Pro's and con's of very small diameter shafts?

F

fathomblue

Rusty Shackleford
Silver Member
I'm in the market for a backup shaft for my player. Ya know, in case the tip comes off the main playing shaft, ferrule cracks, etc. Your basic tournament emergency.

My current shaft has a 12.75 mm diameter. It feels pretty nice.

However, I'm 5'5" and have very small hands. I can't ever seem to get a comfortable closed bridge.

My best friend has a 12 mm shaft and it still seems a bit bigger than I'd like. I'd love to be able to use a Pinoy style closed bridge. Just seems like it would feel firm.

A lot of the Pinoys seem to be around my size. What mm shafts are they using? Is a 11.75, or even smaller, worth trying?

Any pro's and con's to something this small? Can they still be made as an LD shaft? Any playing benefit at all or am I asking for trouble?

I was thinkin that worse case scenario, I don't like it, it stays as my backup and it rarely, if ever, gets used. If I love it, it becomes my main and the original becomes a backup.

How's deflection on small stuff like this? Prone to any increased warping or cracking? Would it be easier or more difficult to aim or apply English, due to reduced tip diameter?

What have YOUR experiences been? What are the pro's using?
 
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Closed bridge may not be comfortable not only due to the shaft diameter, but also due to the length of your fingers as well. I myself have short fingers hence my closed bridge does feel awkward when compared to other players.

There are LD shafts with a small diameter. Predator z2 for example has a 11.75 diameter. Personally I still think that it's down to personal preference.
 
Ultimately It Comes Down To What You Can Master

The biggest issue that I see is cue ball spin......unintentional, not intentionally applied english.

Here's a simple test.....doesn't matter whether you have a low deflection shaft or not........this is a test for shaft control and cue tip application.

Take any striped ball.....have an assortment of cues with different size shafts or a few cues with different size shafts......find the smallest you can and the biggest you can......and as many in various sizes as you can.

It would be great to have under 12mm, several 12mm and even 13mm size which is about the biggest I'd ever use. Are you with me so far..........Great, I knew you looked like a fast learner.

Place the striped ball on the head spot in the rack with the stripe pointing vertical (it's centered when you look directly down at the striped ball)......going too fast for ya.....just kidding....trying to keep your interest.......this test really does work.

Anyway, stroke the striped ball down to the end of the rail and try to keep it on the other rail.....watch the stripe as it rolls for any wiggle or wobble....do it several times including hitting the striped ball with sufficient roll to return and stop on your cue tip....in other words, after stroking the striped ball, don't move or lift or pull back on the cue shaft....just freeze the cue in you bridge hand leaving it perfectly still after stroking the striped ball.

Which cue shaft thickness worked best....which cue shaft gave you the most consistent, stable roll of the striped ball end over end with the least amount of wiggle, wobble or movement......it's a beautiful sight when you stroke the striped ball the length of a 9' pool table & back and observe its roll to be motionless....wiggle free.......like a tire that you're rolling down a highway by hand....you know what I mean....it just tracks straight and true.

You want to select the cue shaft size that gives you the most consistent "stroke".....the one that's the least "imperfect"....screw the other ones......if you can't send the cue ball in a "perfectly" straight line without wiggling the stripe, what happens to the cue ball when you have to shoot at a frozen object ball on the rail and you're applying english to move the cue ball afterwards in position shape........what do you think will happen when the object ball is struck but the cue ball was wiggling when it happens.......the english spin will still be there but the application won't and the object ball gets thrown off the rail going wide or missing the intended pocket.

That's just a simple illustartion.....if you can't hit the cue ball staright, then don't expect great things of your game....and you'll also avoid becoming less frustrated by unfulfilled expectations about your level of play. So pick the shaft that you get the best control in these tests.
 
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I have short, fat fingers. A standard 13 mm shaft is not comfortable, doesn't work for me. My playing cue is 11.5 mm with a conical taper, That conical taper gives a little more backbone than a "pro taper".

I know a couple Pinoy's (Both really good) that play with ultra thin shafts.
Nearly Snooker small. Put lots of spin on the ball. Nothing low deflection, just locale stuff...

