Pro Pool tours... why do they fail?

back2good1

back2good1

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pool it probably the most widely played sport that does not have an actual pro tour... aside from badminton of course.

The IPT's eyes were bigger than their stomach... but what about all the other ones? What happened to the Camel tour?

In my opinion these players don't need $1,000,000 purses to make a living. A $50,000 added event with a $500 + entry fee tourney every month would probably support a bunch of pro players. <-- if the IPT would have done that they would probably still be in business and it would have still been the best thing to ever happen to pool.

thoughts?
 
I'll probably get roasted for saying this, but I believe pool fails to have a Men's pro tour for two reasons: money and arrogance. We got not nearly enough of one and way too much of the other.

You mentioned a $50K event every month, $600K a year just in added money would require some large sponsors, and that does not include venue, set-up, TD's, etc etc. You'd be talking at well over $1M a year.

Then there's the decision on who's going to be tour president. That seems to have caused much anxiety over the years. The BCA seems to kowtow to the big industry...the WPA seems to be OK. I remember when there were two tours and one tour made the players sign a contract that they would only play in their tourny's...

Maybe if they'd get a former WPBA president to manage a tour it could be succesful...

Jim
 
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Problem 1 - there is no cohesiveness within our industry. We have too many people putting on too many events. We need to collectively sit down and pool our resources together. Until that happens, pool will be at a standstill.

Problem 2 - Building the sport should come before building individual bank accounts - or tournament purses. Until everybody within the industry (to include the players) decides to cooperate and set goals for growth - then nothing significant will happen.

The Camel Tour was a great idea if we only had 10 professional players on our tour. In the end it failed because the marketing team of Larry Kiger and Wayne Robertson at RJ Reynolds decided that they could not market their products through professional pool (they didn't try very hard), but they could market their products via bar leagues. By that time Mackey was up to his neck in the deal and couldn't do anything to save the tour or himself. He decided to court another tobacco company (Phillip-Morris) while still under contract with RJ Reynolds and got caught. Mackey's heart was in the right place, but his major mistake was putting all of our eggs into one basket. All we have to show for the Camel deal are some collector ashtrays and some cartoons of Joe Camel playing pool with his cap on backwards.

The IPT was a much better tour, but poorly organized and poorly funded. In the future we need to look at long term contracted sponsorship where our tour is protected legally from all directions. Unless we do that, we will continue be an easy victim for the next financial savior that comes along.
 
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With the gambling in the fray, too many sponsors do not want to get involved in something that may be fixed. This is not wrestling where the outcome is overshadowed by great drama and entertainment. If we are going to be a sport that loves the "action" of Derby City or even the little wagers at your local pool hall; we will have to accept that most commercial sponsors are going to be a bit nervous about throwing millions of dollars at us. That was part of a controversy with the Camel tour remember? Someone lost a match and then claimed there was a side bet where he made money. True or not, integrity flys out the window at that point. Add to that some pros demanding appearance fees or not showing up because of side action at a local hall. Camel did not want to deal with all that drama. If you can't keep a sponsor that kills tens of thousands of people each year because of your reputation? Sheesh...what does that tell you about our sport?

Jeanette Lee taught the pool world that image and professionalism will make you more money than tournaments. She invented this alter ego of the Black Widow and now makes more money than most the men. I notice more European players taking the high road than Americans. Ralf Souquet is always dressed up, always professional acting. Same with Mika Immonen and I noticed Neils Feijen this week at Derby taking that same route. The days of not combing your hair, not shaving, wearing baggy jeans and weighing 400 pounds are out if you want to make money. You have to LOOK professional and ACT professional at all times to keep the integrity of the sport at a higher level. Landon Shuffet is about 12 years old and is more professional and polite than half the men's pro tour. Seems that his father is guiding him down the right path to success. John Schmidt is also a class act that I have never seen act like a fool. Always shaven, hair is combed, sport coat or jacket most the time. He gets kudos for that. Teach the rest of the pros how to act and dress John!!! The womens tour is doing better than the mens right now. The mens tour should swallow some pride and start following their lead.

Just one persons opinion. ;)
 
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possible sponsors

Just wondering... why dont any of the big beer brands sponsor? Bud, Coors, anyone?


-Back2good1
 
Pool needs to follow NASCAR. When stock car racing started out it was rag tag and unorganized. One guy stepped in and organized all of the tracks to work together. They started a circuit and it took off from there. It didn't happen over night but if you look at the history of any pro sport leagues there were a lot of rough times before they developed into the leagues they are today. The first few Superbowls weren't sold out and now it is the biggest event of any playoff championship game in the USA.
 
