Proposed TAR - TOI VS NO AIMING SYSTEM

[pt109]

I have been confused by one-pocket players.
I have confused many 9-ball players at one-pocket.

I have never been confused playing 9-ball......
...I've been outshot sometimes though.

....and yes, I have played 'roll-out' and Texas Express for decent stakes.

So, I'm buying what SJD is selling.....

....eBay has headquarters in San Jose........coincidence?

 

[CJ Wiley]

There's many people in this country that are ok with "getting their hands dirty".

I think it's great for gambling. But we'll just have to disagree that it would sell to the general public.

By all means though, please prove me wrong.

Sell to the general public? You mean on real TV, not streaming video?

So doing the same thing, getting the same results of NOT getting any public interest is somehow better?

No one is even debating with me enough to understand what my strongest points are, like hitting sides of the pockets at will.....favoring the "Pro Side" of the sides, and corners to give yourself the best chance at a "two way shot".

There is ALWAYS a way to maneuver to get a "two way shot" if you know the deep level strategy of 'Two Shot Shoot Out"......How many people know this "deep level"?

Nobody has even brought up the strongest factors and no one has pointed out a single shot that you play in One Pocket that you can't in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball. Also, no one has tried to understand the question of the percentage difference between offensive shots and defensive shots in each game.

'Two Shot Shoot Out' is one of the most advanced games ever played on a pool table, but like chess, you can't understand it if you don't know how the pieces move and the table is played in offensive and defensive situations. Strategically hitting sides of the pockets is essential to play this game at the world class level, it's not in "One Foul".

It's at least 10 times more strategic than One Foul and more difficult that One Pocket. I will bet on this and debate anyone in the world on video that wants to take the "other side" of One Pocket or 'One Foul Ball in Hand'.

So far all the One Pocket supporters can do is insult and talk about me washing dishes, and what's so degrading about washing dishes anyway? Are you guys so much better than people that do manual labor? I'm in the service industry and we ALL wash dishes, sweep floors, clean tables and wash towels......there's many people in this country that are ok with "getting their hands dirty".....am I so bad for being one of them? 'The Game is the Teacher'

Obviously, you are not burdened with that realization, and you assume that just flapping your gum's, somehow ADDS to the subject at hand !..You couldn't be more wrong, but I'm sure you'll keep trying to impress us !..Do I harrass you guy's when you, and the Coyote are washing dishes over at the truck stop ?.. No I don't !..I would appreciate the same consideration when I am doing what I do best !..Thank you !

El Roadrunner - SJD

 

[CJ Wiley]

You've definitely been out shot a few times..

I have been confused by one-pocket players.
I have confused many 9-ball players at one-pocket.

I have never been confused playing 9-ball......
...I've been outshot sometimes though.

....and yes, I have played 'roll-out' and Texas Express for decent stakes.

So, I'm buying what SJD is selling.....

....eBay has headquarters in San Jose........coincidence?

You've been out shot a few times.....and if you've played Buddy, Earl, Johnny, Sigel, Varner, and Rempe, it's probably quite a few times.

Most One Pocket players that don't play 9 Ball have trouble shooting at a "white flag".

You didn't respond to the question about percentages of offense to defense and I didn't think you could/would. Let's keep the discussion on a positive note and information based kind sir. Your pool room talk is cute and all, but we've "heard it all" before.

How about this question: Name three specific shots that come up in One Pocket that can't come up in Two Shot Shoot Out 9 Ball and define why they are more difficult.

Specify any stroke shot that's more difficult to execute than any shot in 9 Ball.

Specify a safety that more difficult in One Pocket than it is in Two Shot Shoot Out 9 Ball.

Then at least we can move past you trying to call out names, and insults to more of a productive debate. Trying to belittle others is a character defect that doesn't favor someone that's in a hall of fame, or representing pocket billiard's game of "one pocket"

"Professionalism is the Teacher' .

 

[BeiberLvr]

I would like to give a hypothetical situation, because lord knows, we don't get enough of those around here.

Take Efren and Earl in their prime. Make them play 10 sets of one pocket and 10 sets of two-foul nine ball. Each set is 10-ahead. It wouldn't surprise me to see them split the nine ball sets, but you're fooling yourself if you think Earl even has a chance of winning more sets against Efren in one pocket.

The notion that top rotation players today are doing well in one pocket tournaments is a moot point. For the simple facts that there aren't very many of them, and all of them are short races. Put any top rotation player against a top one pocket player in a long one pocket set, and the rotation player doesn't stand a chance.