I'm not sure, but I think it's as simple as the smaller diamater shafts flex more, thereby staying in contact with the cueball longer and imparting more spin on the white? But small shaft cues are like a "Hot-Rod", get out of line just a little, whatever, any error is magnified.

That's my theory.
 
I've been using a close bridge ans around 13mm tip for a long time, since the mid eighties.

I have very small hands, size 6 1/2 surgical glove. Most women have larger hands than me.

The way I see it a thinner shaft simply moves more and is more difficult to control. My JOSS cues have a stiff taper and I like it. I have tried LD and didn't like it, but I only tried it very briefly, I didn't give it a fair chance. Old habits die hard.

As far as what will work best for you, the only way to know is to try it and give it a fair chance I think.


.
 
For me personally,it would depend on the shaft.If any shaft is taken down,lets say to 11mm which is small,it could still play well if it hasn't lost
its stability.Problem is most shafts tend to buckle on power shots when its taken down to far.You need a great shaft and a equally great cue guy who understands what your looking for to make the proper alterations.
 
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kelvinling said:
There are LD shafts with a small diameter. Predator z2 for example has a 11.75 diameter. Personally I still think that it's down to personal preference.
Click to expand...

I had my Joss shaft thinned out a little after I got it, because it sort of felt wedge-shaped, so it took a little bit off of the diameter. Later on, I got a 314 for it while at our regional tournament. That felt like a tree branch, so I went back to the booth and swapped it out for a Z2. It feels fine and does the trick. Try something like that out, you may be surprised.
 
I've been shooting with a McDermott I-3 for about 3 years now. The 11.75mm tip diameter enables me to hit the cue ball with geometric precision. Just yesterday I was playing a game of 8 ball. I had an easy 7 ball in the lower right hand pocket but had 2 balls tied up about 3 inches above the lower left hand pocket. I was able to sink the 7 ball applying extreme low left hand english. This spun the cue ball across the bottom of the table breaking up the 2 clustered balls. From there, it was an easy run out - I was playing 8 ball. About 4 years ago I purchased a used McDermott I-2 with a 12.75 mm tip diameter (I was leery about going down to a 11.75mm) and liked it. Then I bought the 11.75mm I-3, played a few days with it, and I was home in clover. Tip diameters, as well as tips themselves, are a personal preference thing. What feels right to me may not be your cup of tea. If possible, your best bet is to try different tip diameters yourself and find one that feels good to you. Don't worry too much about what others use. Wish you the best in finding the right diameter shaft for your game.
 
Thats a nice test, but its hard to tell if you set up the striped ball perfectly straight to begin with. Better to use a cue ball straight up and down table.

Bavafongoul said:
The biggest issue that I see is cue ball spin......unintentional, not intentionally applied english.

Here's a simple test.....doesn't matter whether you have a low deflection shaft or not........this is a test for shaft control and cue tip application.

Take any striped ball.....have an assortment of cues with different size shafts or a few cues with different size shafts......find the smallest you can and the biggest you can......and as many in various sizes as you can.

It would be great to have under 12mm, several 12mm and even 13mm size which is about the biggest I'd ever use. Are you with me so far..........Great, I knew you looked like a fast learner.

Place the striped ball on the head spot in the rack with the stripe pointing vertical (it's centered when you look directly down at the striped ball)......going too fast for ya.....just kidding....trying to keep your interest.......this test really does work.

Anyway, stroke the striped ball down to the end of the rail and try to keep it on the other rail.....watch the stripe as it rolls for any wiggle or wobble....do it several times including hitting the striped ball with sufficient roll to return and stop on your cue tip....in other words, after stroking the striped ball, don't move or lift or pull back on the cue shaft....just freeze the cue in you bridge hand leaving it perfectly still after stroking the striped ball.

Which cue shaft thickness worked best....which cue shaft gave you the most consistent, stable roll of the striped ball end over end with the least amount of wiggle, wobble or movement......it's a beautiful sight when you stroke the striped ball the length of a 9' pool table & back and observe its roll to be motionless....wiggle free.......like a tire that you're rolling down a highway by hand....you know what I mean....it just tracks straight and true.