TheBook said:
Pool needs to follow NASCAR.
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Yeah! Because then we could have our own potatoes too! :D

0413NascarPotatoes.jpg
 
Pool tours fail because unless you're a hardcore fan it sucks as a spectator sport. Fewer spectators means fewer advertisors and therefore less money. I will stand by saying that it needs something to make it interesting to the average joe for viewing. It's one of the most participated in sports/games going so there has to be something that can make it take off and fly one of these days.
 
TheBook said:
Pool needs to follow NASCAR. When stock car racing started out it was rag tag and unorganized. One guy stepped in and organized all of the tracks to work together. They started a circuit and it took off from there. It didn't happen over night but if you look at the history of any pro sport leagues there were a lot of rough times before they developed into the leagues they are today.
Click to expand...


Did you know that NASCAR originated from a shady bunch of characters too. The grass roots of NASCAR began by the local bootleggers who were runnin moonshine gettin together to race their cars to decide who had the fastest car.

Also, the first major televised race had a big wreck at the end, which resulted in a big fist fight on national TV.

Maybe that's what we need. We need to have Cliff Joyner play a lock up safe on Earl Strickland in the final case game which causes Earl to finally lose it completely and start whaling Haymakers at Cliff on national TV.

Lets just throw out the concept of a "Gentleman's Game" thats boring, no one wants to see that kind attitude, its boring and doesn't sell.
 
Pool is big around the rest of the world like soccer. England has hundreds of thousands of dollars thrown at the snooker events. They are televised all the time. I about choked on my coffee when I heard Beckham was getting 50 mil a year from LA in a US based soccer league. Where the hell did they get the money for that? I would bet if you combined all the salaries from all the MLS teams it still wouldn't match the 250 mil he will make in the next 5 years. There is no way they will make that back in soccer ball or jersey sales.

There is a pretty big following when it comes to the patriot cup and the mosconi cup. Maybe if every city came up with a 5 man team and those teams played for a season and the best teams would then play playoffs for a championship then you could pick up the pride in the city and give the local players a chance to compete on a national level. It would also minimize the risk of having players throw a match because of gambling because it would not be an individual effort (I say minimize only because I have seen 8 men out). You could get funding from the community/city to sponser the team. Not that I would have time to do this but I think a team oriented competition would be something to investigate. (Of course I only say this because I live in the Pro Players mecca of Florida and we would house one hell of a team!)
 
Johnny "V" said:
There is a pretty big following when it comes to the patriot cup and the mosconi cup. Maybe if every city came up with a 5 man team and those teams played for a season and the best teams would then play playoffs for a championship then you could pick up the pride in the city and give the local players a chance to compete on a national level. It would also minimize the risk of having players throw a match because of gambling because it would not be an individual effort (I say minimize only because I have seen 8 men out). You could get funding from the community/city to sponser the team. Not that I would have time to do this but I think a team oriented competition would be something to investigate. (Of course I only say this because I live in the Pro Players mecca of Florida and we would house one hell of a team!)
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I like how you are thinking there, the hiccup is still money. Eventhough they are on a team, they would still have to be paid a hefty salary to alleviate the temptation of organized crime buying the player(s) off.

I firmly believe this is a major contributing factor as to why Major athletes are paid so much money today.

So, being optimistic, and hoping that 50K salary would be enough to keep the players honest, you are lookin at a $250K a team in player salary. That doesnt even include per diem and traveling costs for the team or a venue to play at.

Believe me, the more you think about it, the more depressing it becomes.
 
cueandcushion said:
....Teach the rest of the pros how to act and dress........
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This is extremely important, and not enough of the men pros buy into its importance. Still, I'll take it a step further. A pro should take just as much pride in their demeanor and appearance when they go into any poolroom, and even fewer buy into that.

I've seen pros playing in poolrooms in T-shirts not tucked in, backward baseball caps, superbaggy shorts, tank tops, even one wearing a shirt having a huge advertisement for Bacardi Rum. Pros must take themselves seriously if they expect others to do so.

As for behavior, there is no peer pressure in the world of men's pro pool to behave properly. What pro has ever walked up to Earl Strickland and taken vocal exception to the way Earl, through his outbursts of unprofessionalism, some of them directed at fans, drags down the image of his sport, and makes it so difficult for people to place professional pool players on the pedestal they wish to occupy. As bad as that, Earl has a whole slew of apologists, both inside and outside the pro arena, who feel that his undeniable excellence as a player excuses such indiscretions. What pro has ever taken a pro that quits in mid-match in front of paying fans to task? Poor, unprofessional, behavior is too common in our sport, and one of the key reasons is that the players have, for the most part, chosen not to police themselves in any way.