 

[JB Cases]

I would like to give a hypothetical situation, because lord knows, we don't get enough of those around here.

Take Efren and Earl in their prime. Make them play 10 sets of one pocket and 10 sets of two-foul nine ball. Each set is 10-ahead. It wouldn't surprise me to see them split the nine ball sets, but you're fooling yourself if you think Earl even has a chance of winning more sets against Efren in one pocket.

The notion that top rotation players today are doing well in one pocket tournaments is a moot point. For the simple facts that there aren't very many of them, and all of them are short races. Put any top rotation player against a top one pocket player in a long one pocket set, and the rotation player doesn't stand a chance.

Why would you say that? You think Earl was incapable of learning to play one pocket? Even Efren had to learn how to play it.

I promise you that towards the end of the first ten ahead set in one pocket Earl would know just about all he needs to know to play top level one pocket.

I mean I understand the sentiment here but you guys are thinking about YOUR level of play and how hard each game is for you. One pocket for me is MUCH harder than 9-ball only because I still make the wrong moves and don't execute as well as I should.

Thinking that high level one pocket is beyond the reach of guys like Strickland in his prime is foolish in my opinion. That's like saying it would be impossible for Nascar drivers to be good Formula1 drivers or vice versa. At that level they know everything there is to know about driving and have to learn the particular nuances that are unique to each discipline.

 

[CJ Wiley]

When they play rotation in the Philippines they don't play 'One Foul Ball in Hand'

I would like to give a hypothetical situation, because lord knows, we don't get enough of those around here.

Take Efren and Earl in their prime. Make them play 10 sets of one pocket and 10 sets of two-foul nine ball. Each set is 10-ahead. It wouldn't surprise me to see them split the nine ball sets, but you're fooling yourself if you think Earl even has a chance of winning more sets against Efren in one pocket.

The notion that top rotation players today are doing well in one pocket tournaments is a moot point. For the simple facts that there aren't very many of them, and all of them are short races. Put any top rotation player against a top one pocket player in a long one pocket set, and the rotation player doesn't stand a chance.

Efren plays a good game of one pocket that's for sure, but he could never beat Earl a set of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball.....Earl would dominate him in a way that would be embarrassing. 'The Jump Shot is the Teacher'

PS: When they play rotation in the Philippines they don't play 'One Foul Ball in Hand' so there is spot shots and strategy involved, where there isn't in One Foul in the USA.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Why would you say that? You think Earl was incapable of learning to play one pocket? Even Efren had to learn how to play it.

I promise you that towards the end of the first ten ahead set in one pocket Earl would know just about all he needs to know to play top level one pocket.

I mean I understand the sentiment here but you guys are thinking about YOUR level of play and how hard each game is for you. One pocket for me is MUCH harder than 9-ball only because I still make the wrong moves and don't execute as well as I should.

Thinking that high level one pocket is beyond the reach of guys like Strickland in his prime is foolish in my opinion. That's like saying it would be impossible for Nascar drivers to be good Formula1 drivers or vice versa. At that level they know everything there is to know about driving and have to learn the particular nuances that are unique to each discipline.

No, what I'm saying is that Earl would never be able to master one pocket as well as Efren. John, I know you like to believe that anyone is capable of anything (barring any physical limitations), but that's not the case in the real world.

We all have caps on how much we can learn and improve. All of the skills that pros posses (aiming, fundamentals, pattern play,etc.) can be learned by pretty much anyone. There are three skills that they all share that really can't be learned (for the most part), and those are; memory, creativity, and the ability to perform under pressure.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Efren plays a good game of one pocket that's for sure, but he could never beat Earl a set of 'Two Shot Shoot Out' 9 Ball.....Earl would dominate him in a way that would be embarrassing. 'The Jump Shot is the Teacher'

PS: When they play rotation in the Philippines they don't play 'One Foul Ball in Hand' so there is spot shots and strategy involved, where there isn't in One Foul in the USA.

I'm a little confused, CJ.

You're saying that when they play rotation in the Philippines, there is no ball in hand, and some of the strategies are the same as two foul 9 ball. It's almost the same game except a few differences, and one of them being rotation has 6 more balls on the table.

So Efren Reyes, who was for many years, considered to be the best rotation player in the world. Would be dominated by Earl. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

You are correct, Earl plays great one pocket, he just doesn't like the game very much

Why would you say that? You think Earl was incapable of learning to play one pocket? Even Efren had to learn how to play it.