You want to select the cue shaft size that gives you the most consistent "stroke".....the one that's the least "imperfect"....screw the other ones......if you can't send the cue ball in a "perfectly" straight line without wiggling the stripe, what happens to the cue ball when you have to shoot at a frozen object ball on the rail and you're applying english to move the cue ball afterwards in position shape........what do you think will happen when the object ball is struck but the cue ball was wiggling when it happens.......the english spin will still be there but the application won't and the object ball gets thrown off the rail going wide or missing the intended pocket.

That's just a simple illustartion.....if you can't hit the cue ball staright, then don't expect great things of your game....and you'll also avoid becoming less frustrated by unfulfilled expectations about your level of play. So pick the shaft that you get the best control in these tests.
Click to expand...
 
I prefer a 12mm tip with a stiff taper. I don't believe I could tell the difference on 1/4mm down to 11.75. My Bender has 12mm tips and I Love it. The best thing you can do is try the smaller tip. I have a very old Viking with a 10mm tip and it plays well but I use it mostly for snooker.
 
Pros and Cons

As I see it the Pros and Cons of a thin shaft are:

Pro:
May be more comfortable for your small hands and fingers
Will be lower deflection (less end mass)
Easier to apply spin
More precise cue tip position on the cue ball

Cons:
Could be too flexible
Less forgiving if you miss hit the cue ball
Hard to re-sell

At the end of the day, try some different sizes and tapers and play with what you like. In addition to the mm of the tip, the taper and the particular wood used will make a huge difference in how the shaft plays.
 
dr9ball said:
I prefer a 12mm tip with a stiff taper. I don't believe I could tell the difference on 1/4mm down to 11.75. My Bender has 12mm tips and I Love it. The best thing you can do is try the smaller tip. I have a very old Viking with a 10mm tip and it plays well but I use it mostly for snooker.
Click to expand...

Bingo!....looks like we can lend each other cues.
12mm with a stiff taper...I call it 'low deflection' with guts.
 
11.75 is not a small diameter. I've seen a 6mm shaft (on someones regular playing cue). That's a small diameter. An advantage of a smaller diameter shaft is that it squirts less than a larger-diameter shaft made the same way (if that's what you want).
 
Bob Jewett said:
11.75 is not a small diameter. I've seen a 6mm shaft (on someones regular playing cue). That's a small diameter. An advantage of a smaller diameter shaft is that it squirts less than a larger-diameter shaft made the same way (if that's what you want).
Click to expand...

Wow, that is certainly the smallest tip I have ever heard of.

Glad someone mentioned the difficulty of selling a cue with undersized shafts.
 
Xnotedgeanymore said:
Wow, that is certainly the smallest tip I have ever heard of.

Glad someone mentioned the difficulty of selling a cue with undersized shafts.
Click to expand...

Just the other day i was thinking on the same thing .. I have big fingers 13 mm is too big for me but 12.75 or 12.50 i play great with them .. I use a lot of English and i can see a big transfer Spin to the ob with a smaller shaft.
12.75 is a great taper ...
 
Hmmmm. Lots of very interesting comments here. This brings up more questions for me.

1.) I had it in my head that a smaller diameter shaft would basically "bend" more on harder hits. So, I figured this was more deflection. But, Bob Jewett said it would have less squirt. Can someone accurately explain the difference between deflection and squirt? And are both of those characteristics more or less with a smaller shaft?

2.) What is meant by a "stiff taper"? I do understand conical tapers and pro tapers.

3.) My cuemaker is Gary Johnson and I just got a custom cue from him a little over 2 months ago. Feels better than anything I've ever hit with. Gary will make me anything I like. Is there anything I should ask him about this?

4.) I'm not worried about resale value, as I'm a packrat and rarely ever sell anything. But, that is a great point for other players that flip equipment.
 
fathomblue said:
Does anyone know what diameter shaft Efren, Busty and SVB use?
Click to expand...

I first met Efren in '91..we had a mutual friend, Brigido Quinto.
I forget what cue he was playing with but the shaft looked identical
to mine....12mm wirh a caromish taper.
 
pt109 said:
I first met Efren in '91..we had a mutual friend, Brigido Quinto.
I forget what cue he was playing with but the shaft looked identical
to mine....12mm wirh a caromish taper.
Click to expand...

This brings up a question.

What are the characteristics of a carom cue? How are they different than the typical pool cue? Specifically the shaft......
 
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