The ladies of the WPBA are so superior to professional men when it comes to demeanor and appearance. That's one reason they have a tour that has had sustainable long-term growth for 30 years now.
 
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The old adage "Dress for where you want to be, not where you're at." comes to mind.
 
Blackjack said:
Problem 1 - there is no cohesiveness within our industry. We have too many people putting on too many events. We need to collectively sit down and pool our resources together. Until that happens, pool will be at a standstill.

Problem 2 - Building the sport should come before building individual bank accounts - or tournament purses. Until everybody within the industry (to include the players) decides to cooperate and set goals for growth - then nothing significant will happen.

The Camel Tour was a great idea if we only had 10 professional players on our tour. In the end it failed because the marketing team of Larry Kiger and Wayne Robertson at RJ Reynolds decided that they could not market their products through professional pool (they didn't try very hard), but they could market their products via bar leagues. By that time Mackey was up to his neck in the deal and couldn't do anything to save the tour or himself. He decided to court another tobacco company (Phillip-Morris) while still under contract with RJ Reynolds and got caught. Mackey's heart was in the right place, but his major mistake was putting all of our eggs into one basket. All we have to show for the Camel deal are some collector ashtrays and some cartoons of Joe Camel playing pool with his cap on backwards.

The IPT was a much better tour, but poorly organized and poorly funded. In the future we need to look at long term contracted sponsorship where our tour is protected legally from all directions. Unless we do that, we will continue be an easy victim for the next financial savior that comes along.
Click to expand...

Hey Blackjack,
you summarized it very well.
 
back2good1 said:
Just wondering... why dont any of the big beer brands sponsor? Bud, Coors, anyone?


-Back2good1
Click to expand...

The APA has had beer sponsorship for years, the market is much better there and the organization and the beer drinkers. I think Amberbock was or may still be the flag.
 
sjm said:
This is extremely important, and not enough of the men pros buy into its importance. Still, I'll take it a step further. A pro should take just as much pride in their demeanor and appearance when they go into any poolroom, and even fewer buy into that.

I've seen pros playing in poolrooms in T-shirts not tucked in, backward baseball caps, superbaggy shorts, tank tops, even one wearing a shirt having a huge advertisement for Bacardi Rum. Pros must take themselves seriously if they expect others to do so.

As for behavior, there is no peer pressure in the world of men's pro pool to behave properly. What pro has ever walked up to Earl Strickland and taken vocal exception to the way Earl, through his outbursts of unprofessionalism, some of them directed at fans, drags down the image of his sport, and makes it so difficult for people to place professional pool players on the pedestal they wish to occupy. As bad as that, Earl has a whole slew of apologists, both inside and outside the pro arena, who feel that his undeniable excellence as a player excuses such indiscretions. What pro has ever taken a pro that quits in mid-match in front of paying fans to task? Poor, unprofessional, behavior is too common in our sport, and one of the key reasons is that the players have, for the most part, chosen not to police themselves in any way.

The ladies of the WPBA are so superior to professional men when it comes to demeanor and appearance. That's one reason that have a tour that has had sustainable long-term growth for 30 years now.
Click to expand...


SJM,

Scape goating Earl for pool`s inherited problems should stop and it is unfair.There is no data to support your assertion.
Professional Boxing is still booming even after the whole world saw mike Tyson having breakfast on his opponent`s ear.
NBA is booming even after the whole world had seen what happened in Pontiac between Indiana and some body
Baseball is booming even after that great player Pete rose did all that
I can keep going giving so many examples.Earl never raised his hand on anybody.
It is also not fair to put burden on the pros to look like preppi boys all the time when they could hardly pay their bills.If they are give enough money,I bet many of them may improve their grooming.Tuxedos did not do any thing for the pool.:cool:
 
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Johnny "V" said:
Pool is big around the rest of the world like soccer. England has hundreds of thousands of dollars thrown at the snooker events. They are televised all the time. I about choked on my coffee when I heard Beckham was getting 50 mil a year from LA in a US based soccer league. Where the hell did they get the money for that? I would bet if you combined all the salaries from all the MLS teams it still wouldn't match the 250 mil he will make in the next 5 years. There is no way they will make that back in soccer ball or jersey sales....
Click to expand...

Actually, only a small portion of the reported $50 million per year that Beckham will be make will be from salary. The lion's share of the money is being paid through endorsement deals, merchandising, etc.

This is mostly rumor as the details of the contract have not been made public. But, insiders estimate that Beckham's salary will be in the $8-9 million/year range.

