not have to like it.
 
I agree with what John Schmidt said on this subject, which was something to the tune of "if you can beat the 10-ball ghost on 4.5" pockets, then you play pro speed on some level". Obviously, beating the ghost this way doesn't necessarily mean you could compete in a pro event, but I think it's safe to say that you could use that as a benchmark, and set that as a minimum requisite for being able to compete at that level.

It's unfortunate that the predominant game of the day (9-ball) is one that often gives people misconceptions about their level of play. Even a B+ player will occasionally play a near-perfect set of 9-ball if the race is short enough, and if they happen to beat a pro in the process, then they might be tempted to think they too are a pro. Players would not have had to suffer such delusions 50 years ago, because a 60 ball runner would have had virtually no chance of beating a 260 ball runner, and the 160 ball runner would have been quite certain that he could get out there and mix it up a bit. What can you say about someone's speed if he has ran 5 racks of 9-ball? Not much, really; he could be a B player with a great break, or a champion with a weak one.

As always, JMHO
Aaron
 
the good old days

Aaron_S said:
I agree with what John Schmidt said on this subject, which was something to the tune of "if you can beat the 10-ball ghost on 4.5" pockets, then you play pro speed on some level". Obviously, beating the ghost this way doesn't necessarily mean you could compete in a pro event, but I think it's safe to say that you could use that as a benchmark, and set that as a minimum requisite for being able to compete at that level.

It's unfortunate that the predominant game of the day (9-ball) is one that often gives people misconceptions about their level of play. Even a B+ player will occasionally play a near-perfect set of 9-ball if the race is short enough, and if they happen to beat a pro in the process, then they might be tempted to think they too are a pro. Players would not have had to suffer such delusions 50 years ago, because a 60 ball runner would have had virtually no chance of beating a 260 ball runner, and the 160 ball runner would have been quite certain that he could get out there and mix it up a bit. What can you say about someone's speed if he has ran 5 racks of 9-ball? Not much, really; he could be a B player with a great break, or a champion with a weak one.

As always, JMHO
Aaron
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Today is today and not 50 years ago. There is no such thing as a champion with a weak break. Even in 14.1.:smile:
 
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