Pros shooting the last ball....please explain....

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I like to think of three things prior to shooting the last ball- 1.make the ball! 2. use whatever is needed on the cue ball in terms of speed and other variants so as not to scratch, and 3. if I were to miss - best place to leave the cue ball ( this usually only comes into play when shooting the OB toward one end of the table with the opportunity to leave the cue ball frozen or near frozen to the opposite short rail. Also- trying to make cut shots on the pro sides of pockets in case of a miss to have the OB rebound back to the middle of a rail and not sit in front of the pocket for an easy out by the opponent.
 
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straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
"Pros" is a huge zone as well. As has been pointed out, playing the cue ball is integral to every shot, even the last ball; especially the last ball for those on the noob end. For many actual players, I suspect it's a matter of habit and aesthetics - style. What bothers me is the auto concession on the last ball. I believe it's disallowed in many cases but you still see it at majors. I suppose that's etiquette but pool is a game of continuity. Suppose a player stacks 10 racks but shot none of the game balls. Is the string valid?
 

pwd72s

recreational banger
Silver Member
I like to think of three things prior to shooting the last ball- 1.make the ball! 2. use whatever is needed on the cue ball in terms of speed and other variants so as not to scratch, and 3. if I were to miss - best place to leave the cue ball ( this usually only comes into play when shooting the OB toward one end of the table with the opportunity to leave the cue ball frozen or near frozen to the opposite short rail. Also- trying to make cut shots on the pro sides of pockets in case of a miss to have the OB rebound back to the middle of a rai and sit in front of the pocket for an easy out by the opponent.
This is close to what Rodney Morris said in his "Rocket's Science" video. He didn't say to always use spin or draw...just that you shouldn't forget to play shape when shooting the money ball in order to avoid scratching.
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I’m not sure exactly what you are talking about, but this may explain it in part…

In virtually every other shot throughout the game you’re concentrating on not only making a shot, but also playing position. A lot of very experienced players and instructors contend that in order to avoid being lackadaisical on the money ball, you should at least try to play some kind of simple position with the cue ball. It might be as easy as taking it to a rail, back to center table, or even an intentional stop shot when not really needed. They contend that the act of doing that helps maintain focus and reduces the chances for the dumbass brain fart that some of us are well known for.
Absolutely correct sir!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Well this wasn't anything close to what I was hoping for. In the instructor's forum, this mushroomed into why one type of shot was better than another. Why rolling the CB allowed for greater possibility of miss-hits, kicks, etc.

Thought for sure this would get to at least 20 pages of biased misinformation.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Well this wasn't anything close to what I was hoping for. In the instructor's forum, this mushroomed into why one type of shot was better than another. Why rolling the CB allowed for greater possibility of miss-hits, kicks, etc.

Thought for sure this would get to at least 20 pages of biased misinformation.
I would have never posted this thread had I known that the one in the Instructors Forum existed. Thank goodness this one stayed civil.

That said....on either thread I am still seeing a wide variety of opinions of how to shoot these shots.

Maybe there is no right or wrong way to play these shots....just whatever the shooter is comfortable with/feels their chances are better with.

I personally almost always play these shot with center cue ball + medium speed. I have never had a problem with skid.

Some posters mention that you should play these shots in a way that if you miss you will possibly not leave your opponent a good shot. Me, I tend to prefer to keep all forms of negativity out of my pre-shot routine and just have the confidence in knowing that I'm going to make the shot (providing the shot is makeable).

It's been a good/interesting thread and if it continues....hopefully will stay civil.

Maniac
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
I would have never posted this thread had I known that the one in the Instructors Forum existed. Thank goodness this one stayed civil.

That said....on either thread I am still seeing a wide variety of opinions of how to shoot these shots.

Maybe there is no right or wrong way to play these shots....just whatever the shooter is comfortable with/feels their chances are better with.

I personally almost always play these shot with center cue ball + medium speed. I have never had a problem with skid.

Some posters mention that you should play these shots in a way that if you miss you will possibly not leave your opponent a good shot. Me, I tend to prefer to keep all forms of negativity out of my pre-shot routine and just have the confidence in knowing that I'm going to make the shot (providing the shot is makeable).

It's been a good/interesting thread and if it continues....hopefully will stay civil.

Maniac
There were attempts to pull it into the ditches but it wasn't even risqué by ABZ norms.

I'd say this thread, albeit much shorter, was more informative. It's a good thing you started it.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
My opinion is that this is done in order to:
1. Make the ball. Low outside tends to be the most consistent in ball reaction. It's not going to skid.
2. Frequently using low outside allows you to move diagonally across the table in a way which eliminates scratches.
 

pw98

Registered
Just pull up and watch some YouTube videos of recent Euro Tour matches streamed by the Billiard Network, the ones that have Earl Strickland's name in the title. They are easy to find.