Still a lot of money, but considering the attention he will bring to the league, probably worth it.
 
vagabond said:
SJM,

Scape goating Earl for pool`s inherited problems should stop and it is unfair.There is no data to support your assertion.
Professional Boxing is still booming even after the whole world saw mike Tyson having breakfast on his opponent`s ear.
NBA is booming even after the whole world had seen what happened in Pontiac between Indiana and some body
Baseball is booming even after that great player Pete rose did all that
I can keep going giving so many examples.Earl never raised his hand on anybody.
It is also not fair to put burden on the pros to look like preppi boys all the time when they could hardly pay their bills.If they are give enough money,I bet many of them may improve their grooming.Tuxedos did not do any thing for the pool.:cool:
Click to expand...

Agreed, Vagabond, scapegoating Earl is not fair, nor is it what I'm doing. I chose to use a well-known rather than an obscure perpetrator of poor decorum to make my point. Earl is just one example,and cannot be called upon to answer for the many behavioral indiscretions of all pro players.

Indeed, the points you make are all valid. However, it would be more accurate to state that those in sports that have already captured the public's imagination and won their entertaiment dollars, some can get away with just about anything.

It is when a sport is striving for acceptance that it's players must rise to a higher level of demeanor and decorum. Far more salient than the actions of Pete Rose are those of the Black Sox, the 1919 White Sox team that threw the World Series when baseball was still an emerging sport. Baseball lost some of its sponsorship and very nearly went bankrupt in its aftermath, after having squandered much of its good will with the paying fans.

And so, I'll stick with my view that the pro pool players must rise to the occasion and avoid conduct that works against them in the battle for respect that they must win before their sport becomes truly lucrative.

As for your assertion that there is no evidence that Earl's behavior has any detrimental effect, I have first hand evidence to the contrary. At the 2002 BCA Open, I sat next to a fellow to whom Earl was rude, and the guy vowed he'd never attend another pro pool event. Of course, I have no idea whether he did or didn't carry out his intention.

Anyway, no doubt there's some room for debate here, and my posts represent my views about and dreams for pro pool. I appreciate your sharing your views, too, and you definitely made some excellent points.
 
Any pro sports tour needs money. Money for an infrastructure. Money for prizes. Money for venues. This money comes mainly from sponsors whether they be manufacturers, retailers, or the media (TV). KT had some great ideas about this.

How do the sponsors get their money to support the sports? Spectators!!! Spectators with purchasing power for a variety of products.
What have we as players done to bring in spectators? Not much. When KT changed the format---many complained about 8 ball, the cloth, etc. When ESPN tried 7 ball---many players balked. Straight pool will never make it on TV. Nine ball with tight pockets, slow play, and little action for the TV audience to get excited about---will bury itself. 3 cushion billiards would be an excellent game for TV---but who knows enough about it to make a supporting audience.

I'm sorry that I have not made positive suggestions---but I hope that we start to think in the right direction.
 
cueandcushion said:
With the gambling in the fray, too many sponsors do not want to get involved in something that may be fixed. This is not wrestling where the outcome is overshadowed by great drama and entertainment. If we are going to be a sport that loves the "action" of Derby City or even the little wagers at your local pool hall; we will have to accept that most commercial sponsors are going to be a bit nervous about throwing millions of dollars at us. That was part of a controversy with the Camel tour remember? Someone lost a match and then claimed there was a side bet where he made money. True or not, integrity flys out the window at that point. Add to that some pros demanding appearance fees or not showing up because of side action at a local hall. Camel did not want to deal with all that drama. If you can't keep a sponsor that kills tens of thousands of people each year because of your reputation? Sheesh...what does that tell you about our sport?

Jeanette Lee taught the pool world that image and professionalism will make you more money than tournaments. She invented this alter ego of the Black Widow and now makes more money than most the men. I notice more European players taking the high road than Americans. Ralf Souquet is always dressed up, always professional acting. Same with Mika Immonen and I noticed Neils Feijen this week at Derby taking that same route. The days of not combing your hair, not shaving, wearing baggy jeans and weighing 400 pounds are out if you want to make money. You have to LOOK professional and ACT professional at all times to keep the integrity of the sport at a higher level. Landon Shuffet is about 12 years old and is more professional and polite than half the men's pro tour. Seems that his father is guiding him down the right path to success. John Schmidt is also a class act that I have never seen act like a fool. Always shaven, hair is combed, sport coat or jacket most the time. He gets kudos for that. Teach the rest of the pros how to act and dress John!!! The womens tour is doing better than the mens right now. The mens tour should swallow some pride and start following their lead.

Just one persons opinion. ;)
Click to expand...


Speaking of looking professional I want to take this opprotunity to give kudos to Thorsten Hohmann who was dressed quite resplendently and professionally when I saw him competing at last weeks DCC. One look was all it took to think "Now that guy is a champion."
 
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