I promise you that towards the end of the first ten ahead set in one pocket Earl would know just about all he needs to know to play top level one pocket.

I mean I understand the sentiment here but you guys are thinking about YOUR level of play and how hard each game is for you. One pocket for me is MUCH harder than 9-ball only because I still make the wrong moves and don't execute as well as I should.

Thinking that high level one pocket is beyond the reach of guys like Strickland in his prime is foolish in my opinion. That's like saying it would be impossible for Nascar drivers to be good Formula1 drivers or vice versa. At that level they know everything there is to know about driving and have to learn the particular nuances that are unique to each discipline.

You are correct, Earl plays great one pocket, he just doesn't like the game very much.
(Johnny Archer doesn't like it either and he's a champion straight pool player, Bonus Ball Player and rotation game player, One Pocket just doesn't interest him at all)

He got to the finals of the Derby City One Pocket Championships and was one shot away from beating Shane (who had recently learned to play One Pocket) in the finals and missed a key shot.....it happens. That week Earl was the 2nd best One Pocket player, there's no taking that away from him, he certainly earned it against the field.

Over the years it's been taken for granted that One Pocket is harder than 9 Ball and it is more difficult than "One Foul Ball in Hand," but it ISN'T more difficult than 'Two Shot Shoot Out'......one foul 9 ball just doesn't have much strategy, you try to run out, or try to play safe......or "kick" to try not to give your opponent "ball in hand".....that's about all there is to it.

In "Two Shot Shoot Out" there is thousands of situations that can come up because the players control the game's situations and you virtually NEVER win on a safety. That's a HUGE difference. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

Efren's strongest advantage is his kicking skills and they would be taken away.

I'm a little confused, CJ.

You're saying that when they play rotation in the Philippines, there is no ball in hand, and some of the strategies are the same as two foul 9 ball. It's almost the same game except a few differences, and one of them being rotation has 6 more balls on the table.

So Efren Reyes, who was for many years, considered to be the best rotation player in the world. Would be dominated by Earl. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Yes, Earl would roll out to shots that Efren can't make very well....it may still be close at times, but Earl would have a far bigger advantage playing "Two Shot Shoot Out'......both of them would tell you the same thing, Efren's strongest advantage is his kicking skills and they would be taken away.

Efren's never been the pure shot maker that Earl's been in his career. I've played them both many, many hours, and it's obvious in how they approach the game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Efren is the best all around player of all time mostly because of his ability to....

No, what I'm saying is that Earl would never be able to master one pocket as well as Efren. John, I know you like to believe that anyone is capable of anything (barring any physical limitations), but that's not the case in the real world.

We all have caps on how much we can learn and improve. All of the skills that pros posses (aiming, fundamentals, pattern play,etc.) can be learned by pretty much anyone. There are three skills that they all share that really can't be learned (for the most part), and those are; memory, creativity, and the ability to perform under pressure.

Earls' memory is better/as good as Efren's, he can remember virtually every shot he plays in pool, golf, and even tennis.

Earl's creativity is just as good as Efren's, although he has a different style of play.

Earl's ability to perform under pressure is as good or better than Efren's with 6 US OPENs, 5 World Titles and MANY, MANY, other events under his belt. Efren obviously has many titles himself and I, for one believe Efren is the best all around player of all time mostly because of his ability to transfer billiard knowledge to pool games.

Earl is more than capable of beating Efren at one pocket and is even potentially the favorite on a 10' table that everyone agrees is more difficult than a 9' table.

We'll have to agree to disagree. 'The Game is Our Teacher'

 

[seven_7days]

Earl's ability to perform under pressure is as good or better than Efren's with *6 US OPENs, 5 World Titles and MANY, MANY, other events under his belt.

*5 US Opens, not 6.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Yes, Earl would roll out to shots that Efren can't make very well....it may still be close at times, but Earl would have a far bigger advantage playing "Two Shot Shoot Out'......both of them would tell you the same thing, Efren's strongest advantage is his kicking skills and they would be taken away.

Efren's never been the pure shot maker that Earl's been in his career. I've played them both many, many hours, and it's obvious in how they approach the game.