Then fast forward to any game where the 9-ball is being played....very easy shot for a professional with no chance of scratching if the ball is simply rolled in. These are usually about a two-foot shot (give or take) into the corner pocket with the cue ball a couple feet away (give or take) and a slight to medium angle to the pocket.

Here's an example: Eklent KACI - Rulsan CHINAKHOV | 2020 | Earl Strickland Presents Ep.# 20 - Mosconi Ranking Event - YouTube @ 57:50 mark. Why would Kaci need to stun that cue ball as Earl said he would. I'm no pro, far from it, but I roll that ball in all day with zero spin. Sometimes the two ball are in a similar position but both closer to the pocket and they still impart, low, or side, or stun. At 1:05:30 Kaci stuns a 9-ball into the corner pocket that came closer to scratching than it would have if he had just rolled it in.

I know there must be a good reason for it. I have read a lot of good explanations so far (although they vary). I guess it must be a comfort thing subjective to each individual player.

Thanks guys for responding.

Maniac
If he rolled that ball in slowly he would risk missing it due to a skid. If he rolled it in firmly he would risk a one rail scratch. If he stuns it firmly he doesn't have to worry about either.

I think the reason they put english on the ball is because with a center ball hit that is executed well the chalk mark keep rotating in a circle (like a wheel) and the odds of contact with the chalk mark goes up. By using english you are using the whole ball and sending the chalk mark to the side and the odds of contacting it goes down. At least that is the theory....I'm not 100% convinced this will avoid it. Also, I'm not sure if this is needed because if you hit the ball firmly it shouldn't skid in the first place...
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My opinion is that this is done in order to:
1. Make the ball. Low outside tends to be the most consistent in ball reaction. It's not going to skid.
2. Frequently using low outside allows you to move diagonally across the table in a way which eliminates scratches.
One problem with low outside on this shot is that if you decelerate on the stroke which can sometimes happen under the pressure situation of a case ball shot, the resulting swerve from the outside spin will cause you to over cut and miss the shot. By contrast, when using center ball, you don’t have to calculate any possible swerve or deflection in to your aiming process.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
One problem with low outside on this shot is that if you decelerate on the stroke which can sometimes happen under the pressure situation of a case ball shot, the resulting swerve from the outside spin will cause you to over cut and miss the shot. By contrast, when using center ball, you don’t have to calculate any possible swerve or deflection in to your aiming process.
The actually problem you're describing is lack of confidence/consistency. Not with shot selection. If you're going to play the game scared, then any CB striking option could lead to potential pitfalls.

We're talking pros here. If they involuntarily half stroking balls at follow through, then there's much greater issues in their game then shot choice.
 

asbani

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I had noticed it before but really was made more aware of it while watching Billiard Network YouTube matches that recently have Earl Strickland doing the solo commentary.

What I'm seeing (and hearing from Earl) is that when the pros are shooting a money ball (most commonly in rotation and 8-ball) is that although the last ball can easily be pocketed by using center cue ball with zero chance of scratching, they usually impart some sort of low, side, or a combination of both to make the shot.

Why do they do that???

I'm going to take a wild guess, but please enlighten me with the truth. Is to negate the chances of skid?

Maniac (has always hit center cue ball on these types of shots)

No, some balls are more easier to pot using outside little low of English, that’s why most last balls are potted using outside English and sometimes a little low outside English.

If you you try to pot a ball a hundred times try low outside English then try again with a mother English you’ll see that your chances are higher with outside low English.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

ChrisinNC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The actually problem you're describing is lack of confidence/consistency. Not with shot selection. If you're going to play the game scared, then any CB striking option could lead to potential pitfalls.

We're talking pros here. If they involuntarily half stroking balls at follow through, then there's much greater issues in their game then shot choice.
Agreed, I was making aware of a potential issue with using low outside on the last shot as it pertains to amateurs, not to pros. I guess because it’s happened to me too many times.
 

asbani

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just pull up and watch some YouTube videos of recent Euro Tour matches streamed by the Billiard Network, the ones that have Earl Strickland's name in the title. They are easy to find.

Then fast forward to any game where the 9-ball is being played....very easy shot for a professional with no chance of scratching if the ball is simply rolled in. These are usually about a two-foot shot (give or take) into the corner pocket with the cue ball a couple feet away (give or take) and a slight to medium angle to the pocket.