Mr. Carson J. Wiley,

Per your request, I shall tone down the 'silly' Coyote/Roadrunner references !.. I thought it
added a little fun, to an otherwise repetitious exchange of views !..If you want to trade places,
I will be the Coyote, and you can be the Roadrunner, who is always making him look foolish !.. (however, that would not be 'art imitating life' :embarrassed2

But first, let me point out something everyone has SURELY noticed !..In the last 30 posts, (700 to 730)...I have posted 3 times, Jay twice, KlokDoc twice, BeiberLvr twice, misc. poster's 6 times, and YOU an overwhelming 15 times ! (often quoting YOURSELF, 2 or 3 times)

This comes as no surprise, as you obviously have something to sell/promote, and theres nothing wrong with that..However, you have gotten sidetracked, with your highly opinionated views, on the two most popular games we play, and the player's that play them !...Politician that you are, when you feel you are slipping, you crank up the rhetoric and propaganda !..Sorry, but it ain't workin' !

Why do I care ? Because myself, (and many others) do not appreciate your treating us as if we were school kids, and you were the 'all knowing' teacher.....it gets VERY tiring ! :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:..Jes' sayin' !

Mr. Richard J. McMorran


CJ..If I may, let me make this politcised comparison of your often 'misleading'
tactics !..:wink:..NOTE; No Coyotes were harmed, during the making of this post !..

 

[YubaCushion]

It's getting good now.:yes:

 

[jay helfert]

Earls' memory is better/as good as Efren's, he can remember virtually every shot he plays in pool, golf, and even tennis.

Earl's creativity is just as good as Efren's, although he has a different style of play.

Earl's ability to perform under pressure is as good or better than Efren's with 6 US OPENs, 5 World Titles and MANY, MANY, other events under his belt. Efren obviously has many titles himself and I, for one believe Efren is the best all around player of all time mostly because of his ability to transfer billiard knowledge to pool games.

Earl is more than capable of beating Efren at one pocket and is even potentially the favorite on a 10' table that everyone agrees is more difficult than a 9' table.

We'll have to agree to disagree. 'The Game is Our Teacher'

Hold on one big second CJ. You are saying that Earl is "more than capable" of beating Efren at One Pocket. Yes, maybe now that Efren is pushing 60 and his game is on the decline. In his prime (and Earl's too) it would have been NO CONTEST! Earl was not even in Efren's league at One Pocket, let alone capable of beating him. You just can't post crap like that on here and not have someone call you on it. Okay, carry on with your online lessons.

P.S. Efren at his best probably could have spotted Earl something like 10-7 (or 12-8) and toyed with him. And Earl would have needed more! Please save your psycho-babble for someone else who wasn't there to see Efren DESTROY the next best One Pocket players in the world. And he didn't do it by shooting more long shots and just banking balls either. He did it by playing more creatively and more strategically than anyone else on the planet. Your attacking the wrong guy here! 10' table my ass. That would only give Efren more room to work his MAGIC!

 

[CJ Wiley]

you can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.

Hold on one big second CJ. You are saying that Earl is "more than capable" of beating Efren at One Pocket. Yes, maybe now that Efren is pushing 60 and his game is on the decline. In his prime (and Earl's too) it would have been NO CONTEST! Earl was not even in Efren's league at One Pocket, let alone capable of beating him. You just can't post crap like that on here and not have someone call you on it. Okay, carry on with your online lessons.

P.S. Efren at his best probably could have spotted Earl something like 10-7 (or 12-8) and toyed with him. And Earl would have needed more! Please save your psycho-babble for someone else who wasn't there to see Efren DESTROY the next best One Pocket players in the world. And he didn't do it by shooting more long shots and just banking balls either. He did it by playing more creatively and more strategically than anyone else on the planet. Your attacking the wrong guy here! 10' table my ass. That would only give Efren more room to work his MAGIC!

We'll have to agree to disagree. Efren was at my pool room when I was playing my best on the 10' table and wouldn't play me even. You can scoff at this all you want, I'm certainly not going to try to stop you, but the facts are the facts.

On a 10' table Efren would have had his hands full playing Earl or me one pocket. On a 9' table we would have needed 8/6, but that's a table you can squeeze someone to death.The way Shane plays right now Efren would NEVER have beaten him playing on a 10' table. Again, you can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts.
The fact is Efren was never that great off the end rail and his stroke wasn't exactly powerful....of course he could make up for it with his finesse and cue ball control, although on a 10' table that would NOT hold up under the gun.