Here's an example: Eklent KACI - Rulsan CHINAKHOV | 2020 | Earl Strickland Presents Ep.# 20 - Mosconi Ranking Event - YouTube @ 57:50 mark. Why would Kaci need to stun that cue ball as Earl said he would. I'm no pro, far from it, but I roll that ball in all day with zero spin. Sometimes the two ball are in a similar position but both closer to the pocket and they still impart, low, or side, or stun. At 1:05:30 Kaci stuns a 9-ball into the corner pocket that came closer to scratching than it would have if he had just rolled it in.

I know there must be a good reason for it. I have read a lot of good explanations so far (although they vary). I guess it must be a comfort thing subjective to each individual player.

Thanks guys for responding.

Maniac

Same as my previous comment, low outside English is the answer.

If you hear Earl say he either draw it which is a very low right English for his shot

Or stun it two rails which is again also low right English but not too low in that case.


If you notice both shots are low outside English but one is very low outside and the other is little low outside English.


So as I said to make the shot easier just use low outside English on money ball, I been playing this game all my life and I’m sure this is how it is, players don’t even think about it. It’s just a low outside English.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If he rolled that ball in slowly he would risk missing it due to a skid. If he rolled it in firmly he would risk a one rail scratch. If he stuns it firmly he doesn't have to worry about either.

I think the reason they put english on the ball is because with a center ball hit that is executed well the chalk mark keep rotating in a circle (like a wheel) and the odds of contact with the chalk mark goes up. By using english you are using the whole ball and sending the chalk mark to the side and the odds of contacting it goes down. At least that is the theory....I'm not 100% convinced this will avoid it. Also, I'm not sure if this is needed because if you hit the ball firmly it shouldn't skid in the first place...
You chalk theory is out there.

It is the roll of the cueball that causes skids. You do know a cueball gains forward roll just from rolling along the table....more evident on long shots, but present just the same. Center ball hits allow this to happen more. On a skid the cueball's top spin puts button on the object ball, the object ball breaks friction with the cloth and slides briefly going straighter...skidding. skids are much easier to produce on modern cloth. So easy that yes even a spot of chalk at the contact point can help produce it.
 

philly

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You chalk theory is out there.

It is the roll of the cueball that causes skids. You do know a cueball gains forward roll just from rolling along the table....more evident on long shots, but present just the same. Center ball hits allow this to happen more. On a skid the cueball's top spin puts button on the object ball, the object ball breaks friction with the cloth and slides briefly going straighter...skidding. skids are much easier to produce on modern cloth. So easy that yes even a spot of chalk at the contact point can help produce it.
Always had the theory that a deceleration of your stroke, even slightly, causes a skid.
I am sure foreign particles could can do it also but stroking completely through the ball will eliminate skid.
Just my two cents.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Always had the theory that a deceleration of your stroke, even slightly, causes a skid.
I am sure foreign particles could can do it also but stroking completely through the ball will eliminate skid.
Just my two cents.
The velocity of your cue has no bearing a kick/skid/whatever. The phenominom is an atypical reaction between the CB and OB during contact. This is "usually" due to the balls being unclean at the contact point. The foreign material increases friction between the balls will allow the CB to 'climb' the OB in whatever rotational direction the CB is spinning.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
The velocity of your cue has no bearing a kick/skid/whatever. The phenominom is an atypical reaction between the CB and OB during contact. This is "usually" due to the balls being unclean at the contact point. The foreign material increases friction between the balls will allow the CB to 'climb' the OB in whatever rotational direction the CB is spinning.
Although, with cut shots beyond a certain angle, there is less throw (and less skid if cling occurs) with faster shot speed. For more info, see:

throw speed effects
 

Gunn_Slinger

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’m not sure exactly what you are talking about, but this may explain it in part…

In virtually every other shot throughout the game you’re concentrating on not only making a shot, but also playing position. A lot of very experienced players and instructors contend that in order to avoid being lackadaisical on the money ball, you should at least try to play some kind of simple position with the cue ball. It might be as easy as taking it to a rail, back to center table, or even an intentional stop shot when not really needed. They contend that the act of doing that helps maintain focus and reduces the chances for the dumbass brain fart that some of us are well known for.
I was taught that very thing in the late 60' By Baltimore 'Buddy' Dennis and his road partner "Gus The Greek'. I traveled with them at times. We would talk a lot about pool. He was the one that told me to practice using 10 balls for 9 ball. Play position on the 10 ball when shooting the 9 . I didn't miss many 9 balls after that !
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The velocity of your cue has no bearing a kick/skid/whatever. The phenominom is an atypical reaction between the CB and OB during contact. This is "usually" due to the balls being unclean at the contact point. The foreign material increases friction between the balls will allow the CB to 'climb' the OB in whatever rotational direction the CB is spinning.

I've noticed that I attract more skids with a rolling ball, than with the cb struck with more velocity
the cb "climbing" definitely seems to be the thing..you don't think speed could mitigate that tho?
 
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