I have plenty of people that were there, a whole room full as a matter of fact, Roger Griffis was going to go in with me,(Roger played Efren and beat him that night on a 9' table with 10/5) and Tommy Rae was putting up money as well to see me play Efren EVEN on the 10' table. At that time no one would consider playing me even 9 Ball on the 10' table either (one foul or two foul).

The Truth will set you free.

 

[CJ Wiley]

you "3 fouled" on the cartoons.

Mr. Carson J. Wiley,

Per your request, I shall tone down the 'silly' Coyote/Roadrunner references !.. I thought it
added a little fun, to an otherwise repetitious exchange of views !..If you want to trade places,
I will be the Coyote, and you can be the Roadrunner, who is always making him look foolish !.. (however, that would not be 'art imitating life' :embarrassed2

I have to say you "3 fouled" on the cartoons.

 

[SJDinPHX]

I have to say you "3 fouled" on the cartoons.

Hold on one big second CJ. You are saying that Earl is "more than capable" of beating Efren at One Pocket. Yes, maybe now that Efren is pushing 60 and his game is on the decline. In his prime (and Earl's too) it would have been NO CONTEST! Earl was not even in Efren's league at One Pocket, let alone capable of beating him. You just can't post crap like that on here and not have someone call you on it. Okay, carry on with your online lessons.

P.S. Efren at his best probably could have spotted Earl something like 10-7 (or 12-8) and toyed with him. And Earl would have needed more! Please save your psycho-babble for someone else who wasn't there to see Efren DESTROY the next best One Pocket players in the world. And he didn't do it by shooting more long shots and just banking balls either. He did it by playing more creatively and more strategically than anyone else on the planet. Your attacking the wrong guy here! 10' table my ass. That would only give Efren more room to work his MAGIC!

Mr Wiley,

Mr. Helfert's sensible and astute observation's, and mine, have been almost identical, and consistent right from the start. While on the other hand, your oft expressed opinions on different games, player speed, table sizes, mental toughness, etc., seem to be at odds with just about everything we (and most of the rest of the forum) try to impart !

You seem to have had the same experiences, known the same people, and played the same games we did !...How is it you have come away with almost a completely different set of opinion's and values ?..You tend to treat almost everyone, as if they were blind, and your wisdom is the ONLY beacon that can possibly guide us to "True Pool Enlightenment" !

Isn't that a bit much ?..Haven't we have endured your 'one man' "TOI" media blitz quite well ! (which at times, felt almost like 'waterboarding')..Can't you find it in your heart, to let someone else be right, about ANYTHING ? Are we all just "pool illiterates" ?..I had hoped you would have spent more time, addressing some of these concerns, rather than brushing me off, with your "three foul cartoon" remark !..

I have a lot of spare time, but still, at my blazing typing speed, of 3 WPM...I do devote a lot of time trying to inject some humor into these 'Flame ridden' threads !..I am beginning to think, most of it sails right over your head anyway !...Like the 'truck stop-dishwashing' thingy, (which was my 'A' joke material )...All I got from you on that, was a long dissertation on the virtues of 'hard work'..which was NOT the point of.....Oh, never mind !


Over 700 hi-jacked posts..The OP must be thrilled !...
Heres some free advice for ya !

 

[franko]

Thank you

See this link:

http://www.insidepool.com/article340.html

Thank you for that, it was a good explanation along with a great story by Keith.

 

[watchez]

No, I think what they're doing in the Mosconi Cup is as good as it's going to get. We all wished they would spot the One Ball on the spot like we do in the United States, that gives the European team an incredible advantage. We have to all change our breaking style to accommodate this strange custom and none of the American players break well using the "cut break"......we ALL break well using the standard breaking technique.

Besides the break/rack being so lopsided favoring the European team we all think the rules are fine for the fast paced, happy go lucky style of the MC. It's a special event and not really about who the best players are, it's about momentum, crown support, and the entertainment......and that's great, I wouldn't change it under any circumstances. "if it's not broke, don't try to fix it, if it is broke, you MUST try to fix it - pool and it's players are broke, so the solution is obvious". - CJ Wiley

Allow me to translate your response.

You got paid what - $5,000 / $10,000 to wear your leather jacket and be the captain of the Mosconi Cup. No reason to look a gift horse in the mouth on the chance, thru self selling, that you are named Mosconi Cup captain again and get the free roll. It would be stupid for you to tell Matchroom they are wrong simply based on potential money in your pocket.

That being said, if your idea for 9 ball is so great - why not make the Mosconi Cup greater by using it. Answer - see above.